Al-qaeda's no.2 killed

[paullud]

That doesn't even make sense from a common sense perspective, and it's 180 degrees from both the experts and the reality. Hatred of the US is rising all over the world, not because they are jealous of us, but because of our hegemonic foreign policies.

World opinion of the US has gone down since the 911 attacks, and rapidly. 911 and other recent events is our "canary in the coal mine", a warning sign that our international reputation is bad and that we must move to correct it or face more incidents. That means working cooperatively with other countries, not against them. We must be seen as a friend and not an enemy or a threat. Yet today, anti-American sentiment, along with hatred of all things American, is increasing, not decreasing. A poll by the Pew Research Center indicates that the number of Europeans with a favorable image of the US has plummeted, even among the coalition of the willing. In Italy, only 34% view the US positively, compared to 70% in 2002. In Spain, only 14% have a favorable image. Even in Eastern Europe, support for the US has dropped from 80% to 50% in Poland.We are clearly moving in the wrong direction. We are expending a lot of time, money, and resources to make things worse, instead of better. If out friends are starting to dislike us so much, how do you think out enemies feel about us?

And every time we kill a Muslim, intentionally or not, it's a de facto recruiting pitch for new enemy membership. They may not be official card-carrying al Qaeda members, but they're there just the same. An Army Major at Ft Hood, an AWOL soldier plotting the same thing, a lone man with an SUV in New York, there are plenty of examples.

With the Muslim world in turmoil, and our own continuing foreign policies, terrorist organizations are likely to find more and more recruits for their organizations. At times their recruits are unknown to terrorist leaders and commanders, but present a threat to nations throughout the world especially the United States and European Union members. In the international terrorism arena, over the next five years, it’s believed that the number of state-sponsored terrorist organizations may decline, but privately sponsored terrorist groups and otherwise "lone wolf" terrorists will increase in number. That's according to the FBI and the CIA.

All it takes is one kid who's father or mother were killed in collateral damage to develop a lifelong vendetta against us, and if he's Muslim, it doesn't take much for it to become a jihad ordained by Allah. And those kids are adding up fast.

An increase in the number of people not viewing the US as the greatest country doesn't mean they all decided to become terrorists. How many of us here don't view the government favorably?

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[RLENT]

It's very tough to defeat an idea, especially one that's religious-based.

The only way to defeat an idea is .... with a better idea

 

[paullud]

ROTFLMAO ..... right ... that's why IED attacks have skyrocketed - they're just trying to fake us out:

Stars and Stripes: Effective IED attacks in Afghanistan soar

Pentagon Report Shows Huge Jump in IED Attacks in Afghanistan

You don't by chance have any documented evidence to back up your assertion above do you ?

An increase in IED attacks doesn't prove an increase in terrorists, looking at it from a military stand point it would show the groups are shrinking and becoming weaker so they are no longer attacking with fighters.

Right - just like when you pull in and fill up at a gas station far from home and go inside to pay, the clerk that takes your money "knows" all about you, and "who" you are, some local vegetable vendor in Pakistan knows who some guy is, who happens to pull up and hop out of a vehicle to buy tonight's dinner .... because all them Al-Qaeda dudes advertise on TV, and hand out business cards.

They aren't really out walking around, they become sheltered.

Pssst ... don't tell anyone .... but I heard the new No. 2 is slated to appear on a Pakistan TV gameshow next month ... and there's talk of a possible recurring role on a daytime soap .....

I guess you got this from your alternative sources.

I'd say to at least try thinking and using common sense, but I'm afraid I'd be wasting my breath .... and your time and effort.

I have a different view and base it off of firsthand accounts so that means I don't have common sense? Who are you getting the right information from?

Nope - you altered it - what I said what that the USG will, and has, repeatedly misrepresented and lied about about various operations and who ended up as collateral damage.

You said that when the news reports we killed suspected insurgents it means we killed innocent bystanders.

That is a documented fact.

Check it out if ya want - provided ya have enough nut to do so ..... or just go with the spoonfed pablum .... either way, it's your call: the blue pill ... or the red pill ....

I never said there was no collateral damage, it happens and is an unfortunate part of war.

.... unless they report actual, documented facts ......

I did edit it to include the word usually after I reread it but after you had quoted it. They have some facts usually mixed in with their BS.

Of course, we all know that the USG would never, ever lie to it's own citizens ..... and never misrepresent or make things up ...... because they have a long and unblemished history of being honest and forthright ....

Never said anything like that. I'm surprised you are able to post here, it seems you and Alex Jones should be to busy proving what members of the government brought down the towers.

Next .....


An "exception to the rule" eh ?

What do they call that .. "paullud's rule" ?

.... dude, you are seriously funny ....

Nope .... it's just merely an observation of human nature .... one that is easily observable right here on EO, in terms of what our resident duck murderer has said, in terms of what he would do, if any harm were to befall his kid - he'd make those responsible pay.

People tend not like having those they love croaked .... most particularly when it's by a bunch of foreign yahoo cowboys .... whose intrusion into their lands they view as tantamount to a religious crusade ....

Probably why Pakistan told us to go pound salt and get the **** out of their country recently .....

Your right Al Qaeda and the Taliban went in and slaughtered innocent people to get power and the people stood right up to them. The Muslim culture also doesn't allow you to buy off the family of a victim, you have it all figured out, we have the exact same cultures and values.

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[RLENT]

Ok, now I'm beginning to get the real picture .... another person with a death wish .....

I meant that we would need to rid the world of those types of Muslims, not all, just the ones on a jihad. It would mean going in and clearing out towns with a show of force never seen before on the ground and most likely end in a mushroom cloud.

The above is sheer and utter lunacy .... and immediately tells anyone who knows the very least bit about Islam, that the person proposing the above idea doesn't have a frickin' clue, nor any real understanding, about the religion.

So far we have been very, very lucky in terms of amount of "traction" our careless "collateral damage" has had as a recruitment tool for terrorists ..... it is not insignificant .... but it isn't anywhere near as bad as it could be.

If you want to put monster mudder tires or racing slicks on that vehicle, then by all means, go ahead and commit widespread, wholesale genocide against a (Muslim) civilian population (which, by the way, happens to be a crime against humanity, as laid out and detailed by the Geneva Conventions), by wantonly and carelessly acting in manner with callous disregard for innocent civilian life.

That - since it is the functional equivalent of throwing gasoline on a burning fire - should be pretty much sufficient to incite the entirety of the remaining Muslim populations anywhere in the world to be ready and willing to engage in permanent jihad against the US. And IMO, they would be largely justified in doing so.

And for the little chest-thumper wannabes, who seem to be suffering continual delusions of grandeur ..... let's recap some fairly simple and easy to understand numbers:

US population: roughly 300,000,000

Worldwide Muslim population: 1,500,000,000 (that includes one Muslim nation that is already a nuclear power)

Populations of a partial list of predominantly non-Muslim nations (two) which are not necessarily closely allied with the US, and who could be considered to have some interests which do not align with ours (ie. Russia and China): 1,600,000,000 (includes two nations which are nuclear powers)

For those that can't easily up the numbers, that's about a 10 to 1 ratio (3.1 billion vs. 300 million) ...... the "10" portion being made up of folks who might be starting to get just a little tired of our "you're gonna do it our way or else" attitude ..... and it doesn't include anywhere near all of the folks in that camp (other nations)

One really needs to think in terms of current global geo-political realities before starts shootin' off their mouth in terms of what we "ought to do" ....

We can't fight them in small groups and sit there waiting for them to engage us because time is our enemy because it allows them to continue to recruit.

Well, here's a thought ..... howzabout if mebbe we stop givin' 'em reasons that makes it easy for themselves to be recruited ?

Whatcha think ?

 

[paullud]

Ok, now I'm beginning to get the real picture .... another person with a death wish .....


The above is sheer and utter lunacy .... and immediately tells anyone who knows the very least bit about Islam, that the person proposing the above idea doesn't have a frickin' clue, nor any real understanding, about the religion.

So far we have been very, very lucky in terms of amount of "traction" our careless "collateral damage" has had as a recruitment tool for terrorists ..... it is not insignificant .... but it isn't anywhere near as bad as it could be.

If you want to put monster mudder tires or racing slicks on that vehicle, then by all means, go ahead and commit widespread, wholesale genocide against a (Muslim) civilian population (which, by the way, happens to be a crime against humanity, as laid out and detailed by the Geneva Conventions), by wantonly and carelessly acting in manner with callous disregard for innocent civilian life.

That - since it is the functional equivalent of throwing gasoline on a burning fire - should be pretty much sufficient to incite the entirety of the remaining Muslim populations anywhere in the world to be ready and willing to engage in permanent jihad against the US. And IMO, they would be largely justified in doing so.

And for the little chest-thumper wannabes, who seem to be suffering continual delusions of grandeur ..... let's recap some fairly simple and easy to understand numbers:

US population: roughly 300,000,000

Worldwide Muslim population: 1,500,000,000 (that includes one Muslim nation that is already a nuclear power)

Populations of a partial list of predominantly non-Muslim nations (two) which are not necessarily closely allied with the US, and who could be considered to have some interests which do not align with ours (ie. Russia and China): 1,600,000,000 (includes two nations which are nuclear powers)

For those that can't easily up the numbers, that's about a 10 to 1 ratio (3.1 billion vs. 300 million) ...... the "10" portion being made up of folks who might be starting to get just a little tired of our "you're gonna do it our way or else" attitude ..... and it doesn't include anywhere near all of the folks in that camp (other nations)

One really needs to think in terms of current global geo-political realities before starts shootin' off their mouth in terms of what we "ought to do" ....


Well, here's a thought ..... howzabout if mebbe we stop givin' 'em reasons that makes it easy for themselves to be recruited ?

Whatcha think ?

So basically your comment summed up says you don't read what people write, you read it the way you want so you can then disagree and pretend your more intelligent or better informed. I CLEARLY stated it was not all Muslims just those on the war path but just read what people write then make up whatever you want, maybe you can become one of those alternative sources for others.

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[RLENT]

That doesn't even make sense from a common sense perspective, and it's 180 degrees from both the experts and the reality .... and all the rest of it ....

Very well said ..... succinct and precisely to the point, encompassing the actuality of our present circumstances.

 

[RLENT]

So basically your comment summed up says you don't read what people write,

No .... I do read what others write ....

you read it the way you want so you can then disagree and pretend your more intelligent or better informed.

No .... I actually try and make an honest effort when reading to understand exactly what the other person is saying, and intends to mean .... part of that is asking myself: Is that what they actually meant ..... or am I inserting something of my own creation into what they said/meant ?

I'm not infallible by any means, and it's certainly not an entirely rare occurence when I either misunderstand or don't get what another's intent is.

Part of that may be due to the medium we are using, as opposed to talking to someone face to face .... and part of it is just my own shortcomings - I am not perfect. I do, however, try.

I CLEARLY stated it was not all Muslims just those on the war path

Yup - I got that - I really did ... it caught my eye when I read it ...... even if I failed to comment on or otherwise acknowledge it.

[Actually, looking back at what I wrote, I did acknowledge it in a roundabout manner - by highlighting, with bold, where you said "those types of Muslims, not all, just the ones on a jihad."

The problem logistically with your premise referenced above, as I understand it, is that it's essentially an impossible task ...... and the consequences of doing it is effectively an act of war on civilian population (when viewed through Muslim eyes minimally), and carries with it it's own repercussions within the larger Muslim world .... unless I'm somehow misunderstanding what it is that you are proposing.]

From my perspective, this differentiation on your part is very much to your credit - it would appear to indicate an absence of religious bigotry on your part - something that many would be hard pressed to honestly claim. And it indicates that you have the ability to recognize and identify the correct target.

I respect you for both.

but just read what people write then make up whatever you want,

Don't really have much interest in that I'm afraid .... I'd actually prefer to address exactly what people say/write .... although as I said previously, I'm not perfect at doing so.

maybe you can become one of those alternative sources for others.

Maybe ..... but it's not really an interest or purpose of mine.

I do however to look to encourage others to look at alternative sources of information and points of view other than they are generally accustomed to

 

[paullud]

Very well said ..... succinct and precisely to the point, encompassing the actuality of our present circumstances.

Doesn't mean it is right though.

http://sanford.duke.edu/centers/tct...merican_Terrorism_Since_911_An_Accounting.pdf

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[paullud]

No .... I do read what others write ....


No .... I actually try and make an honest effort when reading to understand exactly what the other person is saying, and intends to mean .... part of that is asking myself: Is that what they actually meant ..... or am I inserting something of my own creation into what they said/meant ?

I'm not infallible by any means, and it's certainly not an entirely rare occurence when I either misunderstand or don't get what another's intent is.

Part of that may be due to the medium we are using, as opposed to talking to someone face to face .... and part of it is just my own shortcomings - I am not perfect. I do, however, try.


Yup - I got that - I really did ... it caught my eye when I read it ...... even if I failed to comment on or otherwise acknowledge it.

From my perspective it is very much to your credit - it would appear to indicate an absence of religious bigotry on your part - something that many would be hard pressed to honestly claim. And it indicates that you have the ability to recognize and identify the correct target.

I respect you for both.


Don't really have much interest in that I'm afraid .... I'd actually prefer to address exactly what people say/write .... although as I said previously, I'm not perfect at doing so.


Maybe

I agree sometimes we read what is written with the tone that we think the author used which can drastically change the meaning of words. I think we both have formed our opinions based on the information we have and we have different views on how to handle this situation. I feel that we broke it so we need to fix it, I don't want to bail on them just to have it become a terrorist haven, I think that is where we screwed up before. After we stabilize it we need to bring our troops home and stay away from the entire area.

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[layoutshooter]

I did NOT say that we SHOULD fight this, I just asked if anyone really thought it could be won on 10 years.

I don't think we should even fight it my self.

We should pull back 100% of our troops from everywhere. We should defend our borders to the max, BOTH borders.

It is time to become isolationist again.

IF we did all that, NONE of what you see going on in the world will change. The attacks on the US would likely NOT stop.

It IS about an idea. They will win solely because THEY believe in the things they want and we don't.

 

[greg334]

We can start with the ones shooting at us.

I'm wondering have you ever been in an area where combat or a peace keeping mission is taking place?

It may not be all that easy to do.

Well I guess they will try to fight and likely die. The thing a lot of people don't understand is the Muslim terrorists are basically an Arab version of white supremacist military groups.

Well that's not really true. A white supremacist group is looking at things from a point of view of race not religion. AND many of those groups are not organized well enough in comparison. With many of the Muslim terrorist groups, you are dealing with highly educated strategist who have an end game in mind, not a group of people in South Dakota living off the land.

Muslims are everywhere so just because they are in Russia or China doesn't mean they aren't Muslims.

The point is they may not be Muslims, just have to support the cause.

No I am not saying we should just vaporize the entire country. I think they should go to a town if they experience a little resistance then handle it on foot, if they experience a higher amount of resistance then just hit the area with missiles, if it is determined on the field that the entire town is the issue then they should nuke it.

That will have to be the end result because many miss the point - we shouldn't be there in the first place.

When we show the people we are not going to leave them helpless and that we are going to fix the problem since we caused it we will have less of an issue because the recruiting won't be effective.

Well that's all great on paper but it just doesn't work. Unless you are them while being us, it may work but the problem is as I said before.

You also don't get how they are recruited and why we just can't shower them with money and stuff to make them feel better or useful. Like I said, it took generations to get a foot hold in their culture, it will take generations to tear down.

We are viewed as weak because we don't stay in the fight, that is why Osama called us a paper tiger. When we show up using force looking like we are ready and willing to wipe them off the face of the planet it will take the fight out of a lot of them.

We are viewed as weak for a lot of reasons, one is we get involved with other countries and leave when it gets too tough. We show up and then put restrictions on ourselves so not to break things and kill people. Another reason is simply that we don't need to be meddling in things that won't help us or use the excuse that it is a national security issue.

We have yet to fight a real war. Sorry for those who think that Iraq and others are real wars, they are wars and people get killed but compared to WW2, it is like the landing at Anzio. If we worry about 31 one people getting killed in one day, as a country, we have a serious internal problem because when we do fight a real war where we are attacked and we fight back, 31 people may be killed in a second and we will be in shock. The distaste for war from our Vietnam experience is what set us up for all of this.

Yes we are weak.

 

[tbubster]

The thing is if we like it or not we are the worlds policeman.Does not matter if the other countrys admit it or not or even like it.When ever anything major happens in the world the USA is always looked to for help.When we dont rush to help there is an out cry why is the US not helping.


The war on terrorism will be a long fight.To belive that a terrorist that is committed to jihad can be looked at as someone other then the enemy is just foolish.That is how Clinton felt also and he proved it by looking at the first world trade center bombing as a police mater instead of the act of war that it was.To win this war we must fight them using the same set of rules that they use.However we are a better people then that.How did the end of WW2 come about?We the USA dropped two bombs that showed the world we had enough and were willing to use what ever means it took to win.

You all can say what you want but as far as al-qaeda goes the biggest reason they want you or me dead is because we do not worship allah.We do not live our lifes acorrding to the way Mohammad says we have to.There are many other reasons why they want us dead but these are the biggest reasons.Also they wanted us dead and were committing acts of terrorism long befor the USA was looked at as the worlds police man.They want americans dead because they see the american culture as degenerate and immoral.

Their numbers will grow even if we pull all of our troops out of the middel east or any other country for that matter.The majority of muslims in the world are peace loving.However the muslims that are committed to jihad will always look at america and many other countrys as enemies of Islam.They will always beable to recruit more people into committing to jihad.With the execption of Israel up untill 9/11 no country had ever really stood up to terrorist on a international level.

How many of you really belive they hate us because of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Perhaps what I find to be the most shocking are the people screaming how wrong the war on terror is and how bad of a job we are doing,how we are turning the rest of the world against us.How people say there needs to be a better way of figureing out who is really against us so that less innocents are hurt or killed.Seem to be the ones also screaming about how The government cant do this or that because its against the constitution and violates a persons rights and freedoms.

 

[layoutshooter]

IF the United States went away. IF the Jewish state never existed, NOTHING would change. This fight would go on. Only an innocent child would believe otherwise. This is NOT about our policy or other country's. This IS about a evil group of people who believe that power is gained through terror and hate is right. Nothing has changed in a thousand years or so.