California is SICK

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
Now they are letting homosexuals get legally married. I guess they will be able to adopt know to. I know alot of you will be saying oh let them do their thing. Look at history. All the great empires of history flourished and then fell after embracing homosexuality. I'm glad my state added an admendment to our Constitution saying marriage was between one man and one woman and we will not recognize a gay marriage from a state where it is legal. America is turning into Sodom.
 

redytrk

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
California is sick?... I`m the one that's sick, and vomiting ,from seeing these people kissing on national TV.

As for California, I won`t cry when it falls into the ocean.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Ya know Joe...50, 60 years ago it was sick when black and white mixed together.. said then it was an evil thing and I still don't like the idea of mixed marriages....now look it's completely ok....

Gays can do as they please in my book it's thier life and have the same rights as a mixed marriage and you and me....I may not like it but hey it's thier right in the land of the free....or is that free as long as it suits the majority?
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
I would certainlky hope that Americans who are not blesssed to live in our beautiful state would have something else on their minds,like the ECONOMY,and THE DEAD YOUNG PEOPLE and FUEL PRICES. But oh no,lets rant about WHO FREE PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY.
Good God people,it's 2008,wake up and get serious. How is your life affected by what goes on in San Francisco ? The millions of people who flock here from around the world don't seem to mind. Many are from Europe where they long ago quit being concerned about what anyone does with their lives. I guess it's still a big deal in some parts of the country,and that's a shame.
Jews,gays,trans genders were all people on Hitlers must die list. Who's on yours? (as if anyone cares except for the homophobic few among us).
It's a beaufiiul day in San Francisco where,thank God,we are concerned about saving the earth and keeping the likes of w and his oil croonies from drilling off our coast.Over my cold dead body.
Go out and get some exercize Ark and focus your energy on something productive,like opening your mind.California is not only not sick,we have knocked down yet another wall that divides people. That in and of itself is about as healthy as you can get.
I'm headed to the beach.
 
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theoldprof

Veteran Expediter
Who cares what these people do in their own homes. A few years ago, and this is true, a couple gay guys had adopted a kid. This kid had a bro or sister who was to be adopted. The gay guys wanted to adopt the other kid and have the two siblings together again. Local people heard about this and the foster parents who were keeping the unadopted child rushed out and adopted the kid to keep him/her away from the gay couple. Later on it was found out that the foster dad, now the adopted dad was molesting the girl. Not the gay guys. Now, the siblings are adopted in different families, they are not together, and the one little girls "daddy" is in jail for child molest. Would have been a heck of a lot better off if the two gay guys had adopted the second child.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Prof... while I agree with the idea that the girl would've been better off with the gay guys, that's like asking me if I'd rather a kid's arm be cut off, or their head. Neither is acceptable to me.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
For the record, I'm not homophobic. I have a cousin that is queer. My wife and I spend quite of time with him and his life partner. When he asked me what I thought of the situation I told him it was wrong for him to be shacked up with another dude. It's all good because the Congress has a National Marriage Bill before them right know to say that marriage is between one man and one woman. Anywhere in the U.S. I know California TallCal. I used to stay there. They also won't let you whip your kids there. I'm happy to stay in the backwards, redneck, CHRISTIAN, state of Arkansas.

TallCal I also believe in being good stewards of the enviroment. I think we should take care of what God has given us. I know this is an entirely different topic, but I don't agree with all of the chemicals used in agriculture even though I have profitted from their use in the past.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Tallcal, this is not a wall that has has been knocked down that was dividing people. Gay marriage is not about marriage, it's about yet another special interest group forcing their wishes upon the majority.

In the United States and other similar cultures, marriage has become a social institution, but it is first and foremost, and is still very much grounded in, the institution of religion. A Civil Union would give same-sex couples all of the legal rights that a marriage would. In fact, a marriage presumes and mandates the legality of a civil union by the issuance of a marriage license, which is a civil document. But a Civil Union without the attachment of the word "marriage" to it is unacceptable to gays and lesbians, even though a Civil Union gives them precisely what they are asking for. In other words, they don't really want what they are proclaiming, which is the same legal rights as any other married couple, but rather to force their will onto the religious connotations to redefine marriage as they see fit.

They aren't asking for equal rights in marriage, they're asking for special rights. Because most of the world's religions, and the dominant religions of America, all denounce homosexuality, gays and lesbians are just as much, if not more, concerned with "winning" against religious attitudes as they are about equal rights under a Civil Union. Civil Union wasn't good enough, they wanted to go after the Marriage word.

In Europe and other countries, same sex marriage isn't as widely and enthusiastically embraced as you would like to believe. The Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and Spain are the only European countries to offer marriage to same sex couples. That's it. Four of 'em. Outside of Europe there are but two, Canada and South Africa. And Canada and Spain are the only two countries where same sex marriages have exactly the same legalities as traditional marriages, with there being no differentiation of marriage types. The other countries named above, as well as about 22 other countries, have varying legal status within the context of marriage, or within the registered partnerships, civil partnerships, domestic partnerships and civil unions.

There are a handful of other countries (twenty one of them including the US) where some time of legal partnership (most are highly limited, some not so much) is allowed in some parts of the country, like here in the States, where we have 9 states (including D.C.) that allow civil unions and the variations: California, Hawaii, New Jersey, Vermont, Connecticut, Maine, Washington, Oregon, and Washington, D.C.

This is a hot topic world-wide, so don't for a second think that Americans are behind the times, or worse, that Californians are the "enlightened ones".

Funny thing is, the notion of same-sex marriage in gay and lesbian circles is actually the conservative bent of things. The more liberals of the bunch want "marriage" and all the legal rights thereof to encompass "couples" of three or more intimate, lifetime partners. And apparently, there's a whole bunch of those out there.

Wooooo. There ya go. Now yer talkin' slippery slope type stuff. Where does it end? I've got a friend who has been a part of just such a lifetime threesome. (OK, so he's not that close of a friend, just a friend.) But, if one or two of them die, the survivor(s) currently don't have a legal leg to stand on, with the exception of their Wills. What do they do? I dunno. They don't get married, tho.


Incidentally, all three of them wear a wedding band. It's all very weird.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
You know, it's all ok.... Seeing that there may be a change with it in the future.

Truly I have nothing against anyone who is gay, as long as they do not need to tell me this or force me to be PC about it. I think that the rights of partners and others should be a solved issue without getting into the gay thing - meaning that you don't have to be gay to take care of a friend in any legal regards, if you understand what I am saying.

BUT

Here is the problem for me....

It is not the gay thing but the gay movement which aligns itself with groups like the man/boy group or some of the fringe sick groups who promote a lot of child pron. If the gay groups who have been fighting for eqaul rights under any civil rights laws, then they in order to be taken seriously must disavow these other groups and step away from any support of them.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
I have lived in San Francisco my entire life. I have never been approached or solicited or annoyed by any man looking for a good time . I have more gay annd lesbian friends then I could count. Greg,there is a difference between pedaphiles and homosexual men. I would have thought you were smarter then that.
Child molesters look alot Catholic Preists,as well grandfathers as well as ,you get my point.
The sex trips to Cambodia are straight,everday sickos that have zero to do with gay men.
It's not a gay thing ,it's a pedophile thing. Why do I have to educate you people on this?
Your all bright people who are just stuck on this topic.

Ark,I would suggest you look the word queer up in the dictionary,I think your cousin might appreciate it. He and his partner deserve the same respect from you as any family members. I suppose if he was a Klansman he would be subject to less ridicule then being gay. I sure hope not.
You know,slavery did end in the south in 1860. It ended for about as long as it took the south to make new laws to replace the so called Black Codes. Federal laws outlawed owning individuals,the codes had to go. So,the southern cotton farmers and turpimtine maufactures just changed a few laws,and made it punishable to be a "vagrant". That was any black man that could not immediatly prove he was employed by a white man. if he could not,he was then arrested,and owned by the local police chief and could be sold to or traded to any business man needing cheap labor.They lived in horrendous conditions and were beaten and starved and humiliated,and were not paid. This went on until 1940,when blacks were needed for the war effort,and were "freed" for a second time. If you don't believe me it's because you don't wish to believe me.It is fact.They are just now finding mass graves from the 30's in all southern states including Arkansas.
That means there are retired black people alive today who lived through this and lost family member to this injustice. I will direct you to a new publication that chronicles this inhumane treatment of fellow Americans under this program.
If you don't get RAP music,keep in mind that this second wave of legal slavery I speak about was in this century,and the grandparents of many of these young rappers had good reason to distrust whites,and that it will take more then 50 years or so to heal. Can you imagine hearing tales of torture and being hog tied and being forced to work naked chained together and not be angry? And you want to talk about the right of two people to get married in San Francisco.
If your looking for a cause Ark,maybe you should look a little closer to home. Your history should madate that.I'm sure you have black friends,perhaps you might learn a little about black history after the civil war,with a focus on the 20' s and 30's.
I know you were a jarhead and lived in Oceanside years ago. I would suggest that Oceanside has little to do with the rest of California.It's an extention of a Military Base as are most towns close to base's. if you ever want to visit the real Californain,let me know,my door is always open.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
Actually I know the difference, thanks.

But the point is that when they, meaning the main groups who represent the gay community, talk about rights they also include these other groups. I would, and I think others would too take them seriously if they make a clear distinction that they don't support these other groups.

AND thanks for the history lesson, here's a bit of a correction.

Slavery ended in 1865, not 1860. Lincoln wanted to have it end about the turn of the century but didn't live long enough to get that done.


Amazing enough that you mentioned black laws, which you are pretty much correct in the purpose and the depth of them but you forget a few things….

The north didn’t want to end slavery, they didn’t care about the south after the war and didn’t want the freedmen in the north to take the jobs away. We did use the southern, not only the blacks but the whites in the 40’s to help with the labor shortage in the north. Detroit became a mecca for both of them and it led to a couple riots in the ‘40s.

A number of republicans, both northern and southern viewed the south as a clean slate so when reconstruction took place, they felt that they could not only bring the south up to speed with the north but also promote equality in order to keep the freedmen in the south.

There were a lot of groups from the Democratic Party who were successful in taking advantage of the south. Even though in today’s twisted revised history, the term carpetbagger is meant to be a northern republican who stole and suppressed the southerner, but if you dig deep enough through some of the history, narratives of the 30’s especially, you will find that a large number of carpetbaggers were in fact democrats, and northern blacks. Oh and let’s not forget who the red shirts were, that great peaceful civic group who tried to screw the southerner, both black and white by any means necessary. They were not the republican’s version of the klan but the democrats version, and they were very militant. They were one of several groups who wanted to restore the democrats to power in the south to keep the freedmen down and in most of the cases they succeed through intimidation, threats and physical harm. Sound familiar?

After the war, we got our first black senator, bet you don’t know his name? I know that it is not taught in schools and it wasn’t Obama. You do know there were two of them during reconstruction?

I talked to a son of a slave; he was in his late 90’s when I met him in the early 80’s. He told me of a few stories about his father experiences (it is nothing like the revised history says it was) and what happened when the northerners came to his town – all democrats. When they could finally vote, his father always voted republican. He too voted republican and his last election before he died, he voted for Ronny, your buddy.

Oh and one last thing, the people who claim we are still in slavery mood are the ones who want it that way. Most of the people today don’t really think or care about color as much as some make it out to be. But we really are turning the dial back to the 50’s because being over sensitive about words and things. Too bad no one listened to that guy who said not to look at the color of ones’ skin or their race but the person themselves… yep too bad no one listened.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
I spent quite a bit of time in Palm Springs actually. Not to long after 9/11. I guess I shouldn't call my cousin a queer. I'll call him what he calls himself. A :censoredsign:got. Actually slavery wasn't abolished in 1860. It was abolished in 1863 with the Emancipation Proclamation. Funny thing about that piece of paper is it only applies to the "States in Rebellion". Everyone wants to bring up slavery and say it was a Southern thing. It wasn't. It was an American thing. Pennsylvania was a slave state at one point. Most of the people who owned, financed, and insured the slave ships were out of Boston, MA.

People want to cry for blacks in the south. They have it made in the "New South". They have it made. Most don't work. They don't have to. The ones that do get pretty good jobs just because they are black. Alot of people have gotten scared to deny certain things to blacks out of being sued. All they do is sit around and complain and talk of how they want to go back to the "Motherland". I wish they would go back.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Ark,
The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't enforced until the invasion of the south took place by Grant and Sherman and then it really wasn't enforced much. A lot of the union officers ignored the orders and let things go as they pillaged marching to the sea.

But here is something for others to gnaw on, you know that they had some problems with raising troops in the north and people like Chamberlin knew that they could use freedmen to fill the union ranks, but the generals and even Lincoln had his doubts of how effective a fighting force they would be, if at all.The problem for the north was the south was already using freedmen in the fighting ranks and even early in the war, some who were captured and let go returned to fight the north again - there were no prisoner exchanges for freedmen. These were freedmen, living in the south. Not much has been said about it in the revised history books, Harvard did a great study on this issue and I will have to look for the book they printed in the 70's. But remember that the average southerner did not own slaves and could not afford them even if they wanted to. They look at slavery as a rich man's means to compete with the average southern farmer, many times the slaves lived better than the farmers who were living day by day or week by week and reconstruction destroyed a lot of what they held onto in the way of hope of prosperity.

AND there is a bit of controversy, Slavery is still going on in Africa and many parts of the world and no one cares. For example, the Mexicans allow human trafficking to take place within their country and we in the US receive a large amount of these people because of the open border (you want an open border with easy immigration, then you want slavery to take place). This does not only include women and men but a large number of children for sex.

We don't hear all about it, the news does not like to report these things. You don't hear about the children who are sold on the Guatemalan border to end up in here being a drugged up sex slave, but instead we hear about Miguel and his wife in Mexico, who he sends $300 dollars of tax free money home to buy tortillas for his 5 brats. I don't think the people of this country should say a thing about the history of the country, what we is going through today, consider any apologies, build more museums or anything else for that matter until we start taking a stand against modern slavery.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
TallCal,
Let me tell you something. Don't go making comments about my family not giving my cousin a hard time if he were in the Klan as opposed to being gay. No one gives him a hard time as it is. You don't know a d@mn thing about us, old man. Keep your comments to yourself. I like the debate, but I never comment on your family so why comment about mine. Since you know people from the South so well you know we don't play around about people talking about our families. Keep my family's name out ya mouth. That's something we say down here in the backwards south that means don't say anything else about them.
 

arkjarhead

Veteran Expediter
My history teacher at the college told us of slavery in Africa as well as the Middle East. He said there is a charity he gives to where you can buy someone's freedom for them for 45 bucks.

From what I understand most white men in the south were happy to see slavery abolished. You know why? Because they didn't have to compete with free black labor any longer.

I honestly think the reason TallCal turned the tables on me is because he knows his state's courts were in the wrong. The people of California had already spoken at the voting booth and said they did not want gay marriage, but you know how liberal judges are. They justed to stand out from the crowd. Things have changed alot. A guy was telling me last week when his granddaddy was sheriff in Drew County Arkansas back in the good ole days if he knew of a couple shacking up together he'd go run them off. Now we got homosexuals getting married the same way regular people do.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
....
"You know,slavery did end in the south in 1860. It ended for about as long as it took the south to make new laws to replace the so called Black Codes. Federal laws outlawed owning individuals,the codes had to go. So,the southern cotton farmers and turpimtine maufactures just changed a few laws,and made it punishable to be a "vagrant". That was any black man that could not immediatly prove he was employed by a white man. if he could not,he was then arrested,and owned by the local police chief and could be sold to or traded to any business man needing cheap labor.They lived in horrendous conditions and were beaten and starved and humiliated,and were not paid. This went on until 1940,when blacks were needed for the war effort,and were "freed" for a second time. If you don't believe me it's because you don't wish to believe me.It is fact.They are just now finding mass graves from the 30's in all southern states including Arkansas.
That means there are retired black people alive today who lived through this and lost family member to this injustice. I will direct you to a new publication that chronicles this inhumane treatment of fellow Americans under this program."


TallCal - I, and I'm sure, other native Southerners would very much like to see this "publication" and any other sources you might have to substantiate the above statement. I've lived in the South for 60 years and have never seen or heard of anything that remotely resembles this "historical account". Could this "publication" be just another work of fiction - More revisionist history dreamed up by some flower child or radical left-wing bomb thrower designed to create animus toward white Southerners? At first glance I'm inclined to think that's exactly the case - totally fabricated bee ess started by arrogant, condescending West Coast elitists that couldn't find Mississippi on a US map if their life depended on it. If even one of these "mass graves" had been discovered does anyone think for a minute that it wouldn't have been all over the national news? At any rate, we'll anxiously await the revelation of your sourcing which I assume will soon be forthcoming.
 
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always confused

Seasoned Expediter
history has a funny way of changing over time, depending on who is looking at the information, and how they choose to 'interpet' it.

ref slavery: i current reside in alabama. some interesting facts that most current histories choose to ignore...
the first slave sold in the public market of huntsville was sold to a free black.
percentage of whites who owned slaves vs freed blacks who owned slaves ... highly skewed as most blacks did and only a few whites did. native americans also practiced slavery, and weren't particular -- any race would do.

ref jim crow laws: yes they did exist, and served to oppress blacks ... and poor whites.
any reading about share cropping will easily substantiate this. as to being a 'new form of slavery' ... don't think so. actually most slaves in the south were freed only to be 'employed' by the northern generals who took over running the plantations for their own profit. you would be hard pressed to produce any 'pay records' for this labor.

did the southern justice system use prisoner labor... yes. was it fair no. was it slavery..
no. actually the prisoners were paid a token 'wage' for their labor. mass graves?? i think the national media would be in a feeding frenzy...

an interesting side note... under jim crow there were more sucessful black businesses in the south than in any other part of the country. percentage wise as a portion of the population more black businesses were open then than today.

as to calif being sick??? i doubt that my thoughts matter to them. but since this is the soapbox... yes. i agree its an attempt at social engineering similar to legislation by judical decree not law. this tactic is favored by liberals who cant get the law 'they' want for whatever 'they' want... gun control gay rights animal rights hug a tree save a whale etc etc.. ...
 
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