No one will ever accuse you of not being able to go off on a tangent.
Your right on that one because i feel as strongly about my beliefs as you do on yours.
My beliefs as stated in this thread are mostly statements of fact, or are my own reasoned conclusions based on history and human nature. I stand by them until someone can put forth reasoned conclusion that refute them. Your beliefs, on the other hand, while making some good points along the way, fall mostly short in that they are emotionally based. You want something, and you want it really, really badly, therefore you should have it. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I don't care how badly you want it.
"And tolerence is based on what?"
Tolerance based on the same exact thing that gays and lesbians are demanding - empathy for others who are not like you.
"Allowing people to be who they are and to love who they want?"
Yes, of course.
"marry who they want without regard to race,sex, or skin color."
Nope. Race, national origin, skin color, creed, sure, but not without regard to sex. That would be a redefining of what it means to marry. Currently, you have the same rights to marry as I do. In fact, you've been married. You can get married again, if you want to. What you don't have the right to do is change the defintion of marriage for all of society merely to suit your particular wants and desires at this particular time in human history. You need to be tolerant of the feelings and traditions of thousands of years of human history. But you won't, because they have something you don't, and you want it, and you wanting it is all that matters.
You're not going to get respect on this issue unless you give respect to those who's beliefs you so easily dismiss in favor of your own.
"Just as my father growing up and being called a half breed.The world changes every year ,we change something."
Sometimes for the good, sometimes not so much.
"Yes we have gay pride every year, yes we have St Patricks day, Martin Luther King day, Presidents day, For those that celrebrate it (Thanks giving) Christmas, Halloween, Easter, Labor day, 4th of July , Memorial..........everyone has a cause to celerbrate."
Funny you should word it that way,
cause. Gay Pride was invented solely to promote a special interest cause. The other holidays are there to commemorate an event or an individual or individuals. The other holidays, too, incidentally, are actual holidays. Gay Pride is not a holiday. It might be one day, but I wouldn't hold my breath. It was invented as an annual
angry and defiant response to the Stonewall Inn raid in The Village in NYC, and far too many gays and lesbians still hang on to that anger and defiance.
But, it wasn't even called Gay Pride back then, it was called many things, such Gay Liberation Day and Gay Freedom Day, almost all of them with somewhat radical, angry and defiant names and themes. Fortunately, someone in the GLBT community with a little political common sense realized that something more politically benign like
Gay Pride was less menacing to the non-gay population.
While the Gay Pride Parades still set a stage for political activism for such issues as same-sex marriage, the biggest problem with most of them is they don't focus on political issues or even Gay Pride, they cram too much sexuality down the mainstream throats of the heterosexual public. From a political activist
cause perspective, that's just stoopid. How do people react when things are forced on them? Yeah.
"And if marriage is for a union between a man and woman for procreation,..."
Is it? I'm not sure that it is. Marriage is, and traditionally has been, for a union between and man and a woman, and because of its religious origins I suppose it follows that marriage is therefor for the purpose of procreation. Getting married and starting a family usually go hand in hand. But it has evolved into a social institution as well as being grounded in religion. For a myriad of reasons, more and more people are procreating out of wedlock, rather than within the traditional nuclear family, and its because of that that gay marriage has a shot, but only if it's handled properly, i.e., without emotion.
"... then why do we have so many babies born without unwed "parents".
Uh, oh. Such a simple question, yet I could write volumes as to the reasons this, and many others, of today's ills. And it's gonna take me off on a wild tangent. I'll keep it brief, believe it or not....
The simple, easy answer is "the moral decay of society" and is one that makes Fundamental Christians the happiest. But it's got nothing to do with that. If you go back to when it started, when the increase out-of-wedlock births began to happen with increasing frequency, and to when attitudes about it and many other things changed, you'll see that it coincides with two things: Forced Integration via the Civil Rights Movement, and The Pill, which fostered the Women's Liberation Movement.
I won't get into Forced Integration much here, as it's mostly related on the periphery of this issue and more on-point to other issues of the day, but it is more intertwined than it may seem. Basically, Forced Integration forced something on people that would have happened naturally if left alone, but in its own time, and was therefor an unnatural occurrence. Aside from the fact that often when something is forced on people they tend to eventually hate that which was forced upon them, something that happened at the time and is still evident today (which is why things are more divisive between the races and subcultures now that at any time in our history), the simple fact is that when any species is forced to live in an unnatural or unfamiliar environment their behaviors about many things, even things seemingly unrelated to it, will change while they are trying to adapt.
Behaviors about things like rebelling against what was forced upon them, certainly, and failing that they will rebel against whatever they can, be it each other, authority, anything traditional, including the traditionally accepted social behaviors and personal responsibility.
".......it all comes down to sex."
Enter... The Pill.
Ah, The Pill. My goodness, nothing ever freed so many women in so many different ways. Independence! And all of the wild and wacky behavioral changes that come with any dramatic environmental change, and right on top of Forced Integration no less, and all of the environmental and cultural changes that spawned. A double whammy, mammy. The pill quickly became a very important tool in the liberation of women, not because it freed women to sleep around without fear of procreation, but because it allowed women to be economically and emotionally independent.
Before the pill women could not have sex without the risk of pregnancy. Pregnancy meant the end of economic independence, the end of freedom. A pregnant woman became immediately dependent on the man who had impregnated her, for she did not have the economic independence to support herself, either. If he refused to take on this responsibility she had to resort to dangerous alleyway abortions, or have her baby adopted. If he married her she was totally dependent on his earnings for the survival of her and her child.
The Pill broke that link in the chain that had eternally tied women to men. If women could plan when to have babies they could also plan not to have them. They could decide to have a career without being ambushed by their own biology. They could opt for education without feeling that they had to chose between the brain and the body. The Pill changed the way in which women thought about themselves, their men, relationships, personal responsibility, and opened the door to Women's Rights legislation that then made economic independence a reality for women.
But it also gave her sexual freedom, both within and without marriage. This fueled a fundamental shift in personal responsibility, and blurred the lines between right and wrong. And it forever altered the way men look at women. Women no longer had to have a man to survive, they could go out and get a job on their own. The traditional role of the male was forever changed. That relieved men of even more of personal responsibility.
So you've got some major changes going on between men and women, and how everyone is interacting with each other in society due to Forced Integration already, add to that The Pill, and what you're left with is evolutionary adaptive overload and people who have never had to learn responsibility. Throw in the 60's and free love, flower power, Black Power, make love not war, if it feels good do it, counter-culture social revolution and a further degradation of personal responsibility and a breakdown of respect for all things societal, and that's a whole generation or two of skewed values and responsibilities.
And those people begat
us!
There ya go. We're still trying to catch up and adapt. Things are just crazy, when compared to the 1950's, anyway, and what you're left with is what we see today, not the least of which is a bunch of unwed mothers who think there's nothing wrong with it, and a whole snotload of out of control homosexuals who think they should get everything they want just because they want it.
"And just one more thing......I have patients that are intersex, who do they get to wed?"
I'm gonna go with... anybody who will put up with them.
The thing is, I'm right there with you on almost all of this stuff, except the whole "same rights as everyone else" and the marriage thing, because it's not the same rights. But the irony is, if the same-sex marriage crowd would just leave the "M" word out of it, human nature pretty much guarantees they'll eventually get that, too.
Take the Civil Union and run with it. It's already becoming more of a social thing than a religious thing, anyway. People (straight ones, anyway hehe) can get married by a judge, which in and of itself is a departure from the religious ties to marriage and takes it to a civil thing. A gay Civil Union "marriage" will by default become the same thing as a marriage, cause that's how people will refer to it. Same as Kleenex instead of tissue, same as Velcro instead of hook and loop closures, Civil Union will become the de facto generic Married.
Why can't you guys see that?
Or is it truly more about victory than winning?
