Ammunition control part 2

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
There's more to that story, and it's got nothing to do with ammunition control. It has to do with the fact that Doe Run has been pumping out lead dust with abandon for decades. Half the town is sick from lead poisoning. Trucks leaving the plant have an average 3 pounds of lead dust on them. The life expectancy in the counties surrounding Herculaneum is nearly 20 years less than the national population average. The reason they were left alone for so long is that the government was its biggest customer. The first lawsuit was in 1994 and that's when the EPA finally got on them and told them to clean up their act. The most recent lawsuit from 2005 resulted in a $320 million judgement against them. There have been dozens of other lawsuits that Doe Run has either lost or settled out of court. For 20 years Doe Run had been quietly buying up 165 houses near the plant and then leasing them back out, but with the requirement that no one under the age of 18 could live in those houses. You can't grow food in your back yard because the tomatoes and cucumbers and whatever else has too much lead inside them to be edible.

I've delivered there twice, and both times I had to wear a particulate filter mask. I felt like I should have been in a hazmat suit.

The funny thing is, and this is typical government mentality, the plant pays nearly $1 million a year in property taxes... City Administrator Jim Kasten said he is worried about potential job losses and the crushing financial blow {crushing, I tell you}, especially to the school district, that the company's departure would cause. "The loss of that income will force a heavier burden on our taxpayers."

Doe Run uses about half the water the city contracts to buy. Kasten estimated that when smelting stops, the average household's water bill would increase by $30 to $40 a month. "If Doe Run's not buying it, someone's got to," Kasten said.

The city's not gonna tighten its belt and cut back at all. It's up to the taxpayers to make up the difference, dammit.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
amazing when you get the whole story...This soapbox is just like Fox News.....full of sound bites....little real news....
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
amazing when you get the whole story...This soapbox is just like Fox News.....full of sound bites....little real news....
If one pays attention to the NEWS shows at Fox News, one will get the NEWS; their OPINION shows offer opinions. Unless I've missed something, the Soapbox was created for us to offer our OPINIONS and we don't have to be objective or "fair & balanced". However,being informed and providing sources goes a long way towards having a meaningful discussion.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
If one pays attention to the NEWS shows at Fox News, one will get the NEWS; their OPINION shows offer opinions. Unless I've missed something, the Soapbox was created for us to offer our OPINIONS and we don't have to be objective or "fair & balanced". However,being informed and providing sources goes a long way towards having a meaningful discussion.

Exactly...OPINION and that was mine.....right or wrong it was opinion....nothing more, nothing less....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If one pays attention to the NEWS shows at Fox News, one will get the NEWS;
Yeah, but you have to pay really close attention, because even on the NEWS shows the news is given interspersed with opinion, or factually crafted (sometimes fictionally crafted) to lead your opinion. They tend to be very selective on which facts they choose to report. Rarely do they give a news story with any political connection in an unimpassioned, unbiased manner. More often than not, there's a dig in there on what you're supposed to think about the story or what something is supposed to mean. You have to watch carefully, instead of just sitting back and taking it all in.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
However,being informed and providing sources goes a long way towards having a meaningful discussion.
Still trying to come with a few sources for that "going to war in Iraq was defending the Constitution" thing I see ...

Well, let us know if you ever come up with anything ... :rolleyes:
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
Yh'a, like reporting fictional Hurricane sandy, without reporting where HHARP was pointing @ the time. LoL Fox news as a reliable source of information.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
What a charming example of the respect for life: protecting people from the toxic effects of lead poisoning [which affects every single part of the body, and more severely for children than adults] is seen as 'ammunition control'. There is no safe level of exposure, and no way to eliminate the exposure short of removing the lead or the people from proximity to each other. Mining lead poisons the people who work with it, the people who live with them, and the people who just live in the area too. It is not an acceptable risk for people to take, given what we know about it now. It's too late for those already poisoned, but it has to stop: we can't allow people to be sickened and damaged and killed for the sake of profit any more. Ammunition will have to be made from something else, that doesn't kill people without a weapon in sight, because lead mining is deadly.
This is an example of why 'pro life' people are accused of hypocrisy: they care about the unborn fetus, but those already here? Not so much.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Lead mining in and of itself isn't all that deadly. It's found in ores containing copper, as well as silver and zinc. It's just big rocks. But it's the smelting using roasting and then coke-fired blast furnaces that is the problem. Doe Run is developing a wet electrochemical process that replaces blast furnace processes, and is already using the process in one of its Peru facilities.

Australia, China and the United States account for more than half of primary production of lead, and the Lead Belt of Southeast Missouri produces 70% of all the US primary supply of lead, and more than 50% of the zinc. Doe Run's recycling smelter in Boss, MO, which is the largest secondary smelter in the world, produces more than 150,000 metric tones of lead annually, most of it from used lead acid batteries. More than half the world's production of lead comes from recycled batteries and other sources.

You absolutely, positively do not need a primary smelter to produce lead bullets. Since the end of WWII, very few bullets, if any, have been made from the lead of primary smelters. The lead from primary smelters contains significant contaminants of arsenic, antimony, bismuth, zinc, copper, silver, and gold. Contaminated lead makes for incredibly bad ammunition. In order to get the lead to a state of purity that allows for accurate ammunition that won't just disintegrate upon leaving the barrel of a gun, if must be further processed using the Parkes Process, then the Betterton-Kroll Process, and then the Betts Process. Or, you could just skip all that and use lead produced safer, quicker and significantly cheaper from a secondary smelter using recycled lead.

Even with the closing of the primary smelter, Doe Run still operates four active mills in Missouri, where primary lead is produced from the three dozen mines they operate in Missouri. So just because there is no longer a primary smelter, it doesn't mean primary lead is no longer produced.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What a charming example of the respect for life: protecting people from the toxic effects of lead poisoning [which affects every single part of the body, and more severely for children than adults] is seen as 'ammunition control'. There is no safe level of exposure, and no way to eliminate the exposure short of removing the lead or the people from proximity to each other. Mining lead poisons the people who work with it, the people who live with them, and the people who just live in the area too. It is not an acceptable risk for people to take, given what we know about it now. It's too late for those already poisoned, but it has to stop: we can't allow people to be sickened and damaged and killed for the sake of profit any more. Ammunition will have to be made from something else, that doesn't kill people without a weapon in sight, because lead mining is deadly.
This is an example of why 'pro life' people are accused of hypocrisy: they care about the unborn fetus, but those already here? Not so much.

First off, lead free ammunition is already made and used. It is effective in some rifles, not in others. It works better on some game than others. It has it's place, but as of now, there is not a 100% replacement for lead core ammunition. Will there be in the future? Maybe. Will it be affordable? Likely not.

As to banning mining or manufacturing that is "toxic", be VERY careful about what you ask for. There are very few, if any, products that you use on a daily basis, including your food, that does NOT use toxic products in their production.

Can mining be cleaned up? Sure. Can manufacturing be cleaned up? Sure. Both are already far cleaner than they were 60 years ago and they will be better as time passes. Will they ever be totally safe? Not very likely. There are always trade off's in life. If you want a modern lifestyle there will always be toxic side affects in the production of the goods that people want.

If you were to give up every product that used toxic materials, was mined or had dirty production methods, you would likely be dead in less than a month. You would either freeze, die of thirst, die of starvation, etc etc.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yeah, but you have to pay really close attention, because even on the NEWS shows the news is given interspersed with opinion, or factually crafted (sometimes fictionally crafted) to lead your opinion. They tend to be very selective on which facts they choose to report. Rarely do they give a news story with any political connection in an unimpassioned, unbiased manner. More often than not, there's a dig in there on what you're supposed to think about the story or what something is supposed to mean. You have to watch carefully, instead of just sitting back and taking it all in.
The above could apply to any of the network or cable TV news shows. Special Report is about the only thing I regularly watch on Fox News Channel, and it offers a pretty good summary of the day's events from around the world. Of course this has to be supplemented with newspapers, websites and other sources to figure out what's really going on.

However, Fox News opinion shows almost all have a conservative slant so therefore must be attacked and vilified by the MSM and their liberal allies. In spite of that their ratings continue to lead the pack of cable news networks. Results speak for themselves.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The above could apply to any of the network or cable TV news shows.
Not only could it apply, it does apply to nearly all of the network and cable news shows. The only networks where the news shows stick to the Five Ws and refrain from interjecting opinion into the stories are the BBC and, ironically, Al Jazera.

However, Fox News opinion shows almost all have a conservative slant so therefore must be attacked and vilified by the MSM and their liberal allies. In spite of that their ratings continue to lead the pack of cable news networks. Results speak for themselves.
The results of the ratings speak for themselves, but that doesn't mean any conclusions beyond the ratings should be reached. The results of the rating speak to a lot of people watching the network. A lot of people watch Honey Boo Boo, too. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people, and high ratings doesn't mean something is unbiased or objective. High ratings simply means the choir is a large one. Special Report with Bret Baier, Fox Report with Shepard Smith, and America's Newsroom are all billed as pure news, yet all three are just slathered with opinion. It's gotten to the point where I wonder if most journalists even know how to report the news without interjecting their opinion, either directly or indirectly.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
First off, lead free ammunition is already made and used. It is effective in some rifles, not in others. It works better on some game than others. It has it's place, but as of now, there is not a 100% replacement for lead core ammunition. Will there be in the future? Maybe. Will it be affordable? Likely not.

What you consider 'affordable' and what the legislators consider 'affordable' probably aren't even in the same galaxy, so that's a moot point, even if it were relevant to begin with.

As to banning mining or manufacturing that is "toxic", be VERY careful about what you ask for. There are very few, if any, products that you use on a daily basis, including your food, that does NOT use toxic products in their production.

It's not about banning mining or manufacturing that is toxic - it's about banning what is deadly. Everything is a risk/benefit calculation, and the risks of lead poisoning outweigh the benefits.

Can mining be cleaned up? Sure. Can manufacturing be cleaned up? Sure. Both are already far cleaner than they were 60 years ago and they will be better as time passes. Will they ever be totally safe? Not very likely. There are always trade off's in life. If you want a modern lifestyle there will always be toxic side affects in the production of the goods that people want.

If you were to give up every product that used toxic materials, was mined or had dirty production methods, you would likely be dead in less than a month. You would either freeze, die of thirst, die of starvation, etc etc.

If you were to read what I wrote, you would stop making such ridiculous comments, because there was nothing about giving up "every" product. Just the ones that pose an unacceptably high risk of death to large numbers of people, many of whom really are innocent children.
If substitutes for lead bullets are unsatisfactory, then someone will just have to make a better substitute. This is America - you telling me we can't do it?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Like the ones aborted? That type of innocent children?
No, not like those type of children. Aborted fetuses aren't children. It's the un-aborted fetuses that are having the most problems with lead pollution.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If you were to read what I wrote, you would stop making such ridiculous comments, because there was nothing about giving up "every" product. Just the ones that pose an unacceptably high risk of death to large numbers of people, many of whom really are innocent children.
If substitutes for lead bullets are unsatisfactory, then someone will just have to make a better substitute. This is America - you telling me we can't do it?

There is risk with every product, even in America. There are ways to clean up lead production, just as steel production was cleaned up. Just a coal mining was cleaned up.

Lead has properties that few other metals have which make them ideal for bullets. As I stated, there are lead free bullets, they work in some rifles, not in others. That will likely never change. Just as some lead bullets work in some rifles and not in others. Every rifle is different. Even rifles that are exactly the same. One can take identical Remington 700 30.06 rifles. One will shoot a Hornady Custom 165 grain BTSP perfectly, the one next to will spray them all over the paper. The second one may very well shoot a Barnes Banded Solid.

The fact that each individual rifle likes a certain bullet is likely never going to change. There is absolutely no way to tell what bullet/powder combination any given rifle is going to like until you take it to the range and test them. Some rifles are picky about what they eat, some not.

There are FAR greater toxic dangers out there, spread over much wider areas than lead production to be concerned with. The point I was trying to make was that NOTHING we produce is without danger. That everyone is affected by our total environment There is risk with everything. That too will never change. Even "green' products are dangerous to the environment, sometimes more than the products they replaced.

The problems with lead production, not only for bullets, are well documented and are being worked on by people who know far more about it than we do. It will be solved. I am more concerned with what is going on with the lose of the honey bee. THAT has the potential for causing FAR greater harm and human deaths than lead production does.
 
Top