Are you ready for DOT 2010?

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
With the new year just a few days away. Are you ready for DOT 2010? Drivers will now have their own DOT rating, everything you do now will be put on your DOT rating. This will make the driver more responsible for things. It's going to make the roads safer for everyone they say.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I think this will just be another way to put drivers out of work. They are going to "go after" independents. They only want to end up with a few "sort of private large trucking companies" and union drivers. I just hope I can hold out for a couple more years or that I am wrong.
 

fortwayne

Not a Member
It may not be a fail safe program, but, I do indeed believe it does provide the chance for all of us to contribute to a safer highway for everyone.

It will make us become more 'by the guidelines' when it comes to our daily vehicle inspections for just one example. I mean afterall, how many times do we see drivers just walk around the truck to make sure they still have all the tires and then take right off on thier trip. That is hardly a true vehicle inspection and I would guess that most of us have done that kind of inspection from time to time.

It will force the issue when it comes to repairs on a vehicle, it will force the issue of freight securement and much much more.

It may take awhile but it very might force the owner-operator out of business who will not put any money back into his truck for repairs - even though by not fixing his truck it endangers the public and fellow drivers. These are, in general, the same owner-operators that entered into the business with no money reserve and in most cases might not be paying their drivers.

Are we better off with or without these kind of drivers and owner-operators?
Bottom line - do your inspections correctly, keep your logs properly, and drive safely and by the book and you will have no problem in 2010 with this program.

If you don't - you directly wind up piXXing your own job and future down the toilet.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Don't forget, even if you don't drive your own truck, and get some "points" it will still go on your record. I am also under the impression that they are going back three years. That sounds a bit unfair and not truly a safety thing.
 

rikd57

Seasoned Expediter
It's usually about revenue, not safety! If it were about safety, cops wouldn't break the speed limit to make roll-call!
They should make a law that the bureaucrats who write all of these regulations have to have eight hours of sleep and be subject to drug and alcohol testing when they are writing all these policies! That would be good for the Congress and the Senators too, then maybe we'd get some sensible legislation!
 

porkchop1981

Seasoned Expediter
It almost seems like a taxable DAC system. You already have a federal file with your name on it when you get your cdl. Right now the only way to fault that file is for your employer to add the x marks by filing. I see this as a good and bad for sure.

Current laws fault the company name/# which keeps the driver (safe) when you fudge something small at your inspections.

The Con is that absolutly it will force smaller companies into the water. These are the mentioned companies that don't put money back into the truck and that pinch pennies to operate on a day to day basis. It means the larger companies will thrive on this happening, but isn't that what always happens? Also, the fines issued will most likely now go to the driver vs the company.

The Pro is that this will most likely make the driver more responsible for his/her vehicle. It means the guys that just wing things will be hurting their owners and putting them into the Con section. I think something like this is actually needed as you will pay much more attention and not write things off so quickly if your the one at fault.....You won't be able to BS your way out of something and the blame won't be places on anyone but yourself (driver)

I personally think its a way for the feds to make up a little $$. If you've ever noticed, when things can't be controlled or knocked out, they make laws to control, regulate and in most cases TAX the problem (beside drugs) lol. Again, its not such a bad deal really because it already basically exists, we all just seem to think as long as we (drivers) don't abandoned our truck somewhere, or wreck it that our name is clean and clear.....I think it will sharpen our ways of trucking, being that now you will have to look out for yourself, and if you don't.....more then just you will be suffering.

Maybe I'm way off, or didn't get the right words out to explain my thoughts, but.......yeah.....

Chop
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
but these infractions don't stay forever on ones record...i believe they expire in 3 years...

bad thing about DAC is only drivers get nailed not owners...

The driver enforcement process provides FMCSA with the tools to identify problem drivers and to verify and address the issues. The new Driver Safety Measurement System enables Safety Investigators (SI) to evaluate roadside
performance of drivers across employers over a 3-year period.

says nothing about going back 3 years.

Also it doesn't start till July 1st of 2010
 
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Scuba

Veteran Expediter
One problem is with compaines telling a driver to get it to the yard for repairs and if the driver does that and gets pulled in for inspection he gets screwed. The drivers now need to tell the compaines nope you send a truck out here and fix it in place. I can see big compaines letting drivers go for not taking the chance on bringing it to the yard. If that happens they need a way to address that.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Let's divide up the issues to get a grip on it first;

The driver is going to be completely responsible for logs, repairs, pre/post trips, paper work and operation of the vehicle. IT seems to include VAN drivers because there is no exception to the program I could find for under 10k vehicles which means it will not matter whether you driver a VAN or a truck - it is only that you drive a commercial vehicle under a carrier authority that matters.

The company will be responsible not much more than it does now, they have to have an intervention program and written policies in place to deal with the driver - already assuming that the driver is the fault for the issues.

With that said, this is a reactive program and does nothing to solve unsafe drivers on the road or make the roads safer by properly identifying bad drivers but instead deals with the "after the face issues". Seriously think about it for a minute, what does a road side inspection actually uncover, there is a 1 in 300 chance that there would be something serious enough to put that truck out of service with a minor issue that can be repaired on the side of the road while there is a 1 in 750 chance that they will find something that is a major issue to put that truck in a shop. The same goes with the driver, log violations (driver fatigue) is not a major problem but a money maker in comparison to the company forcing a driver to deliver at a specific time or else.

As much as it may seem the case, it doesn't put the burden on the driver as much as it should - nothing has really changed when you come down to it because it doesn't change driving behaviors.

So here are the real problems;

the first thing is the company will be able under CSA 2010 to do some nasty things to you in the way of reports, logs and paper work - it is a very good way to force EOBRs to be put into every truck as a company mandate and play with some drivers. The company who uses paper logs and an outside auditing service should be forced to have an reporting policy for the driver to be notified that there is a problem with a log within a 7 days of receiving the logs but many reporting cycles are outside of 30 days if at all, my company is over 30 days.

The second thing is the inconsistency with annual inspections (ever have an inspection where the mechanic just signs the paper work?) and road side inspections matter a lot without any recourse the driver needs to have. The real problem is that the driver will have to know what to do and how the truck works in order to maintain right - no more of this how do you adjust the brakes cr*p. I understand there may no longer be the road side fix with the driver sign off unless the driver knows how to fix the problem right there and can prove it to the officer.

The third thing is as I said before, this is a reactive program, which has a lot left out for obvious reasons - the ATA and the big companies are welcoming this because it doesn't shut the door on the present recruiting and training system and it doesn't address bad drivers as they are being produced. IT does not address the need for proper training or accountability with their training methods or tightening up the testing across all the states This allows a large company to still recruit and train for numbers and if the driver screws up, even if it is a problem that the company should have fixed, the driver is disposed of and the company fills the seat. For us it is a completely different story, we have two large companies in the expediting business here and their approaches are completely different in both fit and form, all others are small carriers.

What everyone can do is simply start doing what they should have been doing all along - covering their a**. Make sure your logs are perfect, do pre/post trips and log them and play by the paper work rules, OH and refuse work that puts you near or into an Out of Hours situation which is a nice red flag. Learn how to adjust brakes and inspect them right (this may be the most important thing to do), learn how to look for problems and correct them (fan belts and hoses) - do not depend on the mechanic, most of them don't give a sh*t about you. If you have an older truck, go get a bi-annual inspection instead of an annual by a place that you can trust - use them to catch problems before they are problems on a road side, remember it is not that you want to cover up something but find it and fix it. If you are a p*ss poor driver, get into a program so you don't get a ticket or cause an accident.

Remember with this program, the company is not your friend, but they are now part of a system to cover their a** and you are just another contractor to them.
 

TeamCaffee

Administrator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
Here is a interesting web site for CSA 2010:
http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/general-expediter-forum/39956-you-ready-dot-2010-a.html

If you want to see how the rules will affect you as a driver:
CSA 2010 DSMS (Driver Safety Measurement System) Methodology

There are many pluses to this new system if you have a clean record. From all that I have read as an O/O that maintains your truck and luck stays with you that a clearance light does not go out while pulling into a scale you will be a bonus to any trucking companies safety rating.

This system will also be good for the owner operators with their own authority as they will be rated against companies of the same size. The O/O with his or her own authority has the ability to quickly change and adapt to any law while the large companies are slow to change.

The big companies have the problems with drivers. If a driver leaves the yard and checks on the log sheet that the trailer and the truck are just fine on their log sheets then the driver will get the points. The list is huge on the points that you or the carrier can get but the bottom line is the driver needs to do a pre trip and if something is wrong it needs fixed. If you combine the Pre Trip with as EOBR the driver is really going to be put in a bind as well as the company who has drivers with no hours.

As a Owner Operator leased to a company with a great safety rating you should also get to bi pass most scales as you do now. The company’s safety rating is one of the key components with the Pre Pass system that will get you a red light.

Speeding is another way to have an officer pull you over and do an DOT inspection. One of the sore spots for the CSA2010 is even if you just get a warning the warning is just as bad as a ticket for points.

I am sure the companies are all ready starting to look at all of the trucks leased to them and going over their DOT inspections. If you as a O/O have a bad safety rating you are really going to have a hard time finding a company that will hire you as a driver or let you lease to them. Your rating severely affects them and also sticks with them for a period of time after you leave.

The bottom line for us is to pass all DOT inspections, no speeding, log books up to date and keep a low profile in 2010 and wait to see how many of these new laws they will actually implement.
There are many free seminars out there that you can attend online. The FMCSA just had one last week that was very informative.
 

fortwayne

Not a Member
greg -

that is the real point I was trying to make - JUST COVER YOU OWN A$$.....you do your job and you will not have a problem......assume everyone wants your a$$ off the road or everyone wants in your pocket, do your checks and balances and you will be fine.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I know FW, but some are making this out as a good thing and it isn't when you actually look at what can be improved on and what abuses can take place. Some who are in the good graces of their company will not notice or worry about it while others will.

OVM professional means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I think of a profession as someone who knows how their truck operates and be able to make repairs - albeit simple ones - while others think of it as how to choose the right place to get the wheels polished. Some think that it is projecting the company image and making them happy while not being able to drive at all.

But OVM you brought up another good point, if the company is now going to deal with issues that can effect them by the driver's behavior on the road, how will some companies handle a complaint by the public or another truck?

For example will say FedEx be forced to review the behavior of one contractor and possibly terminate their contract for bad behavior like speeding in a contruction zone which was brought to their attention by a motorist who almost ran into a barrier because of truck's driver inablity to control their truck?

May be now they will act instead of just ignoring the issue.
 

fastrod

Expert Expediter

I checked out that site and have a few questions. First, under the automatic fail violations no. 5, knowingly using a driver who does not possess a valid CDL. Does this mean that all van drivers will need a CDL? No.12 Failing to require a driver to make a record of duty status. Does this mean all van drivers will have to do a log book?

Under introduction to drivers it starts with" For the first time each commercial license holder will be assigned a safety record. If this is going to apply to everyone than van drivers will need a CDL or quite possibly they could care less about van drivers and are only concerned about trucks.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I have read it over and the only thing I read is "Commercial Vehicle" I did not find a weight requirement. No where did I find under 10,000 or any reference to vans....
Then again Bob's plumbing is commercial.

Must be something in there that states FMSCA regulated vehicles only. I hope...
 

piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
For example will say FedEx be forced to review the behavior of one contractor and possibly terminate their contract for bad behavior like speeding in a contruction zone which was brought to their attention by a motorist who almost ran into a barrier because of truck's driver inablity to control their truck?

May be now they will act instead of just ignoring the issue.

Actually Greg, I think they will ignore it now more than ever. Under the old system it would take a long time for a bad driver to be exposed by the DOT as not good, so carriers had to rely on other means (like your example) to ferret out the bad guys before it turned into a major event. Now the DOT will be doing the work and if the driver in your example is really a problem, he has likely been doing a bunch of other things wrong that will now be recorded.

Drivers and Owners with the "do it right every time" way of thinking have not a lot to fear with this system. The ones who are constantly bending or pushing the rules are the targets.

It will be painful for a few years for sure but the net result is it might....just might get this profession back to a level where 95% of the people in it are professional about what they do. You sure can't say that about trucking today. All the enforcement now is too company focused and it's too easy to just re-open under another name and go back to doing it the same way. Think about a certain guy in Detroit Greg who continues to "bridge" the gap and has had a multitude of companies in the last 15 years, all shady, all running junk, and all running with the bottom of the barrel for drivers. When the heat is on one particular operation it just vanishes. Now his supply of rule breaking drivers and their junk trucks will be affected and he can't control that.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I'm all for getting the careless/lazy/unsafe drivers [and their trucks] off the road, as they endanger me and my loved ones too. But as Greg says, it's another reactive program, which isn't nearly as effective as a proactive one would be. {Like Homeland Security].
It's troubling that the officials demand perfection from everyone else, while demonstrating their own lack of competence, IMO.
One particular worry for me is speeding tickets - I try my best to stay legal, but all it takes is one missed sign, and there you go, right? And even that would be ok if it were about safety, [as it used to be], but tickets are about revenue now: LEOs are aware that the money is needed to bridge shortages in the Dept's budget, and must write tickets to protect their own interests, [primarily overtime], not the public's.
I'd like to see a similar system in place to protect O/Os from untrustworthy people [like the officials at Arrow] as well - they just start over under a new name after they've taken hundreds of folks down the drain with them.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Actually Greg, I think they will ignore it now more than ever. Under the old system it would take a long time for a bad driver to be exposed by the DOT as not good, so carriers had to rely on other means (like your example) to ferret out the bad guys before it turned into a major event. Now the DOT will be doing the work and if the driver in your example is really a problem, he has likely been doing a bunch of other things wrong that will now be recorded.

You make a good point but here is the thing I am seeing and I got out of CSA training, the company will have to mitigate their risks in a more proactive manner than ever before, some of it has to do with insurance and their need to rid the risks. The insurance company may use this to actually force changes in some companies who have a higher than desired safety rating.

The company will have to decide if the DOT (with something like 1 LEO to ?? motorist) is sufficient enough to actually be counted on to police the behavior of the drivers in their fleet or if they have to step up efforts themselves to weed out the problems. Bad behavior being observed is different from being caught and I know you will agree with that but the fact remains that in large fleets (FedEx, Landstar, UPS and so on) the problem becomes one that internal proactive mitigation may be the best course of action instead of external reactive solutions.

Drivers and Owners with the "do it right every time" way of thinking have not a lot to fear with this system. The ones who are constantly bending or pushing the rules are the targets.

True, but how many play by the rules right now? If we are talking about expediting, then there are time constraints and issues with dispatching through systems that force behaviors - in service time, acceptance rates, etc..

The one thing that a few of us were told is that many carriers will use the idea that they will end up paying or rewarding for this behavior which may not happen at all. In some cases, not to mention a specific carrier, their need to propagandize anything they require into a reward has its issues and that sometimes goes into playing a part in the bad behavior it is there to correct. I don't expect to see rewards like better rates for doing my job, do you?

It will be painful for a few years for sure but the net result is it might....just might get this profession back to a level where 95% of the people in it are professional about what they do. You sure can't say that about trucking today. All the enforcement now is too company focused and it's too easy to just re-open under another name and go back to doing it the same way. Think about a certain guy in Detroit Greg who continues to "bridge" the gap and has had a multitude of companies in the last 15 years, all shady, all running junk, and all running with the bottom of the barrel for drivers. When the heat is on one particular operation it just vanishes. Now his supply of rule breaking drivers and their junk trucks will be affected and he can't control that.

I do agree with most of that, but I wouldn't count on 95%, I think maybe something like 65% will end up being the magic number because it does not address the underlying problems with safety - training - while it is addressing other issues that need to be addressed, the problem with large companies will continue. Even if someone never has been caught by the DOT, they may have bad habits of even dangerous behaviors that may be too late to address, like depth perception or awareness of their surroundings. I would think if this was going to be effective, then it would be in combination of tightening up training which forces the economical training mills to shut and to force testing at a level that is higher than it has ever been.

I think this will also cause a bigger supply of bad drivers on the market, but as you said it will take a few years to show results.

It is easy to id the smaller carriers who are problems, even put a number of those out of business that have abused the system to make a buck but the larger ones seem to be the problem on the road because of their fleet size and this gives them the tools that they should have had to rid themselves of undesirable drivers. You know and I know that companies, pumpkin one comes to mind, produce poor drivers in a lot of cases because of their training system is geared for throughput, not quality and because of their size of their fleet and need, it is hard not to put someone who is poor driver in control and have them act professional under most situations.

I have seen some pretty bad driving by company drivers from US express and Pumpkin. A US express driver took out two trucks backing into a dock with his trainer sitting there next to him. While a Pumpkin driver hit another truck while turning around to go back through the pumps and out the entrance. While i have recently seen this with a Panther T/T driver, exiting out of the entrance, I seem to see it more often than not by large company drivers.

Oh and I forgot to mention a CRST trainee almost taking out my mirror, he was 5 inches into my truck space and three inches into my mirror space as he pulled up into a pull through spot. I heard his trainer tell him it is ok to touch my mirror, which I was really p*ssed about. I have the entire event recorded on video and it was sent to CRST to ask them when is it all right to touch my mirror - haven't gotten a reply back yet.
 
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piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You make a good point but here is the thing I am seeing and I got out of CSA training, the company will have to mitigate their risks in a more proactive manner than ever before, some of it has to do with insurance and their need to rid the risks. The insurance company may use this to actually force changes in some companies who have a higher than desired safety rating.

The company will have to decide if the DOT (with something like 1 LEO to ?? motorist) is sufficient enough to actually be counted on to police the behavior of the drivers in their fleet or if they have to step up efforts themselves to weed out the problems. Bad behavior being observed is different from being caught and I know you will agree with that but the fact remains that in large fleets (FedEx, Landstar, UPS and so on) the problem becomes one that internal proactive mitigation may be the best course of action instead of external reactive solutions.

I guess my point is, if the insurance company is going to use the new system to dictate to the carrier, then the carrier will use it because that's what they are being judged upon. Carriers will now have this system available to them as an additional way to monitor what the drivers are really behaving like, with this new source of information (a source that they have no choice but to pay attention to) they may be less inclined to listen to a report from a non professional, non enforcement individual as they have a new official source for the info. I think a company who acts on the public's phone calls now will be either less inclined to listen or behave the way they do now, as the CSA2010 information is going to come in and point out the bad apples faster and more accuarately that the present system does



True, but how many play by the rules right now? If we are talking about expediting, then there are time constraints and issues with dispatching through systems that force behaviors - in service time, acceptance rates, etc..

True enough, but, a carrier who encourages or demands this type of behavior is going to be faced with a dwindling driver supply and higher insurance rates. Both cost money and hurt profits.....tends to make the powers that be notice.

The one thing that a few of us were told is that many carriers will use the idea that they will end up paying or rewarding for this behavior which may not happen at all. In some cases, not to mention a specific carrier, their need to propagandize anything they require into a reward has its issues and that sometimes goes into playing a part in the bad behavior it is there to correct. I don't expect to see rewards like better rates for doing my job, do you?

I don't expect rewards for doing my job, however, if my carrier gives me one for being on time and taking runs etc and I have done so WITHOUT harming my personal CSA score then it shows I have better managed my time and business. Anyone stupid enough to aim for a carrier reward at the expense of their own personal record or safety should be off the road anyways. As far as rates go, do I expect CSA to push rates up.....maybe.....maybe eventually....but I do see it as slowing down the downward spiral rates have been in. My Detroit example, that guy has been flouting the rules for years and running auto freight cheap. His profits come from paying guys next to nothing, they in turn survive by running old junk and break any and all the rules, you know the group of companies I am speaking of, wouldn't it be great to get them off the roads?



I do agree with most of that, but I wouldn't count on 95%, I think maybe something like 65% will end up being the magic number because it does not address the underlying problems with safety - training - while it is addressing other issues that need to be addressed, the problem with large companies will continue. Even if someone never has been caught by the DOT, they may have bad habits of even dangerous behaviors that may be too late to address, like depth perception or awareness of their surroundings. I would think if this was going to be effective, then it would be in combination of tightening up training which forces the economical training mills to shut and to force testing at a level that is higher than it has ever been.

I think this will also cause a bigger supply of bad drivers on the market, but as you said it will take a few years to show results.

Like any government program it surely will take several years for it to achieve any real result. At first the industry will fight it. Then they will discover some loopholes in it. The loopholes will get closed. You will have over zealous enforcement and mis interpretation of the rules, this will have to be reigned in as well. But it attacks the problems from the most visible and best point to do it, you are going after the bad drivers, and as they disappear, the carriers that depend on rule breakers to make profits will go away as well. It will take time, there is no quick fix for any of this.

It is easy to id the smaller carriers who are problems, even put a number of those out of business that have abused the system to make a buck but the larger ones seem to be the problem on the road because of their fleet size and this gives them the tools that they should have had to rid themselves of undesirable drivers. You know and I know that companies, pumpkin one comes to mind, produce poor drivers in a lot of cases because of their training system is geared for throughput, not quality and because of their size of their fleet and need, it is hard not to put someone who is poor driver in control and have them act professional under most situations.

Exactly right! The large carriers are just as much a part of the problem as the small guys. While I think the large carrier eventually gets rid of the poor driver (eventually they cost more than they are worth) this system will hopefully purge the unqualified out at a faster rate. This will force the pumpkins etc. to improve the training they have to get the desired life expectancy out of the training investment. Bad drivers are everywhere, I want as many of them gone as possible, but what I really want to see is the companies that depend on the rule breakers to be profitable loose their driver pool

I have seen some pretty bad driving by company drivers from US express and Pumpkin. A US express driver took out two trucks backing into a dock with his trainer sitting there next to him. While a Pumpkin driver hit another truck while turning around to go back through the pumps and out the entrance. While i have recently seen this with a Panther T/T driver, exiting out of the entrance, I seem to see it more often than not by large company drivers.

I agree there are a lot of bad apples and of course you will remember more from the larger companies, the trucks are easily identifiable and someone like the pumpkin, if they have 1% idiots, they have more of them total than someone like Ted's Trucking. Ted might have 80 trucks but has 40 idiots. Right now, Ted has a 50 % idiot score and would be directly in the DOT's sights. But....the pumpkin......at 1% has over a THOUSAND idiots on the road. The current enforcement system goes after Ted and not the pumpkin....who is the bigger problem? By focusing the enforcement and scoring on THE DRIVER the pumpkin now becomes an enforcement target as well as poor old Ted, and the idiots get pulled off the road without being able to hide under the statistical largess of someone like the pumpkin. This alone, makes me believe the new system is a step in the right direction.

And for the love of God, when will I finally learn to do a multi quote reply properly!!!!!
 
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