Another disgraced Republican hypocrite

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The federal budget doesn't work like people think it does, mainly because of the unfunded entitlements and debt loads based on outstanding treasuries (whats due).

It is more or less an ongoing cluster****.

The projections they spoke about came before the budget was signed but just going to congress to be passed by congress. Clinton was using the original OMB and CBO numbers from what he submitted not the reconciliation of the budget. Furthermore it counted on the continue growth throughout the fiscal year, which we didn't see because of the start of the tech sector. This alone put any projected surpluses out of the picture entirely and what in essence was exactly what Obama uses to blame for his inept administration inheriting the problems from the previous administration. Bush in fact inherited a lot of budget issues from Clinton but the Republican congress didn't help at all, they were as inept as Obama is today.
 

Rhodes101

Not a Member
Bush in fact inherited a lot of budget issues from Clinton
This may very well be the single most idiotic statement I have read since Mad Magazine! Care to elaborate and compare the budget issues between what Georgie inherited and what he turned over to Obama?
Before you go saying Obama has increased it, we all know about the stimulus money that saved our economy. He still has 6 years to fix the debt, alot of which will be helped more and more as the economy continues to improve, and the tax cuts given to the top 10% expire.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Re: Another disgraced koolaide drinker

This may very well be the single most idiotic statement I have read since Mad Magazine! Care to elaborate and compare the budget issues between what Georgie inherited and what he turned over to Obama?

No, I won't.

You're smart, why don't you read what was going on then.

Who said Clinton was to blame for all of it? Congress had more to do with the problems but Clinton took the credit for their work. But you made the point that our first black president walks on water, was the greatest thing that came along since sliced bread, not me.

Before you go saying Obama has increased it, we all know about the stimulus money that saved our economy.
Apparently you are clueless on how the economy works, why he is using antiquated theories that have failed and the fact that you can't spend your way out of a recession or depression.

I haven't seen any job growth, underemployment numbers are being skewed and then revised to make it all look good, our creditors have laughed at our Secretary of the Treasury when he went to China and tried to say we were solvent and again I will mention there is no job growth.

Even the bullsh*t with GM making a profit goes right back to the administration's need to cover up the truth. GM obfuscated paying the actual interest on the loads which had to have Obama's approval on one level or another, the CBO has come out and said we will not recoup at least $48 BILLION from Chrysler and GM and overall we got screwed.

But just the employment number issue, no one can actually tell us how many are actually unemployed because of how the numbers are compiled, but you already know this.

To explain it in simple terms, the president said something like this 'for those who are unemployed, don't expect to work like you did in the past. Those jobs are gone and won't return' hence for those who are unemployed, you're ****ed.

Saved, not a chance. The money spent is money lost. The money spent has done more damage than people realize.

He still has 6 years to fix the debt, alot of which will be helped more and more as the economy continues to improve, and the tax cuts given to the top 10% expire.

Well again you are clueless about it, 6 years? Meaning you think he will last? I am doubting that he will finish out his term without being impeached.

But I digress

See maybe you never had a civics class or a class on how the Federal budget works, but you think they just went to the bank and filled out an app, it doesn't work that way. In this case they haphazardly went down the happy trail feeding money to all these people and didn't borrow with an end date in sight. Obama and Bush (which on the domestic economic front are the same person but different names) didn't say to the American people "this will be paid for by 2020" but instead said "we have to do this or else ... ". The real issue is we didn't need it, what we needed was confidence returned in congress and in the financial sector which actually means Dodd, Frank and a lot of others get censured and removed off the committees they served on which actually was the root of all these problems in the first place - Congress.

... which will be helped more and more as the economy continues to improve ...

You serious?

Where's the improvements?

You did miss the part of Europe and how they are dragging us down with their propping up of a false currency, the Euro.

You must of missed the issue that is being screamed about in the papers of over there the $50 TRILLION in unsecured debt that came out of their derivative markets that they are trying to get a hold of before the place implodes.

You do know that China and Russia both see that if the Euro collapses, so will their investments evaporate. They are tightening up their credit line to everyone and seem to like the idea of investing here but unsure about our president (remember they laughed at Gietner)

As of today, the news that has everyone nervous is Spain bailed out their largest bank to the tune of €500M but there is rumor that it may not be enough, there may be a domino collapse within the Spanish banking system if they don't get a grip on it quick. By the way Obama thinks we need to have a Spanish style economy, all with the high debt load and 40% of the public paying the taxes.

Because of this and the other issues within the EU, their markets lost about 20%, I expect the Dow to follow suit Monday.

Also the UK has openly admitted to the possibility of a serious issue in the next 14 months - inflation. Not because of the US, but rather because of the Euro tanking. Even though they were the smart country and didn't jump on board, they are still tied to the Euro.

But now the messiah, yours that is, has a bigger problem, large multinationals, GE, Cat, Pfizer, et cetera all have holdings in europe which also means like Ford, GM and Fiat, a ton of their money is sitting over there in Euros because of the laws and so on. The Euro has dropped against the dollar and hence lost money for these multinationals. Maybe you never worked for one but I have and my experience is they will shed jobs where it is more expensive to operate, which means if Obama continues on his path of taxes and so on, GE, Cat, Pfizer, et cetera may close up shop and move out of the country. Cat for example derives a lot of their revenue (a little more than 60%) from outside the country, with a majority of their employees also outside the country.

So this leaves us back to Obama, who has put us into debt big time. See the upper 10% don't mean a thing unless you count that they provide a lot of jobs and because these taxes should have been put in place without an sunset (the sunset was a compromise between the parties if I remember right), that means that the overall tax revenue that derived in the post sunset period will be a lot less than if it was left alone. AND what appears to be a booming time right now with all this 'growth', is just trying to get business done before all the new taxes and the changes in the tax code happen January 1st, 2011.

If these followers of Obama want to actually do some good, demand lowering taxes, stop with the class warfare crap and start praying that Europe doesn't drag us into the toilet.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
Jobs?

They are not even filling the empty jobs, it is a big mess thanks to this debt package.

Construction jobs were a boom for the people who already employed. The Road companies hired the cheapest labor as temp workers but it is lauded as a big employment boom

The number is $38 to $48 billion, not $10. GM didn't pay back the loan, they paid back a portion of it with money they borrowed another time. The kicker is a couple weeks ago they were back in Washington asking for grants and loans to retool. One guy over at GM said some of that money will go to Mexico and China for their plants.

Also a billion dollars to save 5000 jobs? I pretty sure that's what the numbers work out to. I would say at that price, hand each worker $200,000 tax free and let them loose with it - it would have produced a lot better results.

You do know that not one GM plant, building or piece of property in my state is actually paying taxes?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Re: Another disgraced Obmambot

Yea a lot of auto related companies are having a great time, so are the mining related companies but the other 80% of the economy isn't doing as well. Tech sector, the financial sector, some Manufacturing all seem to still be hurting. People are not being laid off but their jobs eliminated - a bit of a difference.

In the auto companies, primary GM and Fiat, there is no job growth, there isn't even job creation but shifting of workers between plants based on some Union contract. They make it out as the jobs are created but they are not, just shifted.

You got to ask yourself this, if there is a claim to having 10% unemployment, what are the numbers of true unemployed and underemployment?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
and you would rather believe those numbers? Because it suits your belief NOT because of any accuracy or in accuracy, how disappointing...guess it easier to believe in America the poor right now...


Those are the governments figures, not mine. That chart does reflect what I see. It reflects what I hear from family members. It reflects what I hear from friends. Even the auto workers I know that are back to work have little doubt that their present work is very shaky. They don't expect to be working by the end of next year. America poor? No. In deep trouble, yes. Could we become poor? Yes. Is this administration or congress doing anything that will lead to LONG TERM stability? Not in my opinion. Without stability first you cannot have growth.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Re: Another??

OVM,
The problems is this;

People are too ****ing stupid to understand that government doesn't create jobs. The administration or congress can't provide work for people that is meaningful and sustainable - only a free market can.

With that said, our business climate in this country sucks. It's worst on the local levels, like in Michigan where they give away the baby for baby food.

Where most other countries actually have some sort of deals that can be made with taxes, property and so on, we don't.

Instead we have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, we have a tax climate that punishes success and we have a system that favors unions in both courts and in labor laws.

Think of is this way.

Your sprinter needs new injectors. You got two shops to choose from, one uses genuen German made Bosch injectors while the other one uses homemade injectors. Both work, both last but the homemade ones are 20% more. Then you ask about the labor, the one that uses the German made Bosch injectors has a flat labor cost of $50 an hour and tells you 4 hours worth the work will only be charged but the other one with the homemade injects tells you $75 an hour, 8 hours worth of work will be needed and you are to clean up the shop after the work is done.

Who you going to choose?

Just interchange this the first shop with any country with less taxes and the one with homemade injectors with the US.

If we just do two simple things we would get out of this mess.

1 - stop spending on stupid stuff. Which means start eliminating Federal Jobs, stop playing the money shuffle and stop trying to get government to bail out everyone.

2 - keep taxes low. Even if we can't have the Fair Tax, then just making the Bush tax code terminate will remove a lot of the ambiguity that everyone is facing. It is not knowing what the administration is thinking is what worries a lot of people.

When China has more to offer to a business than we do, we are in serious trouble but again people are too ****ing stupid to understand even the simplest things like basic economics.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Sorry Joe, congrats.

Now if I can only get OVM to stop posting for a few weeks I will widen the gap :D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
government numbers also say unemployment at 9.7% but those ones you chose to believe and take the other ones...which by the way are just over 2% better then 3 months ago when it was a tad over 17%....

as I said we need to get our manufacturing back some how...but how....many places around the world have a lot lower standard of living and can produce things cheaper then we can...it is a shrinking world....we do not hold a monopoly any more...


The U1 numbers do not reflect those who are under employed, on welfare, etc. They only reflect those who are on unemployment right now. Not the most accurate gauge as to what is going on. I prefer the U6 because it takes more people into account.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Maybe in hindsight presidency would have been a better choice than CIC. Compared to Georgie though he was brilliant at keeping our soldiers alive and out of harms way. As far as his accomplishments this list is far better than anything that I could create.

The Clinton Presidency: A Historic Era of Progress and Prosperity....

You should have listed the source for this list - the Clintons themselves:
The Clinton Presidency: Key Accomplishments



Most of these claims are either overstated or just downright malarky. No sense rehashing them all, but here's a few examples:
  • The diversity of Clinton's cabinet was almost identical to Bush's. Diversity in the Cabinet - Parableman
  • The so-called budget surplus was fictional and projected as earlier explained by Greg
  • Lowest Govt Spending - assuming that's true, could the Republican congress and the contract with America have had anything to do with that?
  • Protecting millions of acres of American land from what - harvesting our natural resources?
  • Smallest welfare rolls - do we remember who was actually responsible for welfare reform? (Hint - it wasn't the Slick One)
  • Last but not least - "Highest Home Ownership in American History". This is the biggest joke of all. By changing the regulations and forcing Fannie, Freddie, and other banks to provide mortgages to people who couldn't afford them resulted in the collapse of the sub-prime mortgage industry that gave us the worst recession since the Great Depression
On the flip side, here's some more highlights of the Clinton presidency:
The Clintongate Administration

One last thought regarding the comment about Clinton "keeping our soldiers alive and out of harm's way": it's not only ridiculous, but also insulting to our military. Osama Bin Ladin himself said that Clinton's lack of response to the attacks on American embassies and the Cole emboldened Al Qaeda to go forward with bigger plans that led to 9/11. Thanks to Bill Clinton's cowardice we are now in a war with Islamic radicals which has no end in sight. To paraphrase George Will, Bill Clinton wasn't the worst president the country's ever had, but he was the worst man to have ever been president.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Let us not forget that Bill Clinton was 100% aware of the WMDs that Iraq had and did little more than throw some cruise missiles at them. Like you can do ANYTHING without troops on the ground. Amazing how Slick Willies cheerleaders often forget that.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well the best one of all is Bill Clinton caused us to invade Iraq - Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Slick Willies speech on his attack on Iraq's WMD program. It failed and he did NOT follow up. A true military fool. Much like Obama is. Bill Clinton knew of the problem, made a weak attempt to fix it, it failed, he cut and run. Another president that left the job unfinished. Nothing new. Admire that!!

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike

[/FONT] CLINTON: Good evening.


Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.



Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.



Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.



I want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish.
Six weeks ago, Saddam Hussein announced that he would no longer cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors called UNSCOM. They are highly professional experts from dozens of countries. Their job is to oversee the elimination of Iraq's capability to retain, create and use weapons of mass destruction, and to verify that Iraq does not attempt to rebuild that capability.
The inspectors undertook this mission first 7.5 years ago at the end of the Gulf War when Iraq agreed to declare and destroy its arsenal as a condition of the ceasefire.



The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.



The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again.



The United States has patiently worked to preserve UNSCOM as Iraq has sought to avoid its obligation to cooperate with the inspectors. On occasion, we've had to threaten military force, and Saddam has backed down.


Faced with Saddam's latest act of defiance in late October, we built intensive diplomatic pressure on Iraq backed by overwhelming military force in the region. The UN Security Council voted 15 to zero to condemn Saddam's actions and to demand that he immediately come into compliance.



Eight Arab nations -- Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman -- warned that Iraq alone would bear responsibility for the consequences of defying the UN.



When Saddam still failed to comply, we prepared to act militarily. It was only then at the last possible moment that Iraq backed down. It pledged to the UN that it had made, and I quote, a clear and unconditional decision to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors.
I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate.



I made it very clear at that time what unconditional cooperation meant, based on existing UN resolutions and Iraq's own commitments. And along with Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully, we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning.



Now over the past three weeks, the UN weapons inspectors have carried out their plan for testing Iraq's cooperation. The testing period ended this weekend, and last night, UNSCOM's chairman, Richard Butler, reported the results to UN Secretary-General Annan.
The conclusions are stark, sobering and profoundly disturbing.



In four out of the five categories set forth, Iraq has failed to cooperate. Indeed, it actually has placed new restrictions on the inspectors. Here are some of the particulars.



Iraq repeatedly blocked UNSCOM from inspecting suspect sites. For example, it shut off access to the headquarters of its ruling party and said it will deny access to the party's other offices, even though UN resolutions make no exception for them and UNSCOM has inspected them in the past.



Iraq repeatedly restricted UNSCOM's ability to obtain necessary evidence. For example, Iraq obstructed UNSCOM's effort to photograph bombs related to its chemical weapons program.
It tried to stop an UNSCOM biological weapons team from videotaping a site and photocopying documents and prevented Iraqi personnel from answering UNSCOM's questions.



Prior to the inspection of another site, Iraq actually emptied out the building, removing not just documents but even the furniture and the equipment.



Iraq has failed to turn over virtually all the documents requested by the inspectors. Indeed, we know that Iraq ordered the destruction of weapons-related documents in anticipation of an UNSCOM inspection.



So Iraq has abused its final chance.
As the UNSCOM reports concludes, and again I quote, "Iraq's conduct ensured that no progress was able to be made in the fields of disarmament.



"In light of this experience, and in the absence of full cooperation by Iraq, it must regrettably be recorded again that the commission is not able to conduct the work mandated to it by the Security Council with respect to Iraq's prohibited weapons program."



In short, the inspectors are saying that even if they could stay in Iraq, their work would be a sham.



Saddam's deception has defeated their effectiveness. Instead of the inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors.
This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere. The international community gave Saddam one last chance to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors. Saddam has failed to seize the chance.



And so we had to act and act now.



Let me explain why.



First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.



Second, if Saddam can crippled the weapons inspection system and get away with it, he would conclude that the international community -- led by the United States -- has simply lost its will. He will surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction, and someday -- make no mistake -- he will use it again as he has in the past.



Third, in halting our air strikes in November, I gave Saddam a chance, not a license. If we turn our backs on his defiance, the credibility of U.S. power as a check against Saddam will be destroyed. We will not only have allowed Saddam to shatter the inspection system that controls his weapons of mass destruction program; we also will have fatally undercut the fear of force that stops Saddam from acting to gain domination in the region.



That is why, on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team -- including the vice president, the secretary of defense, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the secretary of state and the national security adviser -- I have ordered a strong, sustained series of air strikes against Iraq.



They are designed to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction, and to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbors.



At the same time, we are delivering a powerful message to Saddam. If you act recklessly, you will pay a heavy price. We acted today because, in the judgment of my military advisers, a swift response would provide the most surprise and the least opportunity for Saddam to prepare.



If we had delayed for even a matter of days from Chairman Butler's report, we would have given Saddam more time to disperse his forces and protect his weapons.



Also, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins this weekend. For us to initiate military action during Ramadan would be profoundly offensive to the Muslim world and, therefore, would damage our relations with Arab countries and the progress we have made in the Middle East.



That is something we wanted very much to avoid without giving Iraq's a month's head start to prepare for potential action against it.



Finally, our allies, including Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain, concurred that now is the time to strike. I hope Saddam will come into cooperation with the inspection system now and comply with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions. But we have to be prepared that he will not, and we must deal with the very real danger he poses.



So we will pursue a long-term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and work toward the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people.
First, we must be prepared to use force again if Saddam takes threatening actions, such as trying to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction or their delivery systems, threatening his neighbors, challenging allied aircraft over Iraq or moving against his own Kurdish citizens.
The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War.



Second, so long as Iraq remains out of compliance, we will work with the international community to maintain and enforce economic sanctions. Sanctions have cost Saddam more than $120 billion -- resources that would have been used to rebuild his military. The sanctions system allows Iraq to sell oil for food, for medicine, for other humanitarian supplies for the Iraqi people.
We have no quarrel with them. But without the sanctions, we would see the oil-for-food program become oil-for-tanks, resulting in a greater threat to Iraq's neighbors and less food for its people.
The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.



The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.



The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.



Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion.



We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully.



Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.



And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.



Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.



Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down.



But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.



In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.



Tonight, the United States is doing just that. May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]QUICK VOTE[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Was Saddam Hussein trying to take advantage of the political turmoil in the U.S.? [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Yes
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]VIDEO[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Clinton says attack on Iraq averted potential Iraqi aggression (12-17-98) Real: 28K | 56K, Windows Media: 28K | 56K [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]For Clinton, a long day of political juggling (12-17-98) Real: 28K | 56K, Windows Media: 28K | 56K [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Larry King Live highlight: Vice President Al Gore on the military air strike on Iraq (12-17-98) Real: 28K | 56K, Windows Media: 28K | 56K [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Clinton statement on attack against Iraq (12-16-98) Windows Media: 28K | 56K [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TRANSCRIPTS[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Clinton defends U.S. attack on Iraq (12-17-98)

President Clinton explains Iraq strike (12-16-98)

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]POLL[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] U.S. public endorses Clinton's actions on Iraq (12-17-98)

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]RELATED STORIES[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Blasts over Baghdad during second night of attack (12-17-98)
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House passes resolution in support of U.S. troops (12-17-98)

Impeachment and Iraq fill the president's time (12-17-98)

In-depth: Strike on Iraq
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