transporter
Expert Expediter
true eddie but if carriers can say we already limit are cv drivers
it will take most of the fire out of the movement to legislate limits
it will take most of the fire out of the movement to legislate limits
Company rules for driving hours...
- Thread starter rodeojunkie
- Start date
The FMCSA or the government isn't going to start imposing HoS or mileage limits on light and medium vehicles, unless those vehicles start causing the kinds of accident damage that heavy vehicles cause. The DOT does, actually, have to have a reason for any changes in regulations. They have to justify it, or as has happened in the past, a judge will rule the changes as invalid.
That's 170,000 miles a year driving. Not much time for sleep.
Brisco
Expert Expediter
I too am one that will never ever team in a truck, nor can I sleep in a moving vehicle either.
One thing I don't think you've taken into consideration though is the "waiting time" that is involved in Expeditng. Do you think you could handle an 1100 mile straight through run that all of a sudden comes up at 4:30PM one afternoon after you just had a 2 day waiting period and your body kinda got used to going to sleep at 10-10:30PM and wakening at 6:30AM?
Let's say this scenario came up. You have now been up for 10 hours after a good 8 hour sleep. You're facing a 15-20 Hour drive (1100/55mph=20 hours - 1100/70mph=15 hours) starting right then. I betting that the run will be closer to 20 hours straight thru. (Traffic-Fuel-Pee Times-Etc) If you happened to pull it off, your "awake" time would now be going on 30 hours with your most alert and productive times being 15-20 hours ago.
As a carrier with a DOT Authority and Insurance costs out the wazoo, there's no way in hell I'd place that load on your van for a "straight thru" run, no matter how much of a "Super Driver" you claim to be. I'd either give you maybe 3-400 miles and a transfer, or find a team in C/D unit to get it done.
I once drove from Kingman AZ home to Ft Worth TX straight through. Almost 1100 miles. This was after a good 8-9 hour sleep in a comfortable Super 8 King Sized bed. (Not in a sleeper/CV) Left Kingman around 6AM, arrived home around 11:00PM, about a 17 hour drive. Stopped for fuel a couple of times, stopped to pee quite a few times, and was running a good 75-80MPH there between Flagstaff and Albuquerque on I-40 where the speed limit is 75MPH. This was done in a very comfortable 4 dr dually with a 350HP Cummins Turbo Diesel under the hood. Logbook showed a stay over in Albuquerque.
Would I ever do it again??? No way in hell. Stupid and unsafe trip, but dispatch ticked me off and I decided to go home for a few days. (Dispatch made me wait in Las Vegas for a couple of days waiting for this great backhaul that never came about)
So, if a company has a rule in play that will not allow a solo driver, even in a CV, to run more than a 500-750 mile "straight thru" run, then more power to them. They have my due respect cause they're not only looking out for me while I'm out on the road, but they're also looking out with safety on their minds for my Mother, my sisters, my brothers, my friends, and so on. If a driver, professional or not, says to hell with that, I can do 1000-1500 runs all day long, then that driver has lost all respect from this driver, period.
Carriers who limit cargo van drivers in length of haul or time driving do so for two reasons: To limit their liability in case of an accident, and to limit their liability in case of an accident. Personal safety of the driver or anyone else is a secondary concern, and only then if it affects their liability.
Safety Department at a motor carrier is an oxymoron, because everything they do there has nothing whatsoever to do with safety. It should be called the Compliance Department, because it's all about compliance with DOT rules and regulations. They call it the Safety Department because the Compliance Department sounds like a place for rules and regulations just sitting there waiting to be broken by a bunch of people who think rules were made to be broken. But no one wants to be thought of as being unsafe or bad drivers, because they're all Rainman, so it's the Safety Department.
The beauty of truckin' in a cargo van is that if you want to drive a bazillion hours straight through, it's real easy, man. Get your own authority and insurance and you're good to go.
Safety Department at a motor carrier is an oxymoron, because everything they do there has nothing whatsoever to do with safety. It should be called the Compliance Department, because it's all about compliance with DOT rules and regulations. They call it the Safety Department because the Compliance Department sounds like a place for rules and regulations just sitting there waiting to be broken by a bunch of people who think rules were made to be broken. But no one wants to be thought of as being unsafe or bad drivers, because they're all Rainman, so it's the Safety Department.
The beauty of truckin' in a cargo van is that if you want to drive a bazillion hours straight through, it's real easy, man. Get your own authority and insurance and you're good to go.
Don't forget the cheeseballs!
ebsprintin
Veteran Expediter
Scuba
Veteran Expediter
All you have been is lucky driving illegal does not make you a good driver just because "so far" you haven't killed someone but keep driving like that and sooner or later you will.And since you pass well over 50 road side cams a day when you do kill or hurt someone a lawyer will find the videos and you will do some jail time. Maybe you can use some of that extra money to pay a cell mate to watch out for you.
rodeojunkie
Seasoned Expediter
I will be 47 years old in 3 weeks and i still never sleep over 4-5 hours a night...don't know why, just always been that way. I had a new truck one time and at the one year anniversary of the purchase date it had 202,000 miles on it...i like to run!!! I guess it's a good thing i don't need much sleep
rodeojunkie
Seasoned Expediter
Of course not. Would you do a 800 mile run for the same freight rate that you do a 400 mile run...i think not.
rodeojunkie
Seasoned Expediter
No, driving illegal does not make me a good driver...experience and ability make me a good driver.
Tell me this...what if i take a run that is 400 miles in a cargo van going back to the yard and drop it and jump in my pickup truck and drive across three states...does that make me a bad driver because one part of the trip is partially regulated and the other part is not? All i am saying is that i don't really care for someone putting restrictions of 300-400 miles on me when i know for a fact that i can easily do more. Believe me...i am not stupid. I have turned down 150 mile runs before because i had just finished a long run and i didn't feel up to it for whatever reason. I DO NOT drive sleepy...there is no freight in the world that is worth me not seeing my children or grand daughter ever again. And if i only sleep an average of 4-5 hours at a time what is to stop me from driving 20 hours in my personal vehicle?
Does that make me a bad driver too if i do it in my personal vehicle and nobody ever knows about it?
Brisco
Expert Expediter
IMO, Answer is Yes to both questions.
rodeojunkie
Seasoned Expediter
Why would it make me a "bad driver"? I have never had an at fault accident in any type of vehicle, commercial or personal. I just don't understand your logic.
The companies I am familiar with have solo van limits of 700-750 miles straight through. No company puts 300-400 mile limits that I've ever heard of.
rodeojunkie
Seasoned Expediter
Ok, that's the answer i was looking for. It just seems like so many guys were saying that they would be forced to hand off the freight after a few hundred miles that i was starting to worry. I am by no means a super trucker. What i am is somebody that has the ability to go longer distances safely if need be. Would i like to sleep 8-10 hours a night? Sure, i would but i have never been like that. Sometimes if i am tired at 10:00 at night it stinks knowing that if i go to bed i will wake up at 2 or 3 in the morning and not be able to go back to sleep but i have learned to accept it and found a career where it suits me.
Thanks for clearing that up LDB.
"Why would it make me a "bad driver"? I have never had an at fault accident in any type of vehicle, commercial or personal. I just don't understand your logic."
The faulty logic is yours. It's an illusory corollary to draw such a conclusion solely from not having an at-fault accident. The litmus test for what constitutes a good or bad driver is not whether or not they have had an at-fault accident. Never having an at-fault accident simply means you are an at-fault accident-free driver, nothing more. And no further conclusions can be drawn from that. Some of the worse drivers have never han an at-fault accident. My mother was one of them. She was the absolute worst, but never had an accident of any kind. But a lot of stuff happened in her wake that she was unaware of.
I've seen people change lanes with no turn signal, causing other drivers to take some kind of action to prevent an accident. No accident happened, but the lane-changer is a bad driver just the same. I've seen people wait until they are 1/4 mile from their exit, shoot over 3 lanes of traffic, no accident, but a bad driver.
Everybody thinks they are either a good driver, or at least an above average driver. Everybody. Just ask them. Yet somebody out there is causing accidents. Ever gone digging for a CD? Hassled a slower driver out of the fast lane? Kept another car from merging or changing lanes? Does your driving change in any way, shape or fashion once you spot a cop? If YES to any of these, you're a bad driver. The highways are full of drivers who are rude and inconsiderate, and even though they aren't involved in an accident, they're bad drivers, because they create additional stress on the highway, which creates additional opportunities for accidents.
Contrary to what you many believe, no matter how hard you believe it or how forcefully to adhere to it, there has not been one study, ever, that supports the claim that 4-5 hours of sleep per night on a regular basis lets someone be as alert, well rested and safe on the road, as someone who gets 8-9 hours of sleep on a regular basis. Not one study. There have even been studies done with people who make such claims about themselves, and in every single case they were shown to be fooling themselves. There are people who sleep about 4 hours a night, and then once a week they'll sleep most of one day away, recovering from chronic lack of sleep. These people, too, think they are perfectly fine each and every day on 4 hours sleep, and in every case their reaction times were sluggish as compared to those who get the proper amount of sleep. Just because you are used to getting 4-5 hours of sleep, doesn't mean that's all you need. Never having fallen asleep at the wheel doesn't mean you are not driving while fatigued, either. A lack of sleep, especially a chronic one, causes slower reaction times, vision impairment, lapses in judgment and delays in processing information, and even if these are only slight, they are still there and affect your driving. Of course, Super Truckers never experience any of these things, even though they are the very people who should be banging the door down at the sleep clinic.
As for the nitty gritty of carriers limiting cargo vans, when you say to a carrier, "I am not stupid. I DO NOT drive sleepy...yada, yada, yada," do you think they've never heard that before, and a little while later the person who said that had an accident? They have. Lots of times. There are lots of very responsible cargo van drivers out there, but all it takes is a small handful of morons to have the insurance companies go nuts, and that's why carriers will limit cargo van drivers. Carrier's do only what is in their best interest, and they could give a rat's aѕѕ about you. You're not worth the liability risk, so they'll limit you in your miles or drive time.
Panther, for example, has a 900-miles or 16-hour rule, where any load of more than 900 miles will swap, unless there is enough time to take at least a 5-hour break in the load, or they'll swap you out after 16 hours since you last moved the van. If you move the van at 10AM to go pick up a load, you're 16 hour clock runs out at 2AM the next morning, and the only thing that will reset it is a 5 hour break where the van shows zero satellite movement for those 5 hours.
Among carriers who limit their cargo vans, that's a pretty lenient set of rules. You can be on a long load, drive 16 hours, sleep 5, then drive another 16 hours. You won't likely get to do that if you're passing a snotload of Panther vans along they way, as they'll swap you out near your break time anyway, unless it shows you've got plenty of time and are running way ahead of schedule. Taking a load out west, where there are fewer vans and trucks to swap the load to, you'll likely take it the whole way, but they'll force that 5-hour break just the same.
It's their authority, their rules, and you will not be able to make them change their rules just for you. They key is knowing the rules, how they are applied, and then using it to your advantage.
Other carriers have far more restrictive rules on cargo vans. And other carriers have little or no restrictions whatsoever, yet. All it takes is one court judgment against the carrier for allowing a driver to drive too long without a break and there ya go. Jurors think an 8-hour day is an exhausting one, and think an 8 hour drive is just brutal, so they're not gonna have any sympathy for someone who has an accident after driving for 22 hours straight.
It's like, if on a load and you're on the phone with your carrier (Panther for sure, don't know about the others), and you make a statement like, "I'll be glad when I deliver this, so I can go to bed," or especially if you say the magic words, "I'm tired," they're gonna swap you out before you can blink. They're gonna pull you off the road and the next available swappable spot, and park yer butt until they can find someone to swap the load to. The reason is, if they allow you to continue driving after making a statement like that, and you have an accident, the DOT will pull the phone records and all other records pertaining to the load (like the QC messages), as they do in all motor carrier accidents, and when they do, the carrier is beyond screwed when it's determined they allowed you to continue driving while fatigued. It's open and shut.
I do wish you good luck in finding a carrier that will allow you to run as you wish.
The faulty logic is yours. It's an illusory corollary to draw such a conclusion solely from not having an at-fault accident. The litmus test for what constitutes a good or bad driver is not whether or not they have had an at-fault accident. Never having an at-fault accident simply means you are an at-fault accident-free driver, nothing more. And no further conclusions can be drawn from that. Some of the worse drivers have never han an at-fault accident. My mother was one of them. She was the absolute worst, but never had an accident of any kind. But a lot of stuff happened in her wake that she was unaware of.
I've seen people change lanes with no turn signal, causing other drivers to take some kind of action to prevent an accident. No accident happened, but the lane-changer is a bad driver just the same. I've seen people wait until they are 1/4 mile from their exit, shoot over 3 lanes of traffic, no accident, but a bad driver.
Everybody thinks they are either a good driver, or at least an above average driver. Everybody. Just ask them. Yet somebody out there is causing accidents. Ever gone digging for a CD? Hassled a slower driver out of the fast lane? Kept another car from merging or changing lanes? Does your driving change in any way, shape or fashion once you spot a cop? If YES to any of these, you're a bad driver. The highways are full of drivers who are rude and inconsiderate, and even though they aren't involved in an accident, they're bad drivers, because they create additional stress on the highway, which creates additional opportunities for accidents.
Contrary to what you many believe, no matter how hard you believe it or how forcefully to adhere to it, there has not been one study, ever, that supports the claim that 4-5 hours of sleep per night on a regular basis lets someone be as alert, well rested and safe on the road, as someone who gets 8-9 hours of sleep on a regular basis. Not one study. There have even been studies done with people who make such claims about themselves, and in every single case they were shown to be fooling themselves. There are people who sleep about 4 hours a night, and then once a week they'll sleep most of one day away, recovering from chronic lack of sleep. These people, too, think they are perfectly fine each and every day on 4 hours sleep, and in every case their reaction times were sluggish as compared to those who get the proper amount of sleep. Just because you are used to getting 4-5 hours of sleep, doesn't mean that's all you need. Never having fallen asleep at the wheel doesn't mean you are not driving while fatigued, either. A lack of sleep, especially a chronic one, causes slower reaction times, vision impairment, lapses in judgment and delays in processing information, and even if these are only slight, they are still there and affect your driving. Of course, Super Truckers never experience any of these things, even though they are the very people who should be banging the door down at the sleep clinic.
As for the nitty gritty of carriers limiting cargo vans, when you say to a carrier, "I am not stupid. I DO NOT drive sleepy...yada, yada, yada," do you think they've never heard that before, and a little while later the person who said that had an accident? They have. Lots of times. There are lots of very responsible cargo van drivers out there, but all it takes is a small handful of morons to have the insurance companies go nuts, and that's why carriers will limit cargo van drivers. Carrier's do only what is in their best interest, and they could give a rat's aѕѕ about you. You're not worth the liability risk, so they'll limit you in your miles or drive time.
Panther, for example, has a 900-miles or 16-hour rule, where any load of more than 900 miles will swap, unless there is enough time to take at least a 5-hour break in the load, or they'll swap you out after 16 hours since you last moved the van. If you move the van at 10AM to go pick up a load, you're 16 hour clock runs out at 2AM the next morning, and the only thing that will reset it is a 5 hour break where the van shows zero satellite movement for those 5 hours.
Among carriers who limit their cargo vans, that's a pretty lenient set of rules. You can be on a long load, drive 16 hours, sleep 5, then drive another 16 hours. You won't likely get to do that if you're passing a snotload of Panther vans along they way, as they'll swap you out near your break time anyway, unless it shows you've got plenty of time and are running way ahead of schedule. Taking a load out west, where there are fewer vans and trucks to swap the load to, you'll likely take it the whole way, but they'll force that 5-hour break just the same.
It's their authority, their rules, and you will not be able to make them change their rules just for you. They key is knowing the rules, how they are applied, and then using it to your advantage.
Other carriers have far more restrictive rules on cargo vans. And other carriers have little or no restrictions whatsoever, yet. All it takes is one court judgment against the carrier for allowing a driver to drive too long without a break and there ya go. Jurors think an 8-hour day is an exhausting one, and think an 8 hour drive is just brutal, so they're not gonna have any sympathy for someone who has an accident after driving for 22 hours straight.
It's like, if on a load and you're on the phone with your carrier (Panther for sure, don't know about the others), and you make a statement like, "I'll be glad when I deliver this, so I can go to bed," or especially if you say the magic words, "I'm tired," they're gonna swap you out before you can blink. They're gonna pull you off the road and the next available swappable spot, and park yer butt until they can find someone to swap the load to. The reason is, if they allow you to continue driving after making a statement like that, and you have an accident, the DOT will pull the phone records and all other records pertaining to the load (like the QC messages), as they do in all motor carrier accidents, and when they do, the carrier is beyond screwed when it's determined they allowed you to continue driving while fatigued. It's open and shut.
I do wish you good luck in finding a carrier that will allow you to run as you wish.