Big Bang: Is there room for God?

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Upon what evidence do you support your conclusion that "this isn't a giant cosmic accident"?
I am aware of the evidence that supports the opposite conclusion, but if there's any that supports 'creationism' [or whatever you wish to call it], I haven't seen it, so please share.
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
. . . this isn't a giant cosmic accident. don't do as i did arguing your point from one side without honestly researching any opposing evidence.

Yours is a compelling story. Going from a science based Atheistic viewpoint to believing in Adam and Eve was a huge 180 degree turn about.
It really would be interesting to hear the specific result of your research that set off the light bulb in your head.
Not being condescending here or judgmental, just genuinely interested.

Thanks. :)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Humble said it better, but it's what I'm asking, too. I've read of the scientists who changed from atheism/agnosticism over time, but in every case, their reasons were on the order of "It's too complex" or "Too awesome" or some other subjective feeling. I can respect their feelings, but it's just not evidence, is what I'm saying.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
i define evidence as something that either proves or disproves something, how do you define it?
The same way. The problems come when that definition isn't put into practice, when people confuse assumption and proof, when people use evidence incorrectly to prove or disprove something that the evidence itself has nothing to do with thus does not prove anything at all. A clear example of that is, for thousands of years, a volcano eruption was direct, incontrovertible evidence that the volcano gods were angry. Whoops.

Another example, a common one, is someone who uses some oil additive, like Lucas or Motorkote. They'll say, "I've used it for two years and there's been no problems." Which really means, "My engine didn't explode, therefore ergo it works. And not only that, it works great!" which is an extreme example of an illusory corollary, as evidence that the additive works, yet it proves nothing. The only thing such a scenario proves is that there may or many not be problems, and if there are you are unaware of them.

To pretend that problems which you are unaware of cannot therefore exist, is an exercise in credulity (willingness to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility). In the case of a motor, it's junk science, but has all the markings of an oil additive religion. The only way to know if there are any problems with the engine is to use the scientific method of observation and experiment in tearing down that engine and inspecting it for wear or other problems, and comparing it to the same and other engines before and after the use of the additive. That's a lot of tearing down and rebuilding, and it's just easier to assign a quick and dirty cause and effect that satisfies one's own preconceived beliefs in the matter.

People will oftentimes use an illusory correlation (seeing a relationship between two or more random events where no such relationship actually exists) to prove cause and effect as evidence of something. They confuse cause and effect with simple coincidence, and label it as evidence. It's the bread and butter of most religions, and the cornerstone of junk science. For both scientists and religious folk alike, it's very difficult to set aside long-held beliefs in favor of the truth of scientific evidence. Refusing to believe something in the face of scientific evidence is not skepticism, it is the height of credulity.

If I pray for you every day to not get into an accident, is the fact that you didn't get into an accident evidence that my prayers worked? Of course it isn't. But people will nonetheless make that cause and effect connection and label it as evidence of truth. If a pitcher has a no-hitter going through 7 innings, don't mention it, because doing so will cause him to give up a hit in the 8th or 9th. Same thing. It's called coincidence, and a lot of people have a significant problem accepting the concept of coincidence. They'd much rather assign some other significant, more meaningful action to it. They take comfort in things that are easily explained and understandable, often dismissing the truth for what they can otherwise more easily understand or that which disrupts their beliefs. This is true of both religion and science.
 

gospelriders

Seasoned Expediter
cheri,turtle and humble sent you pm's. let me know if you got them, laptop logged me out towards the last one and not sure now if any of them went through. thanks
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I replied to the pm, but I wanted to add something: I read of a study done years ago by a group who wanted to establish whether prayer makes a difference in the recovery of sick people. They were hoping to prove that it does, not just because it fit their agenda, but because it's such a wonderful 'tool': free, easy, no side effects - what's not to like?
They made the study as scientific as possible, and used prayer groups to do the praying for one group of sick people [figuring the groups are more likely to get a positive response, being organized and all] along with family members, but the final results were disappointing: no appreciable difference in recovery between the prayed for patients and those who did without special requests for healing.

BTW: is it ok to pray for a selfish purpose, ie something for one's self? I always thought not, but maybe I got it wrong....

 

GandJ

Active Expediter
I replied to the pm, but I wanted to add something: I read of a study done years ago by a group who wanted to establish whether prayer makes a difference in the recovery of sick people. They were hoping to prove that it does, not just because it fit their agenda, but because it's such a wonderful 'tool': free, easy, no side effects - what's not to like?
They made the study as scientific as possible, and used prayer groups to do the praying for one group of sick people [figuring the groups are more likely to get a positive response, being organized and all] along with family members, but the final results were disappointing: no appreciable difference in recovery between the prayed for patients and those who did without special requests for healing.

BTW: is it ok to pray for a selfish purpose, ie something for one's self? I always thought not, but maybe I got it wrong....



That's interesting. I thought I heard and read just the opposite findings...... Is this the study you read about?Scientific Evidence for Answered Prayer
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I believe Pandora's link [thanks for that!] is the study I remember, because it was the largest and most credible of the numerous attempts to answer the question. The bottom line is the final quote in the story, from the director of the Institute that provided the prayers for the study, [referring to the failure to prove that prayers helped]: "We know prayer works, we've seen it work."
I was hoping for different results too - as I said, prayer is free, easy, and has no unfortunate side effects, but the fact is it didn't work. Bummer.
 
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