Caffee's Cascadia
- Thread starter TeamCaffee
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This DEF thing is an interesting development. I am hearing that truck fuel economy has improved with SCR technology (which requires the DEF fluid).
I'm thinking about fuel surcharges that are based on fleet MPG averages. As old trucks are replaced with new, and improved MPG averages influence the fuel surcharge calculation such that the fuel surcharge is reduced (more MPG, less money for fuel), but the cost of actually improving your MPG comes from buying these significantly higher-cost SCR engines and incurring ongoing DEF expense, does it work in the owner-operator's favor after all is said and done?
To get improved MPG, we must pay for things (some very expensive) that are not fuel. And because we are using less fuel, less fuel surcharge money will be paid. To the extent that these new SCR trucks are more expensive to purchase and operate, drivers must be careful to recover all of their costs and be mindful of profits when pricing the services they offer.
I don't see anyone who pays a fuel surcharge talking about bumping it up a bit to include the cost of DEF. That may change but not anytime soon, I fear.
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moose
Veteran Expediter
Phil, i know of one southern Cal. shipper hoe impose an SCR surcharge, they pay more to have a new truck handling the freight.
crazy if you ask me.
i think that new SCR trucks are NOT getting better fuel millage.
they cost more to buy, can carry less freight, cost more to operate, and will have less resale value.
in ALL EOM's advertisements, those engines are compered to an EGR's / DPF's motors !
since those new trucks CANNOT compete in the market place, we see EOM's and ATA seeking legislation to take older trucks off the roads.
Ever wondered why ALL truck manufacturers are in favor of a MANDATE shorter stopping distance ? same rezone, eliminating competition by regulations.
crazy if you ask me.
i think that new SCR trucks are NOT getting better fuel millage.
they cost more to buy, can carry less freight, cost more to operate, and will have less resale value.
in ALL EOM's advertisements, those engines are compered to an EGR's / DPF's motors !
since those new trucks CANNOT compete in the market place, we see EOM's and ATA seeking legislation to take older trucks off the roads.
Ever wondered why ALL truck manufacturers are in favor of a MANDATE shorter stopping distance ? same rezone, eliminating competition by regulations.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I absolutely agree.
As for the DEF situation, lifes a b*tch when you come down to it so I can't see any reasoning behind the idea that carriers should be raising FSC to compensate an owner/driver for something that amounts to less than a penny a mile of an additional cost. IT would be like I am asking for extra money because a gallon of oil I use went from 19.95 to 21.95.
Just some numbers that relate to this conversation:
When we had our truck built, Diane and I paid $90,000 for the 2006 Volvo day cab and chassis. It would cost $112,000 today to buy a similarly equipped cab and chassis. That is a $22,000 increase over five model years. The price difference is due partly to higher component prices but mostly due to government regulations that essentially require SCR engines.
An oil jobber in Fort Wayne says the manufacturing cost (manufacturing, not wholesale) for DEF is about $0.80 a gallon. DEF is not hard or expensive to make. It sells for $12.50 a box at our Volvo dealership parts counter. I am told it sells for $25 a gallon at GM dealerships where people buy it for their pickups and other light duty trucks.
The DEF markup is high but I would expect that to decline as the market expands.
Another cost that no one talks about will be the increased trash collection fees truck stops will likely pay. I see these discarded DEF boxes in dumpsters more and more. It does not take many to fill a dumpster. With increasing numbers of truckers buying these boxes and discarding them at the truck stops, the trash volume will rapidly increase, and increase the costs to have it removed.
When we had our truck built, Diane and I paid $90,000 for the 2006 Volvo day cab and chassis. It would cost $112,000 today to buy a similarly equipped cab and chassis. That is a $22,000 increase over five model years. The price difference is due partly to higher component prices but mostly due to government regulations that essentially require SCR engines.
An oil jobber in Fort Wayne says the manufacturing cost (manufacturing, not wholesale) for DEF is about $0.80 a gallon. DEF is not hard or expensive to make. It sells for $12.50 a box at our Volvo dealership parts counter. I am told it sells for $25 a gallon at GM dealerships where people buy it for their pickups and other light duty trucks.
The DEF markup is high but I would expect that to decline as the market expands.
Another cost that no one talks about will be the increased trash collection fees truck stops will likely pay. I see these discarded DEF boxes in dumpsters more and more. It does not take many to fill a dumpster. With increasing numbers of truckers buying these boxes and discarding them at the truck stops, the trash volume will rapidly increase, and increase the costs to have it removed.
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There is a LOT of places that are selling bulk DEF at the fuel areas. As long as we can get over 200 MPG and we have a 23 gallon tank we should never have to buy DEF in a box.
You may not have had your new truck on the road long enough to answer this question but I am curious to know, what was the price of DEF when you purchased it from a bulk tank at a truck stop?
Also, have you had experiences similar to nightcreacher where the bulk tanks were found to be inoperative?
When a truck stop can sell a 2.5 gallon box of the stuff for $13, I can see an inoperative bulk tank working very well to draw drivers in but then force a DEF purchase at higher prices. The database you point to above is a useful tool but it does not indicate if the DEF tanks actually dispense the stuff.
If I was a truck stop manager and could sell 2.5 gallons of DEF for $13 to a captive market that must buy the stuff, I would not be inclined to put a bulk tank in and if one was put in, I would be in no rush to fix it if it became inoperative.
Not to be too negative here -- write it off to skeptical me, and to my anger about increased costs due to government regulation -- but using the DiscoverDEF.com web site, and searching Minneapolis, our home express center, for DEF in bulk, the closest bulk DEF location is Saint Cloud, Minnesota, about 90 miles away. The next closest is Fargo, ND, 217 miles away.
Looking at the map, I see only one bulk DEF location in the entire state of Minnesota. When you live in Minnesota, that does not count as lots of places. There are many places that sell the stuff in jugs.
In the near term, the question will be, how much fuel will you be willing to burn to drive out of your way to save money on a bulk DEF purchase?
On a planned route, how many extra fuel stops will you be willing to make (one for the best fuel price and one for the best DEF price)?
TA's recent press release says it plans to have "about 50" bulk DEF tanks installed in its 244 TA and Petro locations by year end. For FDCC contractors who buy fuel only at TA because of the great discount, it seems there will be times when buying DEF in a box will be the only option unless you make a second stop where a functioning bulk tank can be found.
EDIT: I was able to answer the bulk cost question by reading Henry Albert's blog. He said on March 22 that he paid $2.599 per gallon for DEF at a Love's.
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I have read several articles with drivers cutting the DEF with water to drop the cost. I believe it was both Freightliner and International that are trying to find a fix as this method was tricking the engine sensors. At the end of the day through higher prices and constant bs with truck calibrations, I am not impressed. As for improved fuel economy, not really when you factor in the cost of the DEF. Add the downtime and additional trips for repair, and I wouldn't even say it is breakeven.
Talked to one dealer last week and they are toying with going to glider kits because of all the problems.
Something we are seriously looking at verses additional new vehicles. Biggest challenge is when we are only stuck with these new tree hugging machines.
moose
Veteran Expediter
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I completely understand everything you said but when we are looking at super duper road trucks with custom sleepers owned by people who are emulating others, it comes to mind that DEF and the needed fluids are part of the game.
As mentioned the glider kits are one solution, another is updating an older truck with post '99 to 2006 engine.
I have followed Rutherford's glider adventure and Pitt Power's mods and think if I was going to do this with a new truck, it would be a glider to start with and a post '99 to 2006 engine and maybe tweeking it with some special thing to take advantage of the CR fuel system to avoid the issue altogether.
I can see getting an older truck and putting a new drive train in it as a cheaper and better alternative than even a glider kit. BUT that's me.
The thing that I'm really driving at with my post is based on what Phil has been saying about compensating the owner/driver because of this. I don't see the big deal with the issue, it is like oil and other required things for any truck and the carrier should not be even considering compensation changes in FSC because of it.
moose
Veteran Expediter
It looks better on the wall next to the wedding and grandkids pictures...
Improved ride.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
moose
Veteran Expediter
You like it Jim ?
i drove one of those for 160,000 mil. ,and the front Air ride used to be MY 1st complain.
takes months to get used to, and i could not keep the steering wheel st8. always on the move.
the rock & pinion on my 2009 Colombia is the best steering i had in a truck,(at least in NA, to be honest).
and may i ask how many millage you get off a set of steers ?
i drove one of those for 160,000 mil. ,and the front Air ride used to be MY 1st complain.
takes months to get used to, and i could not keep the steering wheel st8. always on the move.
the rock & pinion on my 2009 Colombia is the best steering i had in a truck,(at least in NA, to be honest).
and may i ask how many millage you get off a set of steers ?
We really like it. Didn't take that long to get used to it. No issues with the steering. We have a Hendrickson front axle. Steers have 100,000 on them now and should go way past 200,000. 2 alignments and 2 rotations plus fairly new shocks. Truck has 757,000 miles and going strong.