Did I miss something with HOS?

[greg334]

This is from the FedEx forum, I don't know what the big deal is with the electronic logging thingy but I wonder what happened to the hours of service rules.

It is important to remember the distinction between working and driving. A solo driver cannot legally drive after the 14-hour clock expires, but he/she can continue to work. If one accepts a load that delivers after the 14 hour clock ends, it is possible to drive straight through and park at the delivery location. Once there, you cannot drive until completing a legal break, but you can still work (delivery the load). It is, however, costly in time used.

For example, you start you 14-hour clock at 2 PM. You arrive at the delivery location at 1 AM for a 7 AM delivery. You have shut down and stopped driving prior to your 14-clock ending at 4 AM so you are legal. At 7 AM you log your delivery time as On Duty and when finished, then start your break. This can only work, however, with a delivery location that has available parking where you can camp out after getting unloaded. Because it is costly in time, I only do this when the pay for the load makes it worthwhile; meaning, I do it very infrequently. But, it can be done.

OK I know people sort of fudge this, so it really isn't a big deal to me as a solo to deal with moving and not moving/unloading and not unloading but maybe MYGIA means 11 hours and 3 hours of on duty time?

I don't know because I can't post in the FedEx forum AND I'M NOT PICKING ON MYGIA

But if people operate like this, then the move FedEx made is a good one. I don't agree with the move outside of safety but hey ...

SO here is my take;

I accept a load that picks up by 1500, with 500 miles of drive time and a 7 am delivery. I am a solo in my new fancy apartment on wheels working for the Fed.

My clock starts at 1400 with my pretrip (15 minutes on-duty time), and then the 30 minute drive time to the pickup (start driving at 14:15). 30 more minutes there as I'm loaded (on-duty time too) – so far I have 45 minutes of my on-duty time and 30 minutes of drive time on the fancy electronic log thingy.

I get at my delivery at 0100 and park in the dock. Remember I have a 0700 delivery.

So let's recap;

45 minutes of the 3 hours of on-duty time – leaving 2:15 from the 14 hour day

10:45 of drive time – leaving 15 minutes from the 14 hour day

Am I wrong?

The clock didn't stop with me shutting down at 0100, I can drive to 0115 but my 14 hour day ends at 0400

I seem to have a problem at that point, right?

So at 0645 I get up, start the truck, get out and open the doors and back up to the docks.

I get unloaded and have to move my truck but there is a problem I now have to move out of the docks and onto the street, which means I can't park in front of the delivery but have to move say a mile down the road. The electronic log thingy dings and tells me that I moved too far and now I am in driving status – I'm screwed. The company computers in compliance is now flashing that they have a truck that drove too far while logging sleeper berth time.

So the first thing is sleeper time I have to deal with.

The rules are clear – they have been explained to me a lot of times by the company, Colorado, Delaware, Arizona and Michigan DOT officers; if I am in the sleeper, I am in the sleeper, not moving the truck, not taking a p*ss, I am sleeping.

To stop the clock I have to have 8 hours in the sleeper. Right?

To reset the time I have 8 plus two hours that have to be logged as sleeper berth time, right?

But stopping the clock when is the real problem?

I arrived at 0100 which means I can deliver at 0900, not 0700 to be legal with 15 minutes of drive time left, or I can deliver at 1100 with on-duty time being taken for a delivery and a reset.

See what I am getting at?

This load is a team load.

So here is the other catch, I deliver at 0700 like the nice FedEx dispatchers told me to do but stupid me, I put in a POD at 0725 as a habit, now I have another problem – the electronic log thingy tried to put me into an on-duty status because delivery is an on-duty not driving thing, not an off duty or sleeper thing.

I kind of feel for you FedEx solos, I see where it will be harder for you in the future and that many will end up leaving out of frustration. I would of thought that FedEx would have addressed this but again ...

For many solos, time management is key to success.

 

[LDB]

The 14 hour clock is the cutoff for legal driving time not legal working time. When you start the clock with your pretrip you are allowed to drive during the 14 hour window immediately following. You are limited to 11 hours driving. Split logging is a completely different and to me completely Greek issue. The example given in the Fedex forum is correct for the most part.

One could legally pretrip at 0800, drive 617 miles to a consignee arriving at 2145 and then hand unload the 7208 12x12x6 boxes floor loaded into a 53 footer one box at a time over the next several hours. Once done the driver gets in the sleeper for a 10 hour nap. Fully legal because the operator isn't driving after the 14 hour clock expires prior to taking a 10 hour break.

The problem comes in with backing into the dock and/or pulling from the dock out to the back of the parking lot to take the break after being unloaded at 0700 in the given example. Yes, it's just moving in the parking lot but it's also driving so technically it violates the HOS rules.

 

[layoutshooter]

Now, throw this into the mix. This is a team load, but a security load, guarded. Every time they stop for fuel, bathroom breaks etc, both have to be awake. When the driver goes into the truck stop to get the fuel receipt the team member is required to be awake and in the front seat or withing 25 of the truck. Same happens if you get called into a scale house. FedEx could, if they wanted to, allow trucks on guarded loads fuel at secure FedEx terminals. Porta potties take care of that problem, nothing can be done about the scale house.

Those kinds of loads can eat up hours quickly. They are almost if not impossible to run legally. I wonder if carriers that haul these loads have considered them in this mix. I wonder if the government has. Many of the guarded loads are government loads. Is it possible that the DOT and the DOD might not be on the same page?

 

[TeamCaffee]

The HOS rules have not changed just because of an EOBR's.

If you read the posts on the EOBR's it appears that many people are running illegal on paperlogs.

Layoutshooter one way to keep from having the co-driver get up is to fuel at the truckstops where you can get your receipt at the pump.

Right now FMCSA is reviewing the HOS and we need to have our voice heard. We took the time to listen in on one of the hearings that was held and there were many drivers in attendance and many on the phones getting their voices out there. There has been talk that a fifth hearing may be held at MATS. Take the time to have your voice heard not to just complain.

Check out this site to learn more.
Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

 

[Desperado]

yep rules rules till they put shippers and cons on the same pages we will be breaking the rules in one way or a nother

 

[layoutshooter]

We try to get the receipts at the pump whenever we can. Often those printers don't work. I guess we could just forgo the receipt all together. We have a legal record of that sale on the T-Check statement. No matter how you look at it these runs are hour eaters. Last year we had to do a couple of 34 hour resets because of them. We were close this week but this un-planned for break this weekend took care of it.

You are correct, the HOS problem must be addressed. There should be provisions for teams. It is up to us to make our needs known.

Part of the problem is that many of these rules/laws are not being based on any kind of sound science or medical facts. There is much evidence out there stating that multi-phasic sleep is far more natural and restful than a 10 stint in the sleeper. That is sleeping for a 4-5 stretch a couple of times a day. Perfect for team operations.

Make your voice known. You input may or may not be used or even looked at, but, you have no right to complain if you just sat there and did nothing.

 

[TeamCaffee]

yep rules rules till they put shippers and cons on the same pages we will be breaking the rules in one way or a nother

I agree with you on this. We though can be controlled through HOS and the shipper and consignee cannot.

Through us they will end up controlling the shipper and the consignee or another plan will be made.

Listening in on the hearing it was loud and clear exactly where the problem was and driver after driver brought up this exact problem.

 

[layoutshooter]

Another safety problem that is not very well addressed is the number of hours we can work in a week.

When I was with the DOD we worked long hours and rotating shifts. 6 days on, then 2 days off. Then 6 days of a different shift until you started back again. One doctor compared it to being in a constant state of jet lag. We face many of those same challenges as drivers.

We had the U of Maryland come in and do a study on errors on the job. The first thing that popped out was on the 6th day of a 6 day set, the error rate was more than 60% higher than on the 5th day. If it was a 6th midnight shift the error rate was even higher. I have to give the government credit. After spending all that time and money on that study, after a lengthy review of the data, they did nothing. No changes. Seems that, at least to the DOD, pure science is not worth all that much. Many of those jobs involved life and death. Would you want your life on the line if the person covering your butt was on a 6th midnight shift? Knowing that he/she/it is likely to make many errors? We demand those kinds of hours from drivers and accept it as "part of the business"

I wonder what driver error rates are at the end of a long week? Could our overall work week be too long? Honest scientific studies would help, but only if the regulating bodies paid attention to them.

There are many things to think about on this subject. No easy answers. I don't believe that enough time, effort or unbiased studies will be done to truly come up with a sound solution. At the end of the day I fear that politics will rule.

 

[LDB]

A large part of the problem could be solved with 5 hours being the magic number for split logging. That would allow fuel stops, pit stops, eating, etc. to be combined with driver swaps and solve that problem. It would also help with some of the issues of an 0700 delivery being outside the 14 hour window.

 

[jjoerger]

I have run into the same problem that greg334 started this thread with.
My wife and I normally run team, but she needed to take this month off so I am running solo.
He is correct. It is a team run. Any run that has more than 14 hours between pick up and delivery cannont be legally run by a solo unless it has 8 hours of extra time for a solo driver to rest in the sleeper berth.
There is one customer that will not load before 1630 and wants delivery at 0700 or 0800. Thats 14.5 to 15.5 hours.
Maybe they could load earlier or deliver later to ensure that the driver will have at least 8 extra hours to make a legal ontime delivery.

 

[nightcreacher]

Learning how to manage your time is the 1st thing in running solo.The HOS and Expedite, the challenge of every company.
400 mile load picking up at 1600 and delivering 0700 in the morning is a nightmare.You cant get your 8 hrs to stop the clock,so delivering, on time you will be over the 14 hr rule.
Some times it's hard enough to keep log legal running team,with all the Government loads our companies do,I was surprised when this HOS happened

 

[1CHINGON]

Life is too short to dwell in complicated issues. One key to survival is adaptation. FMCSA make the rules we live by. Any EOBR must follow the HOS rules. Simple. Every company choosing to use EOBR will comply with HOS. Drivers for said companies will follow those rules or will not drive. Same applies to any other changes i.e. CSA2010. My point is that any and all drivers that want to keep driving must comply with the rules, if they choose to keep driving. Easiest thing to do is to learn the new rules and keep driving. Asking questions directly to your carrier may be a good starting point. That person may just possibly learn how to adapt.

 

[layoutshooter]

Sounds like "I Robot" Like, do as your told, even if it makes no sense or is even legal or based on anything real. Other than political payoffs.

 

[1CHINGON]

No Layout, not at all. The only robots I know are the ones in the toy sections. We are people, individuals, living in a great country, were there are rules and choices. We work under the same flag, FEDEX, and that was a choice I made, to join a great company. Rules are guidelines, and like all on Earth, all around us evolves, including the rules and the company. But choice is something we get to keep. Adapt to the rules as they are made, and look for a brighter tomorrow. Don't like the rules? Protest them, call, write, e-mail, choices once again, and you have many. when the dust settles, you will have made your choice, as will everyone else. Robot? Those may be the ones that take loads at $ 0.69 per mile. I choose not to!

 

[nightcreacher]

I know most of you drive vans and box trucks,and the use of the equipment when off duty,your going to have to log.
It is a little different for us tractor trailer drivers,if we drop our trailers and cover the door signs,as we cant haul any freight now,we can be classified as a POV,but I'm sure,because you all can haul freight at all times,even when oos,you can't get around being a comercial vehicle.
Another thing to look at,you drop your truck at the garage,you home OOS,but the garage drives your truck to make sure the repairs are fixed,what is the EOBR going to do.
One other thing,if this new C-link makes you stop so you can answer, accept or decline the load opps,your in heavy traffic,no where to pull over,put on hold with phone,and your co driver is available to work the QC,but it doesnt work while truck is in motion,you just lost ,or the company might have just lost that 3000 mile load coast to coast,as you were the only truck that could make the pick up on time,and said company has now went with another company
Just something to think about

 

[Humble2drive]

I know most of you drive vans and box trucks,and the use of the equipment when off duty,your going to have to log.

Not according to FMCSA.

Personal Use of a Commercial Motor Vehicle
It is possible that occasionally you may not use a truck in commerce at all. You may be moving your personal belongings to a new house or, as a hobby you may be taking your horses to a horse show. As long as the activity is not in support of a business, you are not operating in commerce.
If you are not operating your truck in commerce, you are not subject to the hours-of-service regulations.

Reference:
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/driver/hos/fmcsa-guide-to-hos.pdf

It is a little different for us tractor trailer drivers,if we drop our trailers and cover the door signs,as we cant haul any freight now,we can be classified as a POV . . .

I am confused. How will you notify the Fed that your truck is now a pov and the eobr should not be logging you????????

 

[JimF51]

I am confused. How will you notify the Fed that your truck is now a pov and the eobr should not be logging you????????

Wouldn't you be able to enter as OOS, then the eobr doesn't kick in till you go back in service?

 

[TeamCaffee]

The EOBR is tied into your ECM. When the truck moves the logging begins.

I believe that when you use your truck for personal use such as moving someone you are to cover up all signs and numbers.

One of the other issues is when loaded you cannot use the truck for personal conveyance.

Here is more information I received from OOIDA:

From the FMCSRs, page 510. §395.8 “DOT Interpretations.” The large bound copy of the FMCSRs contains legal interpretations by the DOT of its own regulations – these interpretations are not in the small book carried by most drivers.

Regarding using a CMV as a means of personal conveyance, here is what the DOT states (BTW- this trumps any meaning of the rules by a roadside law enforcement officer and can be used as an affirmative defense in court if the driver is improperly cited by said officer).

Question 26: If a driver is permitted to use a CMV for personal reasons, how must the driving time be recorded?

Guidance: When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a drivers home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a drivers terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a drivers en-route lodgings (such as en-route terminals or motels) to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. The type of conveyance used from the terminal to the drivers home, from the drivers home to the terminal, or to restaurants in the vicinity of en-route lodgings would not alter the situation unless the vehicle is laden. A driver may not operate a laden CMV as a means of personal conveyance. The driver who uses a motor carriers CMV as a personal conveyance home, and is subsequently called by the employing motor carrier and is then dispatched from home, would be on-duty from the time the driver leaves home..

 

[jjoerger]

Thanks TeamCaffee for posting that reference. I am printing that out and keeping it with me in the truck.

 

[MYGIA]

The original scenario I described in my original post is legal, and I’m not sure why it was so confusing to others. In the example I indicated starting my log at 2 PM which would mean the 14 hours ends at 4 AM. If I arrived at 1 AM and unloaded at 7 AM, the 14-hour log for driving would have expired and I could not legally drive until the completion of a 10-hour break. Since I only had a break from 1 AM when I arrived at the dock and 7 AM when I delivered the load ( 6 hours), I am not legal to drive. At 7 AM I log all of the unloading time and the few minutes to move away from the dock as on duty. I then begin a full 10 hour break before I can legally drive.

As stated earlier, this is very time consuming and costly, so it is only done very very infrequently when the pay for the load justifies such an extensive time commitment. Perhaps I should also note that I have done this only at locations with which I am totally familiar and know in advance that once unloaded, I will be moving the truck and be parked within a few hundred feet of the dock, two locations I have frequented have allowed me to be parked safely and undisturbed for a 10 hour break having only moved the truck 100 feet away form the dock. Please note, I never stated I was leaving the delivery locations property and driving a mile or two down the road to park on the street as some have suggested in perhaps an effort to embellish the example. ( Yes, to drive a mile or 2 and park on the street would in fact be an illegal move.)

All information to date that I have seem and heard regarding the Electronic logging states that the truck can be moved up to 7/10 of a mile without the system kicking into driving mode. In my example above, as has been the actual case in all past practices, I have never moved away from the dock and driven 7/10 of a mile or move.

I have done this with every intent to be HOS compliant and only after having reviewed it with the Safety department and have had them verify to me that what I have done and logged is acceptable and legal.