Cash for Clunkers.. hurts the little guy..

[Dreamer]

OK, normally don't post too much in here, but got something buggin me


For the past 10 years, my brother has run a small used car dealership. During that time, I've helped out now and then as sales, title clerk, notary, whatever...


Our 'niche' has always been the cheaper cars. Our customers usually can't qualify for a new car, or don't want the payments. As such, over the past few years, we have bought hundreds and hundreds of trade-ins from Columbus new car dealers.


We bought them cheap, put a few bucks in em, and resold them.. cash deals, $1000 to $2500 cars... no buy here pay here, just cheap decent used cars, nothing fancy. We sold hundreds of work trucks, vans, family cars, mini-vans etc.

There are a few small car lots around here who do the same thing.. some do 'buy here pay here'.. some like us, just cash deals.

Now, the 'source' has dried up. The new car dealers are taking these good, dependable, used cars, and must destroy them, because 'government' says it's better for the economy.

They just had them on the news, showing some pretty slick cars, in my opinion, better than what I drive.. LOL... and the dealers even say, it's a shame to destroy them, but in order to qualify for the gov money, they have to disable them.. the engines are even pulled and destroyed.

Why not sell them to a salvage yard at least? Yes, us small town guys still buy used parts to fix stuff. Already, it's hard to find parts for pre-96 cars, because the salvage yards scrapped all old stuff when the scrap metal prices went up.

My son drives a 94 Ford that is a nice car... but can't even find a tail-light!

Granted, I know all the buying of new cars is a real shot in the arm for the dealerships.. but why destroy the cars? There are LOTS of working guys who need cheap cars. At least in my area, and they can't afford a new car.


Why not give the incentive without destroying the cars?


Dale


Someone sent me this, and how true...


Some years back the IRS took over the Mustang Ranch in Nevada for failure to pay its tax bill. As required by law they ran the place in an attempt to make enough to pay off the tax bill, and of course they failed.

Now, the question is, if these guys couldn’t make money selling hookers and whiskey, what on earth makes you think they can run any other business successfully????

 

[dieseldiva]

Excellent points, Dale, one and all.

You're right, there's several different ways this thing could have been set up to help even more people.

There's a lot of people out there that don't even have a car. Why not set some kind of standard that would allow some of these cars to be kept and give them away.

If you must destroy the car, why not part them out, as you pointed out, parts are scarce for a lot of older vehicles and someone, somewhere, can make some money from these parts, either at the junk yards, swap meets, or the internet.

The way it stands right now, there are many that need new cars and cannot participate in this program because they don't have good credit. Where's their break?

Dealers such as your brother and those that run the "buy here, pay here".....SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS one and all...get screwed. Not only is there no way for them to participate in the program, the government is taking away a lot of their future business by eliminating their product!

I haven't seen anything come out of this administration yet that is going to benefit any one of us drivers/owner-operators/ or fleet owners here on this site. We just get to keep paying the tab for everyone else and this particular program makes us pay the tab for a lot of people that are far better off than we are.

 

[60MPH]

you know who is really behind this??? EPA!! thats right they are getting rid of as many of the old cars "that don't meet clean air standards of today" as they can. That is why they are not salvaging the parts, they want everyone driving a newer "cleaner" vehicle. makes me sick!! this forces hard working lower income people into the corner. They usually can't afford newer cars so they buy cars from people like dreamers brother. but with less older cars on the market they are stuck with what they are currently driving. then something breaks on the car. so they call junkyard after junk yard and they can't find the part so they end up doing 1 of 2 things. #1 keep driving the car with the broken part or #2 try to get another car but if they ain't got no money then they are stuck. this is not safe and it makes no sense F the EPA!!

 

[Dreamer]

Diva,

You brought up a good point there, never thought of that.. how bout all the people on welfare (which has it's place, don't get me wrong).. people who could get SOME kind of job, even the minimum wage jobs.. but have no car?

Why not give the cars to them, with understanding they look for work.

Or, the guys who lost their good jobs, got cars re-po'd, etc..

Anything but waste them.


Dale

 

[greg334]

The absolute truth is that this has zero to do with saving the earth/greencars and so on.

This is only about sales and proving what was done to screw the American people to help the "american Auto Companies" was done it he best interest of the American people.

If this was a treu green bill, then it would include cars of all ages, cars and trucks that don't run, it would exclude fleet vehicles and leased vehicles and it would exclude purchasing of anything that gets less than 25 mpg.

I understand what Dale is getting at but it doesn't matter to Washington, how many independent dealers are union.

 

[layoutshooter]

Welfare does NOT help MOST people. All it does it strip people of their dignity and take away their pride. The same thing happens in the amimal world. Feed wild animals and they soon resort to "begging". It is almost like they "forget" how to feed and take care of themselfs. I have seen what I call "welfare" fish at the marina I used to work at. People used to feed the bluegills and after a bit "schools" of them used to "follow" people up and down the bulkheads looking for handouts. I used to "take advantage" of that. I would "intice" that school in close and take my pic. They tasted good!! The same thing happens to people when they become
wards of the State. They are very easily taken atvantage of and often are. Below is a picture of a couple of mallards that have fallen into that SAME trap. NO PRIDE!! It is SAD to see.

 

[Pilgrim]

Why not give the incentive without destroying the cars?

Dale

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's my understanding these "clunkers" can be parted out. Their engines are rendered unusable and then they can be picked up by a salvage company to have the parts removed. This info comes from a dealership in TN that I'm very familiar with. Might be worth a call to some of the dealers in the Columbus area with whom you have an established relationship. The dealership I mentioned was at first worried they would have to absorb the cost of having the clunkers trucked to the crusher - instead, this option allows the salvage operators to come to them.

There is also a paragraph on CARS.gov that references scrap value that is supposed to be disclosed to the owner:

The program requires the scrapping of your eligible trade-in vehicle, and that the dealer disclose to you an estimate of the scrap value of your trade-in. The scrap value, however minimal, will be in addition to the rebate, and not in place of the rebate.

This would seem to indicate the allowance of a salvaging process for the old cars.

 

[Poorboy]

If The Federal Government was In Charge of the Mojave Desert, There would be a Sand Shortage inside of a year!!

 

[Humble2drive]

Welfare does NOT help MOST people. All it does it strip people of their dignity and take away their pride. The same thing happens in the amimal world. Feed wild animals and they soon resort to "begging". It is almost like they "forget" how to feed and take care of themselfs. I have seen what I call "welfare" fish at the marina I used to work at. People used to feed the bluegills and after a bit "schools" of them used to "follow" people up and down the bulkheads looking for handouts. I used to "take advantage" of that. I would "intice" that school in close and take my pic. They tasted good!! The same thing happens to people when they become
wards of the State. They are very easily taken atvantage of and often are. Below is a picture of a couple of mallards that have fallen into that SAME trap. NO PRIDE!! It is SAD to see.

Thank you LOS for exposing these worthless mallards. They should be ashamed of themselves.
I just want to point out that most ducks I have met work hard for their food and would never resort to accepting handouts like those two worthless quacks in the picture.

 

[layoutshooter]

AS do MOST of the ducks I have seen, there are MANY though that are like those in the pick. We used to call them "Popcorn" ducks. They were SO fat and lazy that they could BARELY fly!! They were EASY pickings on the first day of duck season. Much like the Sheeple of today, ripe to be sheared.

 

[dieseldiva]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's my understanding these "clunkers" can be parted out. Their engines are rendered unusable and then they can be picked up by a salvage company to have the parts removed. This info comes from a dealership in TN that I'm very familiar with. Might be worth a call to some of the dealers in the Columbus area with whom you have an established relationship. The dealership I mentioned was at first worried they would have to absorb the cost of having the clunkers trucked to the crusher - instead, this option allows the salvage operators to come to them.

There is also a paragraph on CARS.gov that references scrap value that is supposed to be disclosed to the owner:

The program requires the scrapping of your eligible trade-in vehicle, and that the dealer disclose to you an estimate of the scrap value of your trade-in. The scrap value, however minimal, will be in addition to the rebate, and not in place of the rebate.

This would seem to indicate the allowance of a salvaging process for the old cars.

With all due respect, Pilgrim, I want to see the quote where it says that these vehicles can be parted out.

If the engines are rendered unusable, which is what I'm hearing reported, how then, would you be able to salvage the parts?

What I'm understanding from the paragraph you quote from cars.gov is that the "scrap value" of the vehicle would be the amount that would normally be paid to any person selling scrap metal to the scrap yard, does the salvaging process include "parting out" the vehicles before they are crushed and weighed? I'm asking that as a sincere question as I am clueless about the process.

 

[Pilgrim]

Here are a couple of articles explaining the program:

Re: Regarding cash for clunkers - car parts WILL be salvaged

Belmont Club Cash for clunkers

Even with a car's engine frozen, there are plenty of parts that can be harvested and re-used.

 

[greg334]

You really got to seriously think about this one.

This program eliminates less than 250,000 cars and spurs sales of the replacement cars.

Now if you really think about it, how do some of these cars that are going away actually help the environment when the cars of the past cost already have the energy spent building them while the new cars use more energy to produce them and ship them because there are so many plants closing. The MPG that a car needs to get to actually be helpful is around 30 MPG, not the 22 that a lot of these replacement cars/trucks are getting.

Also when you come down to the numbers to make a real impact, you would have to get people in these 'green' cars to replace more than 10% of the amount of cars on the road which is something like 2,500,000 cars or when you use the cash for clinkers formula, you need about 10 billion dollars to sustain the program. Is it really worth the money to subsidize companies, wasn't the last election about change and not corporate welfare?

 

[layoutshooter]

No, the last election was only about power and control of the people. Everything else was a smokescreen. It does amaze me just how many were duped.

 

[Turtle]

Someone sent me this, and how true...


Some years back the IRS took over the Mustang Ranch in Nevada for failure to pay its tax bill. As required by law they ran the place in an attempt to make enough to pay off the tax bill, and of course they failed.

Now, the question is, if these guys couldn’t make money selling hookers and whiskey, what on earth makes you think they can run any other business successfully????

One of many "Internet Truths."
Sorry, but this is just one of those things I can't let go by....

The Mustang Ranch was forfeited to the US government in 1999 after losing a tax fraud case that also involved racketeering and conspiracy. The Ranch was closed the same day, and has never reopened. The interior furnishing were auctioned off in 2002, and in 2003 the Bureau of Land Management auctioned off the buildings on eBay. The buildings were moved to another location 5 miles away at the Wild Horse Adult Resort and Spa, and after a lengthy court battle the new owner won the rights to the Mustang Ranch name, and has since began doing business in the new location under that name, where both the Wild Horse and Mustang ranch sit side-by-side.

Instead of someone making up the story that the government was required, by law (there is and was no law), to run the business long enough to pay off the tax bill, what people should be talking about is how the government was so butt-stoopid as to close down a highly profitable house the same day they took possession of it, and then sold off the assets in pieces (I love a good pun) in order to recoup but a fraction of the unpaid taxes.


As for the Clunkers, it's working out to be about 12-15 cars per dealer. That's all the money that was available in the initial $1 billion. An extra billion or two will increase that, but it's not like the used car market is going to dry up and blow away.

 

[dieseldiva]

Another view....

Thursday, July 30, 2009

Crush for Clunkers [Henry Payne]
Detroit, Mich. — How much do our green representatives in Washington hate SUVs? They’re having them dismantled and destroyed.

As customers flocked to auto dealers this week to see if they qualified for $3,500-$4,500 in taxpayer-subsidized “Cash for Clunkers” rebates, a little noticed provision of the program requires that the trade-in vehicles be “scrapped, crushed or shredded.” The 136-page rulebook [PDF] by which NHTSA administers the Clunkers program is a revealing window into the planet-first ideologues that are now running our country.

First conceived by liberal Princeton Prof. Alan Binder, Cash for Clunkers was intended to provide a boost to moribund U.S. car sales. Binder modeled his idea on German scrappage laws, which are open to all vehicles, and he estimated that between 2 and 5 million cars would be traded in — a real shot in the arm to an industry that has seen sales cut in half from 17 million vehicles in 2006.

But being obsessed with converting Americans to their green religion, Democratic Washington perverted the program’s intention by limiting eligible trade-ins to “gas-guzzlers” getting 18 mpg or less — and with the caveat that new vehicles get at least 18 mpg and be at least 4 mpg greener in order to qualify for the rebate. Congress’s prudish green plan is limited to a measly 250,000 trade-ins, as a host of new cars sitting on dealer lots don’t qualify for the program. Want to trade in your old 2000 Ford Explorer SUV for a new one? No chance. The 16 mpg Explorer is not morally approved by Washington.

There are nearly 350 models of car, truck, and minivan available in the U.S. market, but only a righteous remnant gets Congress's green imprimatur. Chrysler, for example — which has received billions in federal bailout dollars — qualifies only nine of its 20 new models for Washington’s rebate. Some stimulus.

Worse, Democratic demands that the guzzlers be permanently shredded means that already hurting used-car and -parts businesses will suffer. By insisting that the cars not only be crushed — but also that their engines be disabled — Congress’s decree will penalize the industry at time when a dozen U.S. parts suppliers have filed for bankruptcy this year.

“Why throw away good parts when the supply chain is in jeopardy?” the Automotive Recyclers Association’s Michael Wilson asked the AP. Good question.

So obsessive is Washington that NHTSA is actually advising car dealers to replace a trade-in’s motor oil with a sodium silicate solution — then run the engine to ruin it so scrap dealers can’t resell any of its parts.

The victims will be lower-income Americans who typically buy only used parts and vehicles. “Now you’re removing cars people could afford, and they’re not available anymore,” says Norm Wright, a Denver recycler. “There will be fewer cars to pull from, so the price of parts will go up.”

SUVs, apparently, aren’t the only things being sacrificed at the green altar.
07/30 06:15 PM

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From page 51 of the PDF......

The disposal facility must also
certify that it will not sell, lease, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the vehicle for use as
an automobile in the United States or any other country, that the vehicle will be crushed
or shredded onsite within six months after the date of its transfer from the dealer, and that
the vehicle will not be transferred to another disposal facility prior to being crushed or
shredded. Finally, it must certify that it will update NMVTIS, within 7 days after
receiving title to the trade-in vehicle and again within 7 days after crushing or shredding
the vehicle. During the six-month period prior to the required crushing or shredding of
the trade-in vehicle, the disposal facility may sell any parts of the vehicle other than the
engine block19 or drive train (unless the drive train is dismantled and sold in parts).

 

[dieseldiva]

This gentleman suggests a possible scam by the car dealers using this cash for clunkers to their advantage. Makes sense to me....how many vehicles on their lots that are worth less than the $4500??

Watch the video......what say you....is this possibly why the money went so fast??

VIDEO

 

[Turtle]

As of July 31, 40,000 Clunkers had been processed for new car trade-ins, with an additional 200,000 transactions backlogged and yet to be completed. That's 240,000 Clunkers, times an average of $4000 per car, which comes to $960,000,000, which is 10,000 cars short of $1 Billion. Quite likely those 10,000 cars were sold over the weekend, easily bringing the total to a billion dollars. That's why the money went so fast.

 

[dieseldiva]

As of July 31, 40,000 Clunkers had been processed for new car trade-ins, with an additional 200,000 transactions backlogged and yet to be completed. That's 240,000 Clunkers, times an average of $4000 per car, which comes to $960,000,000, which is 10,000 cars short of $1 Billion. Quite likely those 10,000 cars were sold over the weekend, easily bringing the total to a billion dollars. That's why the money went so fast.

So you're saying that they can prove that for each clunker that is turned into the program, they have the exact number of cars sold? I'm just sayin'.

Or that there's paperwork showing car for car....

 

[Turtle]

Yeah, that's how the program works, paperwork showing car for car. When I was home last week I got to see up close and personal how it all works. But that's not where the scams are gonna happen, on the dealer lots. The scams are gonna happen when large numbers of Clunkers don't end up getting destroyed, and end up in Mexico or someplace instead. Car-for-car paperwork isn't one that they can scam, but cars being diverted from the crusher is.