Asian Carp

[Slo-Ride]

Not sure how but like I said stop their exits.Trap em where they are and go from there.
We are going to spend alot trying to pick em out of each lil area trying to stop the spreading
it seems to me that the fist step would be to stop em from spreading from where they are now.
OVM stated its working up north I dont see why something in order of whats being down up north wont work here????

Well I gotta get rolling ,,See ya

 

[greg334]

Layout, the problem is we have other issues that should be address within the lakes and especially in this state, like revamping the DNR of this state. The DNR is a mess up cluster**** of an organization which p*sses on land owners.

Shut the canal, use trucks/rail to move the goods and contain the situation. Worry addressed.

The canal is a man made thing, the carp is a man made problem, commerce will survive. The gaming industry here is also dying, so maybe we need to not worry about that and worry about jobs and training and use an easy solution by closing the canal. But also shift some of this money spent on roads and jobs for people who were going to be laid off in the winter time and use it for some real tourist things to attract people to the state - we have NOTHING in this state that people actually want to come here for.

If the fish in the great lakes are in danger, then we need to consider what we are doing wrong as man. We need to address sustainability of fishing outside of the great lakes, why and what happened to allow the release of these fish and correct these problems.

Nature is amazing, there is always some way to fix the problem.

In this case we have been playing God with other things, why not come up with a way alter the DNA or figure out how to sterilize male fish in some of these species lines and let the line die off? We spent how many millions on containment and stupid solutions but altering fish and introducing those fish to mate with existing stocks has worked with other animals in the past.

OVM, They are not like the carp you are thinking about. They are edable and if cooked right taste good. The problem is they are boney like other fish.

 

[layoutshooter]

Oh, I agree, Greg. Close the canals. Commerce is EASY to fix compared to what will happen if these fish get into the Lakes.

Fixing the DNR will be harder. The head of the DNR is a VERY good and well respected person. I have met her 3-4 times. She is well known to wildlife people, a Michigan native who loves the State and it's natural resources. She is, however, faced with almost an impossible task. How to please everyone and STILL do what is NEEDED to insure sustainable wildlife and fish populations?

Many land owners do NOT want to do what may be needed. It is their RIGHT to do as they please with their land. Rights carry responsibility and not all live up to that.

There has NOT been an increase in hunting license fees for years. They are needed. On the other hand, Michigan is 49th out of the 50 states for NON-hunting and fishing monies being spent for conservation. Right now, Michigan sportsmen are footing MOST of the bill for ALL of the conservation work being done in the State.

Our congress is a waste. City people are allowed to control hunting and fishing regulations WITHOUT paying their fair share or even understanding what the REAL world is about. They can, and have, been able to cancel hunting seasons in Michigan.

We need a NEW agency in Michigan. A Fish and Wildlife agency, split OFF from the DNR. It should NOT be controlled by politicians AT ALL and NOT subject to public goofiness. ALL seasons and laws based solely on REAL science and NOT foolish emotions. Fees assessed to ALL Michigan residents since ALL benefit from robust natural areas.

This will NEVER happen since, for the most part, no one in Michigan cares EXCEPT for the sportmen.

 

[Steady Eddie]

They hurt ya too....here is a good video part 1, after it plays you'll see part II

YouTube - Asian Carp Invasion Part I

 

[layoutshooter]

Several have been hurt by this carp. They "attack" boats, jet skis etc.

 

[Jack_Berry]

illinois just poisoned about 6 miles of the illinois river to kill what they could. that river that was reversed was the chicago river so the effluent went out the sanitary canal and not to the lake(see link below). hard to envision a problem like asian carp before there was massive international sea commerce to the frt lakes. heck zebra mussels were the last terror back in the 80's and they got slowed down. this will also.

here is a story about that poisoning.

The Associated Press: Single Asian carp found in Chicago-area fish kill

and the opposing view

Lawsuit seeks to keep Asian carp out of Great Lakes | Reuters

i would think if the carp get up the mississippi they will be all over the midwest and then up the missouri and THAT is the longest river in america.


check out this guy and his baseball bat. just like a batting cage.

More bad news (plus a glimmer of hope) about Asian carp | freep.com | Detroit Free Press


just google the news and insert aisian carp.....


o yeah, that chicago river reversal. here it is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_river#Reversing_the_flow

zebra mussle below this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_mussels

gonna hafta change my font color if all the links keep popping up in blue.

 

[layoutshooter]

Yes, the zebra mussles have slowed down for now. It is unclear what is going on with them. This carp is a real problem. When I was hunting a few weeks ago I was in the company of a DNR bioligist, he is VERY concered.

As far as I have been able to read only ONE of the carp turned up dead in the section they poisoned. Closing the locks for now would cause few problems that are not easily overcome. Keep them out until we can figure out the answer.

Once in it may be too late. It is NOT worth taking the chance. At least in my and many bioligists opinions.

Thanks for the other views, it helps to understand all sides.

 

[greg334]

Many land owners do NOT want to do what may be needed. It is their RIGHT to do as they please with their land. Rights carry responsibility and not all live up to that.

Layout,
I don't agree, the person at the top is not doing a good job, what needs to be done won't be and the landowner is at the mercy of the DNR, for example wetlands created by changes in the area because of development does not mean that they are wetlands that should fall under the DNR's right to regulate. voluntary restoration of wetlands should but that is and should always be the right of the owner to decide what is done to their property. The right to own and do what you want to do on the property has been circumvented by the rights of the DNR in many many cases.

The wildlife is flourishing, the water game is also on a comeback and when you can fish in places like the Cass river when there were once nothing there to fish, they did their job to restore it but when is enough enough?

Yes hunting fees haven't been raised but they should not. There needs to be a serious revision on how we license and what the state can offer, other states offer lifetime licenses, limits on age (ever been shot at by a 80 year old who could not see but heard something that sounded like a deer?).

Their funding is diverse, they got a lot of federal funds that keep the cost low but they also have fees that you don't see as a sportsman. Their officers can be overzealous at times, and in a few cases don't follow the letter of the law when there is no crime.

The state needs to revamp everything from the top down, the DNR is on place they can improve a lot.

As for the Carp, they closed the canel, poisoned the fish and what did they find?

Well isn't like we are killing things jost to stop a threat that can be stopped other ways? How about closing the canel and fishing the h*ll out of it? There are enough people who need to eat.

 

[Slo-Ride]

After running thru (and away) from parts of Chicago yesterday
I was noticing what I think maybe some of these canals (ditches).
What I seen was a bunch of listing rusting tubs that looked like they haven't moved in quite awhile,,Piles of debris stacked along the banks,whether it be piles of ashalpt, chunks of concrete,piles of wood,etc etc,,trash floating thru the water. All with no activity of any trade what so ever..No saying there isn't any commerce in those canals but I didn't see any..

 

[layoutshooter]

Well Greg, we will just have to agree to dis-agree. S.E. Michigan has lost more than 99% of it's wetlands since it's pristine days and the remainder are in great danger of being drained for development. Migrating waterfowl are now starting to pass up the S.E. side of Michigan due to lack of habitat. Most duck numbers are way up over last year but the numbers passing through Michigan are down by a large amount.

Yes, some rivers are cleaned up but even those efforts are under threat by the push for bio-fuels. Fertilizer levels are starting to rise in the Lakes again, NOT a good sign at all.

Remember one thing about the DNR, it is ONLY able to do what the congress allows them to do. They also are often forced by our congress to do things that are NOT good for wildlife OR landowners.

I do think that if you ever had the chance to sit down and talk with Rebecca you MIGHT have a bit of a different insight as to what is happening. It is NOT a simple task.

Keep one thing in mind. She was NOT the choice of our governess. Granholm wanted a true, died in the wool anti-hunter in that job. He is a lawyer with the U.S. Humane Sociaty. Which is one of the biggest anti-hunting/fishing groups in the Nation. We, the sportsmen, put on a letter writing push to get this woman in, she is VERY well repected in her field. We were able to get over 380,000 letters to the governess. Even she could not dismiss that.

 

[greg334]

Look here is the thing, I agree that we lost a lot of the land that should be left alone. I also agree with the problems we have with water fowl not having anywhere to go, I would rather have goose sh*t on my lawn than most people I have as neighbors.

Take a drive up to Macomb, Mt Clemens area along M59 and see what is there. When I was going up there to work in 1980, there was an open country, hunting and farm markets all over the place.

Imagine that there were farms and farms and more open land with some residential areas and a good balance.

The developers push and push to make money, they built on everything to make a buck and then there was flooding up that way and the people complained about it but never understood that there was a purpose for those farms, to provide a place for water to go. My sister lives up in that area, her home was built in 1935 and she was spared the big flooding and until I showed her how the system worked, she was one of those who complained that the state needed to address the problems.

I hate development of land that could be used for farming with all this open lawn we have in Detroit and the tri-county area - Pontiac comes to mind.

 

[layoutshooter]

One of the problems is that the DNR is NOT a landowner advocate. Their mandate is habitat protection, restoration and wildlife management. Those mandates OFTEN conflict with the rights of private land ownership. That make it VERY difficult to fix the problems since BOTH side are RIGHT!!

I think the problem is mainly one of lack of education. Bioligists in general don't speak well with people. They, and the State are NOT good at communicating the problems we are facing.

When given the chance to sit down one on one with them they are able to make it clear. They don't seem to be able to do it on a mass scale.

Landowners need to accept some of the responsibility for this as well. Most demand the RIGHTS of private ownership but few today are willing to accept the REPONSIBILITY of stewartship. We share this planet with other species. It is a black eye on mankind when we just destroy any chance of their survival and SOMEDAY, if this continues, we WILL do enough damage to kill ourselves off.

When I was younger there were quail all over S.E. Michigan and now they are all but gone. So is the cottontail rabbit. Small game in general is being wiped out by poor farming practices and un-controlled developement.

Waterfowl, except for geese, are being hurt more than most. Wetlands, including the "marginal and seasonal" wetlands where MOST of the breeding occurs are being drained in Michigan at an alarming rate.

If we are not careful we will join Ohio and California in the dubious position of having lost 98% of our wetlands. Not something to be proud of.

State wide we have lost close to 50% and in S.E. Michigan there is less than 1% remaining. There is about 7000 acres under State control that is protected but in bad condition. The rest is in the hands of private land owners and they are draining away what is left quickly. Soon it will be gone.

I don't know how to fix this but something has to happen. It is a very sad legacy we are leaving behind.

 

[oncedrove]

Cox is in the fight now.

Cox takes Asian carp suit to Supreme Court | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

 

[layoutshooter]

It is about time, hope he wins this one. I wonder why Canada and the rest of the Great Lakes States are not involved? They all have as much to lose as Michigan does.

 

[Jack_Berry]

they aren't involved because it is still "illinois' problem".

"let us wait and poin the fingers of blame at the army corps of engineers who let them into lake michigan".
nothing is real until it is in your backyard.

Comprehensive study of the Chicago waterway system to define where and how many carp are in these waters, and to eradicate them;

this is simple....put a boat in the water and count the flying fish. could be fun over this holiday to see if the fish make it back into the water. bring your goalie gear.

 

[layoutshooter]

There have been some boater injured when these fish hit them as when they jump at the boats. Goalie gear is a good idea!

 

[Dabus1952]

The comment about Chicago and the nasty dirty canals. The only place that, could have been was along side of Interstate 55.on the south side of Chicago .To be frank with you that canal is so polluted that the carp wouldnt survive there. The carp are coming up the Chicago river.Yes they were found near the lake michigan inlet. Mayor Daley is very aware of the Problem and trying to prevent them from entering lake michigan.They have posioned a 6 mile strech of the river, set up some trapping device.I think it will be controled Chicago has a lot riding on this as well.The Fishermen on charter boats, the tour boats in downtown.The harbors this all comes down to big money. For all of the Great Lake states,Therefore it is in there best interst to kill the invasion before it gets out of hand.The media can over play a story when things are slow. Or maybe its the Al Gore factor Global warming .

 

[layoutshooter]

They should have never made it up as far as they have. They were aware of the problem 15 years ago and did little over that time to stop this. There was an attempt made during the Bush administration but the bill was vetoed, mainly due to a zillion add on amendments that had nothing to due with this problem. As per normal they took a solution to a real problem and turned it into a pork barrel. The mayor of Chicago can do little except legal noise, it will take action at the Federal level. The Feds control the locks that need to be closed. The electric barriers they have are not foolproof.

 

[greg334]

Hate to say this but it seems that this is an issue that is not important to a lot of people and is no where near the crisis that it is made out to be like the massive amount of people dying every day because their insurance company cut them off after they found out that they lied about that cold they had 20 years ago and forgot to tell them they had to go to the doctor's office twice in one week.

There are 16 senators and there are 125 representatives all from Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York - a total of 141 people in the federal government who don't seem to be concerned about this issue enough to demand the canals to be closed. What happened to the EPA's involvement or the Obama's administration telling the Corp of Engineers to shut down the canal?

Let's not forget Canada and their anal approach to natural resources (which is the right way to look at this issue), I haven't heard a peep out of them about this issue but again I am looking at the Detroit papers and they still think Canada is an extension of the US.

Instead of worrying about health care reform and New Orleans not getting enough money to rebuild, if this was a real crisis, then congress should act with some determination to solve a real problem.

The sportsmen/women and the people who derive their living from the lakes should be the ones telling congress, or better yet demanding congress to act on this issue. They will of course forget about this issue when it comes time to vote and look forward to the new health care plans they will have to get.

They, the sportsmen/women, the commercial fisherman/women will forget about the nice tasting carp being a problem when they are pulling that level for Democrat party here in the state. Because almost all the people who put Jenny in office don't fish and think shrimp are caught without heads and Fish Sticks are bred that way, the public in general just don't care enough to make a stick about some fish.

I don't see anything really happening that will help the issue and Cox's move as silly as it seems does make some sense - sue the fish.

By the way, the Bush adminstration could have done a lot, there is something called an executive order that would have forced the corp of engineers, the EPA and even shifted funding away from silly things like rebuilding New Orleans or the war on terror. It didn't have to be placed in a bill because the last time I checked, he has control over the canals, more so than does congress.

 

[layoutshooter]

I guess that if Michigan loses another industry it just won't hunt anyone. What is another 3 billion dollar lose to the State, not to mention the jobs loses, which will be high.

I am not an eco-nut. I don't fall for every sob story out there. There is good, sound science to back this up. It will cause serious damage to the Lakes, that everyone who lives on them and gets their water from them will pay for. If they get established there will be a drastic decline in water quality. These carp, as all carp, eat the very vegetation needed to filter our water. Only these carp are much bigger. In their native waters, which are much like the Great Lakes, they can reach up to 300lbs.

It is not just a problem for sportsmen and commercial fisherman and the fix is not expensive. There is no need for this to happen.

I did not mean to give Bush a pass, he could have done more. It was more of a slap in the face of Congress and how they load up on the pork instead of dealing with a single issue.

Greg, you might not see how this is going to affect you now, and you and I might not live long enough to see the damage they will cause on the Lakes, but our grandchildren will. Mankind can cause great damage to our ecosystems. When the real science is there, the cost is low and the benefit high, why is it a problem to just fix it? Not everyone who looks at these problems are eco-wackos, some of them really know things.