CSA 2010 Question

jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
How did you rack up so many points?
Failure to obey a traffic control device is only 5 points x3= 15.

Who came up with these numbers?
A turn signal bulb out is 6 points.
Smoking within 25 feet of a hazmat load is only 1 point.
Operating a CMV without a CDL is 3 points.
Brake violations are 4 points.
Broken windshield is 1 point.
No fire extinquisher 2 points.

The more I read the crazier this gets.:eek:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
Relax, it is an example. I can't use the one I was given, but that's a close proximity to it.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Here is a real-world CSA item that happened just this morning.

Diane and I woke up this morning at the rest area on I-5 near Camp Pendleton, CA, where we spent the night. Our left fog lamp worked last night. It did not work this morning, a fact discovered on my pre-trip inspection.

Replacing the lamp meant removing the light housing from the front bumper, which required a 10 mm wrench and knowing that the housing must be removed to replace the lamp. For someone who does not have the manual or has not seen the repair done before, it is not an intuitive fix. I had the bulb, wrench and knowledge, so I fixed it and we were on our way.

Now, say a company driver or owner-operator was in that situation, under load, with the required spare bulb but without the tool and knowledge to fix it.

Just north of that rest area is a chicken coop (scale) that is often open. That leaves a borderline-CSA-point driver with the choice of taking a carrer-ending chance by heading out and going through the scale or staying put and calling road service to come out and make a repair. If the driver was friendly enough, he or she might be able to find another driver to make the repair.

The situation would be even worse if the driver ran with a carrier that was itself on thin ice regarding CSA. Under the CSA program when fully implemented, such carriers will be specifically targeted for inspections when the scale cop puts the truck DOT number into the system and the system tells the officer that carrier is targeted.

Points lead to additional inspections. Additional inspections lead to more points. More points lead to a former driver.

This is something to think deeply about and learn more about if you are a driver with a less than stelar driving record and want to buy a new truck. If your CSA points get the better of you, you will have a hard time finding a carrier to lease your truck to.

Note also that you already have a CSA points score based on your last three years of driving. It has already been compiled from your existing record. Note too that things that were no big deal in the past now matter in a big way.

For example, the warning ticket you got for speeding two years ago was meaningless then. The very same letter today is scored as a violation under CSA and those points are on your record right now. That's another criticism of the program. How do you fight a warning ticket in court to get the CSA points removed. Answer now: You can't.

It's getting to be a rough world out there for old-salt truckers who cared little for their driving record over the years as long as they could keep driving over the speed limit in the left lane while running a hot log book. Their credit has dried up making it hard to buy a new truck and if they can find credit they may not want to buy a truck because their CSA points put them just one or two more violations away from being unable to drive it.

The days of the cowboy trucker are not numbered. They are over.
 

jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
Isn't there a law against making any laws retroactive?
It seems going back 3 years is in effect doing just that.
You are being penalized for something you did three years ago that at the time did not know would be used against you when a new law took affect.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Isn't there a law against making any laws retroactive?
It seems going back 3 years is in effect doing just that.
You are being penalized for something you did three years ago that at the time did not know would be used against you when a new law took affect.

You mean if you had of known you'd be self incriminating yourself, you may have fought that ticket 2 years ago....
you paid the price once and now you'll be punished again...like double jeopardy?
 

jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
I was thinking more of the ex post facto law in the US Constitution. Article I, Section 10, Paragraph 1.

Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Or does this just apply to the states and not the Feds?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
It actual pertains to changing or editing any Law and forcing the changes on those who where under the original Law. For example when a person signed up for Social Security in 1960 any changes to the Social Security Law after this entering into the Social Security System should not justly affect the this persons age of retirement as set by the Law in 1960 or the benefits and cost. Due to Ex Post Facto those changes cannot legally effect benefits and guidelines at the time of signing. However this is ignored in general by Congress and the Supreme Court because it would undermine the powers and benefits they apportioned to themselves so that they may rule the citizenry to whom they are supposed to be responsible too.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
ex post facto law

A law intended to apply to crimes or events that took place before its passage. The United States Constitution forbids the passage of ex post facto criminal laws, on the principle that it is wrong to punish an act which was not illegal when committed.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The first definition of what exactly constitutes an ex post facto law is found in Calder v Bull (3 US 386 [1798]), in the opinion of Justice Chase:

"1st. Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action.

2d. Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed.

3d. Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.

4th. Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offense, in order to convict the offender."
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I don't know about all of that.

CSA 2010 is based on existing regulations and shifts the burden onto the states and the operators, but handing the operational requirements right to the carrier - again this is all based on existing laws.

Phil's example is slightly flawed, seeing Fog lights are not a requirement, they are rarely selected as an OOS issue. The same goes for Chicken Lights, can you imagine the stink surrounding an OOS citation when the inspection uncovers a burned out sleeper light?

I also don't agree the Trucking Cowboy is dead, long long from it.

Just another reminder that this is a constitutional regulated industry.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I don't know about all of that.

CSA 2010 is based on existing regulations and shifts the burden onto the states and the operators, but handing the operational requirements right to the carrier - again this is all based on existing laws.

Phil's example is slightly flawed, seeing Fog lights are not a requirement, they are rarely selected as an OOS issue. The same goes for Chicken Lights, can you imagine the stink surrounding an OOS citation when the inspection uncovers a burned out sleeper light?

I also don't agree the Trucking Cowboy is dead, long long from it.

Just another reminder that this is a constitutional regulated industry.


But they are increasing a penalty for violations already dealt with....if they kept the past violation at say 1 point that would be more acceptable because violations under the old rules stayed for 3 years...now it is only 2 yrs I believe...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Not really. Because the violations are still the same. The carrier has to respond to them instead of mitigating it through paper work.

The problem I see is the abuse which has been discussed by the ATA and OOIDA and me here.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
oh sure..carriers could use the CSA as an excuse in a unionized shop...but they don't need an excuse to cancel our contracts....we are disposable...always have been....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
You're not thinking like the carrier.

If they start canceling contracts while trying to maintain some sort of appearance that they care, do you think they would attract people to their company?

Using CSA 2010 gives them an out, it shifts the blame on to the owner/driver who has to deal with everything.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You're not thinking like the carrier.

If they start canceling contracts while trying to maintain some sort of appearance that they care, do you think they would attract people to their company?

Using CSA 2010 gives them an out, it shifts the blame on to the owner/driver who has to deal with everything.

putting on my carrier thinking cap.....


Yes, true....the carrier would "appear" to walk away clear..
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
I think I will stay with my cv for sometime after reading all that malarkey,,2010 rules is one pile of cow waste . What bunch of clowns wrote this thing anyway, surely truckdrivers did not do this.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
But they are increasing a penalty for violations already dealt with....if they kept the past violation at say 1 point that would be more acceptable because violations under the old rules stayed for 3 years...now it is only 2 yrs I believe...

It's two years for carriers, three for drivers. Say a driver racks up enough points in a year to get himeslf or herself fired. Those points stay with the carrier for two years, even though the driver is no longer with the company.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You're not thinking like the carrier.

If they start canceling contracts while trying to maintain some sort of appearance that they care, do you think they would attract people to their company?

Using CSA 2010 gives them an out, it shifts the blame on to the owner/driver who has to deal with everything.

Carriers don't randomly cancel the contracts of drivers that bring value to the company. If a carrier cleans house from time to time, that's a good thing. That is as long as you're doing a good enough job to not be swept into the dustpan. I don't see why it would hurt their recruiting efforts.

Even though some think we need to freak out about CSA, I'm just not feelin' it. The folks that maintain their trucks in a responsible manner will be just fine. Even if you have a headlight that burns out just as you hit the scale ramp, it's not the end of the world. If your doing your job well you shouldn't have so many points that it'll be a crisis.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
God Highway, the thing is we all want them to panic so they leave in order to get all that work.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Even though some think we need to freak out about CSA, I'm just not feelin' it. The folks that maintain their trucks in a responsible manner will be just fine. Even if you have a headlight that burns out just as you hit the scale ramp, it's not the end of the world. If your doing your job well you shouldn't have so many points that it'll be a crisis.

You are correct. If a driver who is committed to zero CSA points has the misfortune of a badly timed lamp failure and subsequent ticket, the driver will live to drive another day. However, a crisis would exist on a personal level because of the broken commitment the driver made to oneself. At least it would for me. It would be kicking myself for weeks if I got dinged with CSA points for any reason.

CSA 2010 is at least as exciting as it is troubling to me. It is projected to produce a true crisis for carriers by contributing to a driver shortage, which drives higher our value and hopefully our pay. It is already helping to get the truly bad drivers off the road which makes it safer for all of us. It puts good drivers in even better standing with their carriers as a drive who has the proven ability to drive violation free for a number of years would be highly sought by carriers who are seeking to keep their CSA points down.
 
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