Are we havng a Rosa Parks moment, sort of?

Turtle

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Relatively speaking, nice shift of the goalpost. Let's talk about modern history, where reasonably intelligent people realize that expanding freedoms to unpopular groups doesn't diminish their own freedoms.
There's no moving of goalposts. Constrain it to modern history (whatever that means), or within your lifetime, or within just the last 20 years, the statement stands, The "expanded freedoms" you speak of are not expanded freedoms at all, they are special rights granted to people who whined long enough and loud enough, not unlike a child, until they got their way. Gays have always, and I do mean always, in whatever goalpost distances you wish to construct, had exactly the same right to get married as anyone else. Gays have never been deprived of that right. The term "marriage equality" isn't even a thing. It is an invented term intentionally to replace "gay marriage" and same-sex marriage" in the lexicon as a means to an end of redefining marriage.

Same-sex marriage (a.k.a. marriage equality) was neither inevitable nor, until very recently, even conceivable. And the struggle for it was not, as is commonly believed, a natural consequence of the gay liberation movement that gained steam in the late 1960s. It was not until the late 1980s that merely securing legal recognition for same-sex relationships became a pressing concern of homosexuals. Prior to that, such recognition was virtually unimaginable, and not even wanted. The lesbian and gay liberation movements of the early 1970s didn't make marriage a priority, either. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most activists scorned the very idea of marriage, because that's what straight people do. Instead, activists fought police raids, job discrimination and families’ rejection of their gay children. But in the 70s a small handful walked into clerks’ offices across the country to request marriage licenses, and state officials realized that their laws failed to explicitly limit marriage to a man and a woman, which is no surprise, as no arrangement other than a man and a woman had been imagined. By 1978, 15 states had written this limitation into law.

At that time, "civil unions" were offered to same-sex couples and it was rejected out of hand, in part because the radical thought still ruled the responses, and in part because of the “traditional family values” movement that arose to oppose gay rights and feminism. Anita Bryant and other activists took aim at some of the earliest local anti-discrimination laws, and by 1979 they had persuaded voters in several cities to repeal them. Subsequently, in more than 100 state and local referendums, gay-rights activists had to defend hard-won protections. This, not marriage, consumed much of their energy.

Then the 80s hit and the AIDS epidemic, along with what was known as the "lesbian baby boom" changed everything. Gays were now dealing with family and probate courts, hospitals, adoption agencies and funeral homes, visitation rights and survivor benefits and rights, most of which were denied to them. One of a couple of long-time partners died, and the survivor had no say in anything, the house, funeral arrangements, anything. A lesbian couple raises a child, the biological mother dies, the court awards custody to the biological mother's next of kin without even considering the surviving partner. Those things are clearly wrong. Once again, civil unions were offered, and again rejected out of hand, this time because of the religious "traditional family values" movement that gays were determined to beat, and because they were spittin' bubbles because Reagan never once mentioned AIDS in public.

Couples used wills, powers of attorney and creative new legal arrangements like domestic partnerships and second-parent adoption to try to get around these legal injustices, which in and of itself was pretty impressive considering the reigning conservatism of the ’80s and early ’90s. But even throughout all of that, none of these creative legal arrangements could provide the Social Security, tax, immigration and other benefits that only marriage could bestow. The same-sex marriage movement emerged out of that mess, but it was always still about more than legal benefits.

As same-sex marriage began to gain steam in the 1990s, anti same-sex people (religious and normal people alike) fought to prevent the legal legitimization of homosexuality, which same-sex marriage would (and did) do. As part of the fight against the opponents of same-sex marriage and to cope with the various state laws that defined marriage as being between a man and a women, the term Marriage Equality was invented as a way to beat people over the head with "How can you be in favor of inequality? Reasonably intelligent people aren't in favor of inequality. And you're reasonably intelligent, aren't you? Of course you are, so you need to be in favor of equality!"

An thus we reach the point where we have reasonably intelligent people, including Supreme Court Justices, who think redefining terms so people can obtain special rights for themselves is the same as expanding freedoms and all things being equal.

Pretending that words can mean whatever we want them to mean in the name of a mythical idea of "progress," or worse, because you need to redefine them to get what you want, is both selfish and irresponsible

What's being rallied against in this case is privilege, previously untouched. It's time to get over it.
That doesn't even make sense. No privilege is being rallied against.

To allow two people of the same sex to marry has absolutely no affect on any of our lives.
It's already having profound domino effects. There are already birth certificates in some states which no longer list the mother and the father, but rather show Parent 1 and Parent 2. That's fine, I suppose, if Parent 1 and 2 are lesbians, but it's a serious problem for male and female parents who want to be listed as "Father" and "Mother" on the certificate. But they don't have that option. Ironically, as states and business adapt to same-sex marriage, many are doing away with any domestic partnership-type arrangements that came before, forcing couples who might not otherwise want to marry to get with the program. Domestic partnerships are extremely rare for non-gay couples. Some of these gay couples are finding this extremely uncomfortable, especially those on the radical end of the spectrum who still find the institution of marriage repellent. Others want to maintain their domestic partnerships because getting married would effectively “out” them to their communities, something many don't want to have happen. SO it maay not be affecting you directly, but I think you're playing a little fast and loose with "any of our lives."
 

greasytshirt

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Mechanic
There's no way I'm reading all of that. Condense it into three sentences.

That doesn't even make sense. No privilege is being rallied against.

I wrote that poorly.

Those who are butthurt that a privilege that they have taken for granted forever has been extended to an unpopular few really need to get over it. It affects their lives in no way, except in their heads.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
I think turtle is just arguing for sport in this case. He often seems to enjoy arguing either side of the discussion. :flykite:
While I am generally capable of debating either side of an issue, the issue of same-sex marriage is not one in which I would choose to take the position in favor the redefining of a term in order to get what you want simply because you want it really, really bad and therefore think you should have it. The same holds true for those who want to redefine a fetus to be something is it not for the same reasons.
 

Turtle

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The meaning of words has been apt to change ever since people began using words. The word 'gay' didn't mean homosexual when it referred to "The Gay 90's"...
It's called an Etymological Fallacy when someone insists that the meaning of a word way back when should be the meaning of the word today, and when people say exactly what you said - that because the meanings or words change over time that there is nothing wrong with the forced change of meaning. I'm sure you argument would change if it became legislated that the meaning of "fetus" is now "baby" or "human being" or "child," since babies, human beings and childs all have innate individual personhood rights that fetuses do not have.

The meanings of words change over time, and do so organically, not by force. Any time you force something on someone they don't want, there are always negative consequences to that action. Always. People resent what is forced upon them and will react to that resentment in one way or another.
 

greasytshirt

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The meanings of words change over time, and do so organically, not by force. Any time you force something on someone they don't want, there are always negative consequences to that action. Always. People resent what is forced upon them and will react to that resentment in one way or another.

Luckily for heterosexual couples, nothing has been forced upon them that will affect their lives in any meaningful fashion.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
There's no way I'm reading all of that. Condense it into three sentences.



I wrote that poorly.

Those who are butthurt that a privilege that they have taken for granted forever has been extended to an unpopular few really need to get over it. It affects their lives in no way, except in their heads.
Remain ignorant. I don't care.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Those poor, poor souls. May God grant them serenity in their time of minor annoyance.
Let's erase the terms mother and father from birth certificates. Can you see how absurd that is? This, in part, is why ordinary Americans hold the homosexual community in contempt. If they want to destroy themselves with deviancy, fine. Leave the rest of us alone.
 
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Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
The damage done to our society by these PC accommodations to the tiny minority in our society who are sexually confused will be seen in the values of our next generation. Trying to represent them as normal is a denial of reality. The perfect example is Bruce Jenner; he is not normal, he's mentally ill yet the media try to portray him as not only an example of the new normal but also "courageous". Lewis Carroll (Alice in Wonderland) wouldn't believe what's being done in American society today.

Even the current generation of college age isn't immune to the liberal version of the new truth.
Many of you may have already seen this article; it not only provides a good chuckle, but is also another source of embarrassment for those of use who are alums of the University of TN and/or have children currently enrolled there. This letter was recently published by the University's Office for Diversity and Inclusion titled Inclusive Practice: Pronoun Usage. It has since been removed from the UTK website after the barrage of national ridicule and extensive criticism by state and federal lawmakers.(Bold emphasis mine)
"The letter, authored by Donna Braquet, Director of the Pride Center, instructs students to no longer "assume someone’s gender by their appearance, nor by what is listed on a roster or in student information systems."...
The letter instructs a person when introducing themselves outside of the classroom to politely ask. “Oh, nice to meet you, [insert name]. What pronouns should I use?” saying that it is a "perfectly fine" question to ask.

An easy-to-read chart was provided urging the campus to use "ze" instead of "he" or "she" saying "these may sound a little funny at first, but only because they are new. The she and he pronouns would sound strange too if we had been taught ze when growing up."

Scottie Hughes - You Won't Believe What the PC Police Want You to Be Called at One University in the South

The letter used to be here:
http://diversity.utk.edu/2015/08/pronouns/
Here's a prime example of not just language evolution, but language reinvention run amok. How long will it be before our kids are being taught this new language in kindergarten and elementary school by the politically correct teachers being created by the radical leftists in our colleges and universities? UTK is once again the butt of jokes, but this time it's because of the sheer incompetence of its administration and their ridiculous "suggested" policies.
 
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usafk9

Veteran Expediter
My mostly adolescent brain loves that 'butthurt' was injected into the conversation.

In some seriousness, I'm wondering if blacks and Puerto Ricans were equally "whiny" about their plight. Or those damned women, pissing and moaning about wanting to vote....
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
The state of not having a special right is generally not considered to be a plight, so I'm not sure how comparing wanting a civil right to wanting a special right is applicable in such a discussion.
 

skyraider

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US Navy
The damage done to our society by these PC accommodations to the tiny minority in our society who are sexually confused will be seen in the values of our next generation. Trying to represent them as normal is a denial of reality. The perfect example is Bruce Jenner; he is not normal, he's mentally ill yet the media try to portray him as not only an example of the new normal but also "courageous". Lewis Carroll (Alice in Wonderland) wouldn't believe what's being done in American society today.

Even the current generation of college age isn't immune to the liberal version of the new truth.
Many of you may have already seen this article; it not only provides a good chuckle, but is also another source of embarrassment for those of use who are alums of the University of TN and/or have children currently enrolled there. This letter was recently published by the University's Office for Diversity and Inclusion titled Inclusive Practice: Pronoun Usage. It has since been removed from the UTK website after the barrage of national ridicule and extensive criticism by state and federal lawmakers.(Bold emphasis mine)

Here's a prime example of not just language evolution, but language reinvention run amok. How long will it be before our kids are being taught this new language in kindergarten and elementary school by the politically correct teachers being created by the radical leftists in our colleges and universities? UTK is once again the butt of jokes, but this time it's because of the sheer incompetence of its administration and their ridiculous "suggested" policies.
Yep , and folks pay a lot of money to go there to learn that gooooooooood stuff,,,,amazing what people will pay .
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
It has since been removed from the UTK website after the barrage of national ridicule and extensive criticism by state and federal lawmakers.
Not only that, but they published a complete walk-back, saying that the letter was published in the quarterly e-newsletter (without mentioning the fact that it also has its own prominent page on the university web site). The problem is, it's been removed from the previously-published e-newsletter, as well.

The Office for Diversity and Inclusion’s quarterly e-newsletter, Diversity and Excellence, is an educational effort. The Inclusive Practice section of the e-newsletter is a standard feature. This quarter we chose to raise awareness about inclusive language, specifically gender-neutral pronouns. The information provided in our e-newsletter was offered as a resource—not as a policy or mandate—to our campus community on inclusive practices.
News | Office for Diversity and Inclusion | The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
 

greasytshirt

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Mechanic
This, in part, is why ordinary Americans hold the homosexual community in contempt.

Ordinary Americans ought to hold the ultra-PC crowd in contempt, a group I certainly disagree with most of the time.
If they want to destroy themselves with deviancy, fine. Leave the rest of us alone.

They aren't destroying anything. If the ultra-conservative crowd is capable of letting this rest, the chaos will die down. It's up to people like you: Can you let this rest long enough for everyone to chill out?
 
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Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
The reason most ordinary Americans hold the "ultra-PC crowd in contempt" is that this group doesn't just want society to tolerate their deviant lifestyles - they demand that everyone embrace it and accept it as normal, and toward that end they rub their deviancy in our faces. Once again, Bruce Jenner's tranny coming out campaign - complete with magazine covers, TV interviews and a reality show - is a shining example of the "anything goes and you dam well better like it" attitude of the PC nazis, especially those in the media. They know if these perversions are repeatedly portrayed on TV and in movies as normal, the younger generations watching it will eventually accept it as such. As if that's not enough, it's being worked into our educational systems at all levels. Many everyday Americans have had enough of this depravity being forced upon them, and are declaring their opposition to this PC nonsense; they're not going sit idly by and be steamrolled by a noisy minority.
 
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