Buy Health Insurance or Go to Jail...

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Yeap thats nancy and barrys idea of how the gov should work....1st the government feels they have the right to force the people to buy and pay for health insurance, then they feel that even though that is illegal and unconstitutional, they will imprison those who don't compile...But Wait, I thought the Dems were the party for the working class people...they are all about helping those in need....seems like good help here....:rolleyes:

Press Releases

PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail

JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail

Friday, November 06, 2009
Jim Billimoria or Sage Eastman (202) 226-4774
House Committee on Ways & Means - Republican


Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”

Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below:

“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]

- - - - - - - - - -

“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]

- - - - - - - - - -


“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]

When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.

“The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp.

According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.

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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That's just how arrogant Pelosi and the rest of those liberal *******s and *****es are. We will only see things improve when they are eliminated from all influence whatsoever.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Jail isn't going to be that bad, see after they get through with you with the CSA 2010 and you lose your priviledge to drive a commercial vehicle, you will be without a job and won't be able to find work with the 14% unemployment and not qualify to go on any assistance programs so you will lose your health care and the when you get to the hospital and they stabilize you for you nervous breakdown, the men from the Department of Health Care and Insurance will come by and pick you up to take you to jail where you will get the proper medication, food, housing and even provide you with neat looking uniforms and a job in the prison work house - it won't be as bad as you think.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well, the sheeple wanted change, they asked for a socialist wacko government, they got it. The camps ARE coming. The left is the same everywhere it goes. How many millions are they going to murder this century? How many will be inprisioned in gulags again? Still support these criminals? At least I can say that I NEVER did.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Layout wrote:

Well, the sheeple wanted change, they asked for a socialist wacko government, they got it. The camps ARE coming. The left is the same everywhere it goes. How many millions are they going to murder this century? How many will be inprisioned in gulags again?
Still support these criminals? At least I can say that I NEVER did
.

its amazing that those on here that supported him and told everyone to give him time, he desrves time, are no where on here to be found...guess they just don't have any realistic reasons for their support other then he told them he would "provide" for them through his "entitlement" share the wealth and take from the greedy and give to them who are "needy" and don't have as much as those that have...because it ain't fair...mentality...

Wonder why they don't come and support barry...he needs them now more then ever.....since he is failing...:D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Oh but Chef, Barry is NOT failing. He is WINNING!! His goal all along was to turn us into a Soviet Style or German Style state and he is DOING it!! He is over seeing the take over of banking, the auto industry and now health care. Steel will come soon as will control of farming. Where are the sheeple? Either still praising this vile man and government or hiding in shame. They have NOT the courage to stand up and say, I was wrong and we must stop this now. COWARDS.
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question or making a stupid comment, as I don't keep up on the day-to-day happenings re your healthcare bills.

What I'm getting tho, is that many Americans are totally against having the type of healthcare we have over here, where everyone (except illegal aliens) is covered, for whatever reasons you have (thoughts of inferior healthcare, whatever)..

At the same time, actually paying for healthcare services is way too expensive for normal people to afford if they actually get sick and need surgery / hospitalization, so they have to have an insurance plan to cover them for that possibility.

Then there are lots of people who can't afford the insurance, so they have none. They skim by without paying for anything, until such time as they become sick and need surgery / hospitalization. No insurance, can't afford the costs they're incurring... so who pays those bills? Someone does. Is it the government?

If lots of people with no insurance are getting sick and costing mega bucks, wouldn't it make sense to mandate that you must have insurance? What is the alternative? To continue to pay the outrageous healthcare bills for people who refuse to carry insurance?

As an outsider looking in, and admittedly not knowing all the details, it just seems to me that no matter what they try to do, they're wrong.

So..... what do you people who oppose 'free' healthcare for all legal residents, as well as opposing a mandated requirement to carry insurance, propose they do about this huge problem?

Should the sick that can't afford either healthcare or insurance be denied medical help? Is that your answer?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
In a FREE nation it falls on the individual to care for them selfs. Our health is costly do to MANY reasons, none of which is being addressed in ANY of these bills. Our health care will NOT cost less than it does now, it will cost more and the quality will go down. And last, the Federal government has NO LEGAL athority under OUR Constitution to require a PRIVATE citizen to buy ANYTHING!! Then using the FORCE of law, fines and jail to do it? Does NOT sound like a FREE country anymore. As to Canada's system, it is NOT my concern. I don't live there. I will fight it tooth and nail, I will NOT pay the fines and NOT submit to arrest. That is how a FREE man deals with the threat of tyranni.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
pj wrote:

So..... what do you people who oppose 'free' healthcare for all legal residents, as well as opposing a mandated requirement to carry insurance, propose they do about this huge problem?

They are already taken care of my ENOUGH government programs, no one goes without because that is against the law...as for who should pay, the hospitals have programs that pay, charities pay, and yes tax dollars pay..

The problem is forcing the people to buy a product, that is also illegal and the governmet knows it is...it is beyond their power to force people to pay for something like insurance...it is a TAX...and that is all it is....

And who says healthcare is too expensive?? yea some care afford it, so that means those that can should be forced to pay for them??? sorry nope....

Does the system need fixed? yes it needs work, but not the overhaul that the government wants to dump on the people..and the penalties that will be imposed on the people are simply not right or legal...even f this bs bill is passed, it will be challenged in court....

Then there is the fact that the government will collect money with increases in taxes on the rich that have the bg insurance policies for 3 yrs before the program even goes into affect..."pay me today, for something you might get down the road"....wrong....

yes the system needs fixed, but not at the expense of the majority for the minority.....

Why no tort reform!?!? because the lawyers support the criminal politicians...h*ell they have made it easier for the lawyers to make money... lol then in another part of the bill, the doctors need the OK of a government panel to give some care...that same panel can deny a certain treatment, so the doctor can't forvide it...so later if it is found that that deied service would have saved the life of the person, the doctor that was not allowed to give that treatment because a government panel said no, can be sued, but not the government that turned down that treatment...so no tort reform is offered that would lower cost...

Where is the ability to buy insurance across state lines??? other then buying for the goverenment, or the "Co-ops" the people will still have to buy from the same companies that they do now, at increased prices , as long as the companies can stay in business and have to sell their product against the cheper government run programs.....

Yes the system needs to be fixed, but not at the expense of those that can afford to pay for their own, and certainly not with a government run system....
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Layout wrote:



its amazing that those on here that supported him and told everyone to give him time, he desrves time, are no where on here to be found...guess they just don't have any realistic reasons for their support other then he told them he would "provide" for them through his "entitlement" share the wealth and take from the greedy and give to them who are "needy" and don't have as much as those that have...because it ain't fair...mentality...

Wonder why they don't come and support barry...he needs them now more then ever.....since he is failing...:D
My guess is the plastering of cut & paste and the lack of even a semblance of respect for any viewpoint contrary to the few who dominate the Soapbox now has driven them away.
As you've already said numerous times that you don't care what other members think, your 'wonderment' is pretty hypocritical, is it not?
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Apologies - it was the Chef who said he doesn't care what anyone here thinks [about his wallpapering]. Nevertheless, the point remains: there is zero respect for any opposing viewpoint, which discourages participation from other members who may see things differently.
And who has time to refute the misinformation that we read here? I don't, so I just don't join in any more.
You guys have it all to yourselves now - enjoy. But don't bother asking why no one wants to 'discuss' issues, when you can't hear anything that disagrees without ridiculing the poster.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
cheri wrote:

Apologies - it was the Chef who said he doesn't care what anyone here thinks [about his wallpapering]. Nevertheless, the point remains: there is zero respect for any opposing viewpoint, which discourages participation from other members who may see things differently.
And who has time to refute the misinformation that we read here? I don't, so I just don't join in any more.
You guys have it all to yourselves now - enjoy. But don't bother asking why no one wants to 'discuss' issues, when you can't hear anything that disagrees without ridiculing the poster.
__________________
yeap i said it and i still holds, but that shouldn't stop you from standing up and supporting your opinions, unless they aren't as strong as you want others to think....and if the heat of having your opinion and point of view disagreed with is too much, that also soeaks to just how strong your beliefs are also...can't take time to back up your beliefs because you view point isn't respect by those that disagree.....weak....and yes we will continue to enjoy the fact that we have the ability to post here, ty Lawrence....but others have the same ability, so not using it is on them, not those that chose to post....letz, witness, and a few others post and most often their opinions are disagreed with as they disagree with others, but they still post and share their opinions....so to question those that felt it necessary to to post and support barry and his ideals before and even in his 1st few months in office seems like the thing to do....why not voice your support for the failed ideals and policies that the one you support is trying to force on the people??? I mean it was you that said he needed time, that he was trying to control corp. greed, that he was going to fix all that was wrong...so why no respince to the many articles that come out daily that show he is not what he saud he was??? Embarrassed??? Remember you are the one that said none of this political stuff is "personal" to you.....and as for respecting others opinions, your right, when it doesn't work for me, i respect that you have the right to have an opinion one way or another, but i don't have respect for the opinion...not when it doesn't agree with mine....and i really don't remember anyone that i have ridiculed at all...please show me...opinions, yes, but not the person...

I think if you look, it is me that has been ridiculed and been called names including being called "stupid" today, but you won't find any post where i have called any member here any names.....
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I'm not going to bother arguing with you, ok? Just like the many who used to participate in discussions, it's not what it used to be, and I have better things to do.
Case in point: Pjjjjj asked some very good questions, but the response was a rant on how the government has no right to require citizens to buy anything [but they do, and have done, for many years]. The answers to her questions were nowhere in evidence - so why bother to ask?
I used to enjoy the debates, but the rants are mindless and monotonous, IMO.



 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
yea we all liked something from the old days in something in our lives, but things change...you know new members come and old members go and you have change...you know like barry and his hope and change...and as you said, In your opinion....and has for the answers to Pj, you don't like the answers so they are rants, thats ok, you are entitled to them,

and please show me where we are legally forced by the FEDERAL government to purchase anything..and don't use auto insurance as the guy in the WH did, its a state mandate, not a fed, and it is to protect a product and also to protect a loan holder if one is there..and you are not required to protect yourself, has the fed would mandate you do with the illegal mandate that the people purchase healthcare....seeya...:D

PS:

cheri wrote:

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, ok?

Nooo don't defend your position, that might take more time then you have....must not be too strong of an opinion ....
 
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FIS53

Veteran Expediter
PJ illegals here do get free healthcare! Yup our courts have told the govt to give them coverage while the govt determines their status and also if they just show up at a hospital not a problem. Did you know that the hospitals don't care whose health card you present? Happens here in the GTA a lot. Go in and present any OHIP card and get served even if the picture is not you, don't matter. Yup this is happening right now with our system even though the picture version was created to reduce the fraud (not). Only good part to ours is that you can get served sometime. Our costs for drugs are lower as well which really helps if you have to get a lot of meds.
Rob
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
the US government also mandates that illegals get coverage..no one ca be turned away...no matter where you are from or who you are....look at all of the border state hospitals that are closed or broke because of the illegals getting care.....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm not going to bother arguing with you, ok? Just like the many who used to participate in discussions, it's not what it used to be, and I have better things to do.
Case in point: Pjjjjj asked some very good questions, but the response was a rant on how the government has no right to require citizens to buy anything [but they do, and have done, for many years]. The answers to her questions were nowhere in evidence - so why bother to ask?
I used to enjoy the debates, but the rants are mindless and monotonous, IMO.




You lost me Cheri. What does the FEDERAL government REQUIRE me to buy under penalty of law? I am aware of NOTHING. Also please show me where in the Constitution of the United States that it gives the Federal Government the authority to do so? I am not arguing, I am lost on what you said. I do ask you, if this is such a good idea, why must it be done by force?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
PJ illegals here do get free healthcare! Yup our courts have told the govt to give them coverage while the govt determines their status and also if they just show up at a hospital not a problem. Did you know that the hospitals don't care whose health card you present? Happens here in the GTA a lot. Go in and present any OHIP card and get served even if the picture is not you, don't matter. Yup this is happening right now with our system even though the picture version was created to reduce the fraud (not). Only good part to ours is that you can get served sometime. Our costs for drugs are lower as well which really helps if you have to get a lot of meds.
Rob

Are your drug costs all that much cheaper across the board or just on generics? I know that thousands of Canadians cross into Michigan on a regular basis to purchase medications that are NOT available under the plan in Ontario. I also know that thousands cross into Michigan on a regular basis to get care that they would either have to wait a long time for in Canada OR to avail themselves of treatments and proceedures that are not readily available in Canada. NO system is perfect. ALL have MAJOR flaws and ALL COST!!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question or making a stupid comment, as I don't keep up on the day-to-day happenings re your healthcare bills.

Don't feel so bad, much of our country can't follow it let alone want to. Too much information is put out there to confuse and frustrate people so they can cave in and say 'what ever'

What I'm getting tho, is that many Americans are totally against having the type of healthcare we have over here, where everyone (except illegal aliens) is covered, for whatever reasons you have (thoughts of inferior healthcare, whatever)..

I think what scares a lot of people is the change to any system that we don't have control over which in our case we do. There is really nothing wrong with the government "helping" people out when they need it but it is the forcing us to make changes to something that works for the majority of the country in order to cover those who don't have health insurance.

At the same time, actually paying for healthcare services is way too expensive for normal people to afford if they actually get sick and need surgery / hospitalization, so they have to have an insurance plan to cover them for that possibility.

I don't agree with that, simply because I am one of the examples of being without money and having something major happen, not once but twice in my life. I been without insurance several times in my life and when these events happened, I didn't panic but decided to force the issue onto the doctors who then were willing to work with me, not against me.

Then there are lots of people who can't afford the insurance, so they have none. They skim by without paying for anything, until such time as they become sick and need surgery / hospitalization. No insurance, can't afford the costs they're incurring... so who pays those bills? Someone does. Is it the government?

First off this has always been the case, only in the last 15 years it has been a "national crisis". The cost of insurance has gone up too much not because of the insurance companies but because of things outside of their control. One is the mitigating factor involved with this is the punitive damages awards related to medical lawsuits, where in some states there are no limits at all. The other factor is the mandates from the state who actually regulate the insurance programs which should be uniformed.

You must remember that the government doesn't pay a dime in anything, they can't here because we are the government. For every dime spent in for an uninsured person, the cost to the tax payer is 60 cents so the one reason why we need to "insure" people is to bring down the mandated costs affiliated with court orders that everyone must get care.

If lots of people with no insurance are getting sick and costing mega bucks, wouldn't it make sense to mandate that you must have insurance? What is the alternative? To continue to pay the outrageous healthcare bills for people who refuse to carry insurance?

Yes that is a logical solution but then other factors come into play, like the need to limit within a budget the care a single person ro family gets. If there is mandated insurance, and the insurance company is not allowed to compete for subscribers, they have a limited amount of revenue that they have to spread thin which means that something has to give. If they are in a state that mandates tattoo removal which is generally $5000 a tat, and one of their subscribers has say 12 or 14 of them to remove, when they look at high cost medical procedures like bone marrow transplant, they may say "ok we got $70,000 going here for tats so we have to limit the medication to prevent rejection for the lukemia patent" and without telling anyone the doctor has to look at what they can now give and base his medical decisions on just the insurance company's inablity to pay. I know that a lot of people will say this happens but it happens in HMOs more than anywhere else.

As an outsider looking in, and admittedly not knowing all the details, it just seems to me that no matter what they try to do, they're wrong.

So..... what do you people who oppose 'free' healthcare for all legal residents, as well as opposing a mandated requirement to carry insurance, propose they do about this huge problem?

I would like to start with harmonizing the mandates through out the 50 states. Eliminate this idea that tattoo removals take place over other procedures.

The second thing I know would help is force the states to allow competition over state lines, they don't not because of anything medical but because it is a revenue maker.

The third thing is we need to start cutting back on medicaid and medicare with some of these frivilous things - viagra for medicare subscribers?

The fourth thing that can be done is simple tort reform coupled with a national doctor licensing system where one doctor can't take off to practice somewhere else. With that, we need to limit the amount of foreign doctors who don't go through our system.

The fifth thing is with medicare Part D tell the pharma compaines the same thing your country did - we will pay for X drug at this price - no negotiations and threaten them with pulling their patent on the drug.

Should the sick that can't afford either healthcare or insurance be denied medical help? Is that your answer?

Here in this country, unlike other countries anyone who shows up to a hospital must be taken care of. Many times the hospital will provide some sort of follow up care but there are a growing amount of doctors who provide free or near free services.

Remember they, our government who has yet to do anything right, wants to change an entire systtem that works and gives us cutting edge medical care to cover everyone at the cost of those who can afford health care - in other words we have 317 million people in this country, only 12 million have no health care and can't get proper care (it is no where near the 47 million they claim) and that works out to less than 5% of the people who actaully need health care. Instead of takign the stimulas money which has done nothing for us, we could have taken care of 24 million with it and had change left over.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
You lost me Cheri. What does the FEDERAL government REQUIRE me to buy under penalty of law? I am aware of NOTHING. Also please show me where in the Constitution of the United States that it gives the Federal Government the authority to do so? I am not arguing, I am lost on what you said. I do ask you, if this is such a good idea, why must it be done by force?

ummmm, Social security? Medicare? Dont pay the tax and see what the penalty is.They also require you to buy everything the federal gov. does, call it a tax or whatever anyone wants to but dont pay your taxes and there is a penalty
 
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