I just heard that FECC sent out a message telling their vans to cross scales in Michigan. Anyone else been told to do so?
Cargo vans scaling in Michigan
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late for dinner
Expert Expediter
I have done my best to allert drivers of this change for about 2 months now. Last November the Michigan Legislature changed the law to require every motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property to be required to cross the scales. This law took effect on January I of this year. I paid a fine o0f $250.00 in Monroe Mi on April 12. The next day I was sitting at the Detroiter and had a Panther II driver tell me I was nothing but a troublemaker and that I didn't know what the h--- I was talking about. I can only hope that he is the next one to be required to pay this fine.
Broompilot
Veteran Expediter
Such Class he had. I may dissagree with someone, but until they become threatening, I cannot imiagne using that type of language towards another person.
I was wondering how that turned out Late. I think on a change like that there should be a grace period like there was with the log books. Written warnings for 6 months or something like that. A mass e-mail or something to let the carriers know would have been in order.
dhalltoyo
Veteran Expediter
Maybe you could scan and post a copy of the actual charges to dispel any suspicions of wrong doing on your part.
I heard of a cargo van driver giving the KY scalehouse the one finger salute not thinking they may have been looking out with binoculars. Ya think they didn't stop him futher down the road for a very intense vehicle inspection? Think again!
I am not saying that this is the case here, but I have heard a few rumors about an exchange of words at the rest stop on the day in question.
So it may be your best defense to allow folks to see exactly what the documented charges were.
As I said earlier on, our safety director spoke with the powers that be and we are not scaling in Michigan. Since your post none of our vans have been ticketed or stopped. It is very difficult for me to believe that Michigan would enforce any traffic laws as they have the most criminal acting drivers on the road. Maybe they all just drive like thugs because they are mad. If I had to drive on such terrible pavement everyday it would make me mad too!
I heard of a cargo van driver giving the KY scalehouse the one finger salute not thinking they may have been looking out with binoculars. Ya think they didn't stop him futher down the road for a very intense vehicle inspection? Think again!
I am not saying that this is the case here, but I have heard a few rumors about an exchange of words at the rest stop on the day in question.
So it may be your best defense to allow folks to see exactly what the documented charges were.
As I said earlier on, our safety director spoke with the powers that be and we are not scaling in Michigan. Since your post none of our vans have been ticketed or stopped. It is very difficult for me to believe that Michigan would enforce any traffic laws as they have the most criminal acting drivers on the road. Maybe they all just drive like thugs because they are mad. If I had to drive on such terrible pavement everyday it would make me mad too!
late for dinner
Expert Expediter
Posting a copy of the ticket would not change anyones belief and would put way too much personal info on this site. Do you really think FECC would put out info to all of their van drivers that they must stop at the scales if it was not true. All anyone has to do is look up Michigan's law See Section 257.724(5) As far as the rumors that you heard I can only say, nothing was said by either the officer or myself that was anything but professional or respectfull.
jrcarroll
Expert Expediter
I for one, will be stopping at ALL scale houses and checking! It is not worth the loss of income, just to drive by. As the writting on the wall is telling us soon vans will have to log and scale at all times.
As for the drivers who dislike and provoke the scale personel, well they reep what they sew. Why get mad at a person who is just doing their job? To me they are just like the shipper or reciever or any other person. Treat them just as you want to be treated.
As for the drivers who dislike and provoke the scale personel, well they reep what they sew. Why get mad at a person who is just doing their job? To me they are just like the shipper or reciever or any other person. Treat them just as you want to be treated.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
You know guys (and gals) if you own a van and you are coming into Michigan with the scales open, you HAVE TO SCALE – PERIOD. This is now law and it went into effect on 1-1-2006, confirmed by my representative, the MSP, the SOS, the Michigan Center for Truck Safety and the Michigan Truck Association.
I have a copy of the enforcement flyer, it is clear as day, anything over 5500 lbs is now considered a truck, must follow scale rules and the discretion is up to any one of many people, including any MSP trooper, sheriff, city cop or parking enforcement – not just MSP carrier enforcement anymore to pull you over and ticket you. The fines are spelled out $250 to $500 but last week I heard that these may be increased to $500 to $1000 per incident with points.
Now I know of a few officers that if they got that single finger salute from you, they would be tearing your van apart looking for all kinds of stuff, inspecting it and citing you for anything they can find. And as one put it - it would even be better if you were loaded because the detention time can be in hours waiting for that nice dog to sniff your truck - and they would not allow a transfer of anything on your van until they are done.
To make you all clear on this – this is not an assault on trucking but rather a search for more revenue. God only knows how much money the state would make if they would just enforce the speed limit with buses or enforce the equipment laws in the state; the broken side mirrors could generate millions in ticket revenue alone if they enforce the law. Instead they figured this is a good money maker with a captive audience. Also just to tell you all they don’t have to say a thing when somehtng is changed in Lansing, this is normal for them. I mean the attitude is ignorance of the law is no excuse and being professionals we should have a crystal ball to tell us when things change.
Hey dhalltoyo
First it don’t matter what your safety department says, who they talk to or what they think, I called five different people and got five different answers and yes a couple were pretty high up in Lansing. Until I talked to a friend who is a trooper I was so frustrated and confused, she set the story straight. The state of Michigan is so inconsistent with information it is sometimes too frustrating to deal with them BESIDES, if you blow pass the scale and get a ticket, is your safety department going to pay for the ticket, time off to fight it or court cost, probably not – so I wouldn’t take a chance.
Second, FedEx is rather a large company and I would say this is a precautionary move for them, telling us van drivers what they know. It is part of their need not to have things come back to them and bite them in the a**. I got my message yeaterday(truck wasn't on for a couple days) and feel it is good they are telling everyone.
I have a copy of the enforcement flyer, it is clear as day, anything over 5500 lbs is now considered a truck, must follow scale rules and the discretion is up to any one of many people, including any MSP trooper, sheriff, city cop or parking enforcement – not just MSP carrier enforcement anymore to pull you over and ticket you. The fines are spelled out $250 to $500 but last week I heard that these may be increased to $500 to $1000 per incident with points.
Now I know of a few officers that if they got that single finger salute from you, they would be tearing your van apart looking for all kinds of stuff, inspecting it and citing you for anything they can find. And as one put it - it would even be better if you were loaded because the detention time can be in hours waiting for that nice dog to sniff your truck - and they would not allow a transfer of anything on your van until they are done.
To make you all clear on this – this is not an assault on trucking but rather a search for more revenue. God only knows how much money the state would make if they would just enforce the speed limit with buses or enforce the equipment laws in the state; the broken side mirrors could generate millions in ticket revenue alone if they enforce the law. Instead they figured this is a good money maker with a captive audience. Also just to tell you all they don’t have to say a thing when somehtng is changed in Lansing, this is normal for them. I mean the attitude is ignorance of the law is no excuse and being professionals we should have a crystal ball to tell us when things change.
Hey dhalltoyo
First it don’t matter what your safety department says, who they talk to or what they think, I called five different people and got five different answers and yes a couple were pretty high up in Lansing. Until I talked to a friend who is a trooper I was so frustrated and confused, she set the story straight. The state of Michigan is so inconsistent with information it is sometimes too frustrating to deal with them BESIDES, if you blow pass the scale and get a ticket, is your safety department going to pay for the ticket, time off to fight it or court cost, probably not – so I wouldn’t take a chance.
Second, FedEx is rather a large company and I would say this is a precautionary move for them, telling us van drivers what they know. It is part of their need not to have things come back to them and bite them in the a**. I got my message yeaterday(truck wasn't on for a couple days) and feel it is good they are telling everyone.
Hi folks, I'm from Canada and I have a question regarding this topic, I don't travel to MI much but when I do I need to make sure I follow the rules, so my questions is if the van is considered a truck, do I have to have pre/post trip inspection filled out (I check my van every morning but I don't currently keep track with an inspection book, probably should but...)and or logbook (comply with HOS rules)?
Oh Oh wait, now do I have to drive double nickel (55MPH) too?
Oh Oh wait, now do I have to drive double nickel (55MPH) too?
greg334
Veteran Expediter
>Hi folks, I'm from Canada and I have a question regarding
>this topic, I don't travel to MI much but when I do I need
>to make sure I follow the rules, so my questions is if the
>van is considered a truck, do I have to have pre/post trip
>inspection filled out (I check my van every morning but I
>don't currently keep track with an inspection book, probably
>should but...)and or logbook (comply with HOS rules)?
>
>Oh Oh wait, now do I have to drive double nickel (55MPH)
>too?
Simply no log, no pretrip but have to scale at an open scale.
As for speed, that is something I heard is weight related, anything over 10,001 lbs (4,536 KG) has to drive at truck speed (55MPH)
OH by the by, here is a link to the enforcment quarterly(http://www.michigan.gov/documents/October_2005_142699_7.pdf), look on page 3 but here is what it says -
Act 300, amended by Act 179
· Creates Section 257.321g, which moves the
HM endorsement violations from Act 181 to Act
300.
· Deletes Section 257.714a, mudflaps, which is
moved to Act 181.
· Deletes Section 257.714b, fuel systems, which
conflicted with the FMCSR.
· Amended Section 257.723, identification
requirements:
o Now applies to “commercial vehiclesâ€
(as defined in 257.7) single or
combination, GVWR/actual gross, over
5,000 lbs., and all wreckers.
o Vehicles in compliance with Section
390.21 of the FMCSR shall be deemed
in compliance with 257.723.
o The farm/manufacturer plate exemption
only applies to vehicles under 10,000
lbs.
· Section 257.724(5) – language identifying what
vehicles are required to cross the scales is
clarified:
o Commercial vehicles (as defined in
257.7) with other vehicles or trailers in
combination;
o A truck or truck tractor, single or in
combination;
o Any special mobile equipment.
· Section 257.724(7) – dumping load to avoid a
weigh is now a violation of the “refuse to weighâ€
provision.
The thing is that that the first bold statement is interpreted as any commercial vehicle can be considered a truck hence the second bold statement is where they get all this from. I undestand that the statement before the second bold statement is also interpreted to include vans and sprinter. This is how it was explained to me. This is not the enforcement bullitin I have, that one goes into detail of different situations.
>this topic, I don't travel to MI much but when I do I need
>to make sure I follow the rules, so my questions is if the
>van is considered a truck, do I have to have pre/post trip
>inspection filled out (I check my van every morning but I
>don't currently keep track with an inspection book, probably
>should but...)and or logbook (comply with HOS rules)?
>
>Oh Oh wait, now do I have to drive double nickel (55MPH)
>too?
Simply no log, no pretrip but have to scale at an open scale.
As for speed, that is something I heard is weight related, anything over 10,001 lbs (4,536 KG) has to drive at truck speed (55MPH)
OH by the by, here is a link to the enforcment quarterly(http://www.michigan.gov/documents/October_2005_142699_7.pdf), look on page 3 but here is what it says -
Act 300, amended by Act 179
· Creates Section 257.321g, which moves the
HM endorsement violations from Act 181 to Act
300.
· Deletes Section 257.714a, mudflaps, which is
moved to Act 181.
· Deletes Section 257.714b, fuel systems, which
conflicted with the FMCSR.
· Amended Section 257.723, identification
requirements:
o Now applies to “commercial vehiclesâ€
(as defined in 257.7) single or
combination, GVWR/actual gross, over
5,000 lbs., and all wreckers.
o Vehicles in compliance with Section
390.21 of the FMCSR shall be deemed
in compliance with 257.723.
o The farm/manufacturer plate exemption
only applies to vehicles under 10,000
lbs.
· Section 257.724(5) – language identifying what
vehicles are required to cross the scales is
clarified:
o Commercial vehicles (as defined in
257.7) with other vehicles or trailers in
combination;
o A truck or truck tractor, single or in
combination;
o Any special mobile equipment.
· Section 257.724(7) – dumping load to avoid a
weigh is now a violation of the “refuse to weighâ€
provision.
The thing is that that the first bold statement is interpreted as any commercial vehicle can be considered a truck hence the second bold statement is where they get all this from. I undestand that the statement before the second bold statement is also interpreted to include vans and sprinter. This is how it was explained to me. This is not the enforcement bullitin I have, that one goes into detail of different situations.
Hi Everyone: As I stated in the earlier post on this Cargo Vans are now considered to be trucks. I spole to a number of people and finally a Lt.Archambault of the Michigan State Police Motor Carrier division told me we needed to scale. I myself when I am in one of our sprinters or vans will cross the Michigan scales. I log all of the time because I drive both trucks and vans. Also if some of you guys are running in unmarked vans (no name or D.O.T numbers ect beware. You can be fined up to five thousand dollars. I had an experience first hand with a Motor Carrier officer in Mt Pleasant Mi who pulled me over because I was in a van with no numbers. He explained it very well. My boss got away easy. 195.00. He could have been fined up to 5000.00 dollars. I don't think he would have been to happy.
Going back to Work Sunday. Going to Arkansas. Be safe out there.
Jim
Going back to Work Sunday. Going to Arkansas. Be safe out there.
Jim
Thank you very much for the info, that kind of clears things up a bit but I guess Monday morning I'll have to call my signs guy and have him make me some decals with the required info before I go into MI again.
dawggone, could you post up what info the officer said needs to be displayed on the truck other than a company name and dot number?
Thanks.
dawggone, could you post up what info the officer said needs to be displayed on the truck other than a company name and dot number?
Thanks.
Eaglex: We have the name,D.O.T. ICC and MPSC sticker. Not sure if you would require a MPSC or not if your not based out of the Michigan. I know it is a Michigan requirement for any vehicle going more than fifteen miles from their home base.
Will be leaving for Eldorado Ar shortly. Been a week since I have worked. I am itching to get back. Be safe out there and most of all have some fun.
Jim
Will be leaving for Eldorado Ar shortly. Been a week since I have worked. I am itching to get back. Be safe out there and most of all have some fun.
Jim
greg334
Veteran Expediter
>Eaglex: We have the name,D.O.T. ICC and MPSC sticker. Not
>sure if you would require a MPSC or not if your not based
>out of the Michigan. I know it is a Michigan requirement for
>any vehicle going more than fifteen miles from their home
>base.
"The Motor Carrier Act, 254 PA 1933, as amended, requires any person engaged in the transportation, by motor vehicle, of property for hire upon the public highways of this state, either directly or through any device or arrangement, to first obtain a certificate from the Public Service Commission."
Take it as you want, but my van has to have one.
>sure if you would require a MPSC or not if your not based
>out of the Michigan. I know it is a Michigan requirement for
>any vehicle going more than fifteen miles from their home
>base.
"The Motor Carrier Act, 254 PA 1933, as amended, requires any person engaged in the transportation, by motor vehicle, of property for hire upon the public highways of this state, either directly or through any device or arrangement, to first obtain a certificate from the Public Service Commission."
Take it as you want, but my van has to have one.
This is one hot topic causing concern for all van drivers in the expedited industry. I've had a few PTL drivers question me because of the posts here on EO. I had to research myself.
There are some clarifications needed. There are actually two separate areas of concern here - the first being the marking of commercial vehicles, secondly, what vehicles are required to cross scales.
Specifically, MVC 257.723 states "All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 lbs., and all towing or platform bed wreckers, must have the name, city and state or registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and the lessee of the vehicle if it is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle, with letters not less than three (3) inches in height and not lower than the bottom edge of the door."
"Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of the subsection may be met through removable devices."
I would interpret this regulation to mean that if you operate a cargo van for any carrier that you should have the carriers signs displayed (showing name of carrier, city and state, and US DOT number), but also something to the effect of "Owned by XXXXXXX, City and State". You may use magnetic backing for the application of the signage, provided it is displayed when operating under the carrier's authority.
As far as scales -
MVC 257.7 defines a commercial vehicle as ""Commercial vehicle" includes all motor vehicles used for the transportation of passengers for hire, or constructed or used for transportation of goods, wares or merchandise, and/or all motor vehicles designed and used for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry any load thereon either independently or any part of the weight of a vehicle or load so drawn."
FMCSR 390.5 defines "Commercial Motor Vehicle" as "Any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate or intrastate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:
* Has a WR, GCVW, GVW or GCW of 10,001 lbs or more
* Is designed to transport more than 8 passengers (including driver) for compensation
* Is designed to transport more than 15 passengers (including driver), is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
* Is used in transporting placardable amounts of hazardous materials"
Now, the interpretation problem lies in the fact that MVC 257.724(5) states that "A driver or owner of a comercial vehicle with other vehicles or trailers in combination, a truck or truck tractor, a truck or truck tractor with other vehicles in combination, or any special mobile equipment, who fails to stop at or by-passes any scales or weighing station is guilty of a misdemeanor." MVC 257.724 states that ANY COMMERCIAL VEHICLE must cross scales. FMCSR 390.5 defines CMV differently. The correct interpretation lies in the difference in Commercial Vehicle and Commercial Motor Vehicle. A call to the Michigan Center for Truck Safety (517)321-1955 clarified the rule - YES, SINCE JANUARY 1, 2006 - ALL VANS OPERATING FOR CARRIERS SHOULD BE CROSSING SCALES IN MICHIGAN.
SORRY SO LENGTHY - BUT CLARIFICATION IN THIS POST WAS IMPERATIVE.
I hope this solves the signs and weigh station issues for all van operators.
Thanks,
HotFr8Recruiter
There are some clarifications needed. There are actually two separate areas of concern here - the first being the marking of commercial vehicles, secondly, what vehicles are required to cross scales.
Specifically, MVC 257.723 states "All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 lbs., and all towing or platform bed wreckers, must have the name, city and state or registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and the lessee of the vehicle if it is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle, with letters not less than three (3) inches in height and not lower than the bottom edge of the door."
"Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of the subsection may be met through removable devices."
I would interpret this regulation to mean that if you operate a cargo van for any carrier that you should have the carriers signs displayed (showing name of carrier, city and state, and US DOT number), but also something to the effect of "Owned by XXXXXXX, City and State". You may use magnetic backing for the application of the signage, provided it is displayed when operating under the carrier's authority.
As far as scales -
MVC 257.7 defines a commercial vehicle as ""Commercial vehicle" includes all motor vehicles used for the transportation of passengers for hire, or constructed or used for transportation of goods, wares or merchandise, and/or all motor vehicles designed and used for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry any load thereon either independently or any part of the weight of a vehicle or load so drawn."
FMCSR 390.5 defines "Commercial Motor Vehicle" as "Any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate or intrastate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:
* Has a WR, GCVW, GVW or GCW of 10,001 lbs or more
* Is designed to transport more than 8 passengers (including driver) for compensation
* Is designed to transport more than 15 passengers (including driver), is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
* Is used in transporting placardable amounts of hazardous materials"
Now, the interpretation problem lies in the fact that MVC 257.724(5) states that "A driver or owner of a comercial vehicle with other vehicles or trailers in combination, a truck or truck tractor, a truck or truck tractor with other vehicles in combination, or any special mobile equipment, who fails to stop at or by-passes any scales or weighing station is guilty of a misdemeanor." MVC 257.724 states that ANY COMMERCIAL VEHICLE must cross scales. FMCSR 390.5 defines CMV differently. The correct interpretation lies in the difference in Commercial Vehicle and Commercial Motor Vehicle. A call to the Michigan Center for Truck Safety (517)321-1955 clarified the rule - YES, SINCE JANUARY 1, 2006 - ALL VANS OPERATING FOR CARRIERS SHOULD BE CROSSING SCALES IN MICHIGAN.
SORRY SO LENGTHY - BUT CLARIFICATION IN THIS POST WAS IMPERATIVE.
I hope this solves the signs and weigh station issues for all van operators.
Thanks,
HotFr8Recruiter
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Thanks for the info.
Well I have to say that even though many will disagree with me, the MPSC sticker is something that is also open to interpretation about enforcement and the sticker are supposed to be on every commercial vehicle delivering anything in the state except USPS vehicles and pay the accompanying tax – which is the purpose of the sticker in the first place. This includes every vehicle that comes into the state but outside of three MSP troopers and someone at Michigan Public Service Commission, no one seems to know about the sticker or care about it.
Well I have to say that even though many will disagree with me, the MPSC sticker is something that is also open to interpretation about enforcement and the sticker are supposed to be on every commercial vehicle delivering anything in the state except USPS vehicles and pay the accompanying tax – which is the purpose of the sticker in the first place. This includes every vehicle that comes into the state but outside of three MSP troopers and someone at Michigan Public Service Commission, no one seems to know about the sticker or care about it.