Aim for gun laws that will work

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
[/B]
Our differences aside.....

Is that last part even legal?.....
I can't imagine that it is. It was passed during the genesis of the modern militia movement in the 90s.
But lots of things aren't legal, yet are. Think of all the governmental departments that are wholly illegal, yet they exist.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Canuck-bashing is mere repartee, except where I point out how individual rights aren't as respected there, our how Canada is more socialistic than us, though we're catching up.
Yes, I consider what you said to be an attack, not just harmless 'nad busting among guys.

Then for that..I 'am sorry....

and you'd best check recent news buddy...the US has surpassed Canada for being socialistic...Obama's HC gave you that #1 place....

Only 1 part that sticks out and that is what we are discussing right here...Gun Control....after that everything is the same...
 
Last edited:

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Then for that..I' am sorry....
Thank you.
and you'd best check recent news buddy...the US has surpassed Canada for being socialistic...Obama's HC gave you that #1 place....
Isn't Canuck money worth more now, too? And isn't your health care system still a little more socialistic?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Thank you.

Isn't Canuck money worth more now, too? And isn't your health care system still a little more socialistic?

Our healthcare is run and was first started by the provinces NOT the Feds...each province is different...as like here, our Constitution forbids Federal involvement that interferes in provincial rights....People now have a choice, they can wait for care thru the system or pay out of their pocket if they have the money and go to a private source....all these stories about wait times is probably because people don't have the resources(cash/credit) or are just plain cheap and like to complain... YES Canada has its fair share of takers!! ie gimmie goobers....lol

YES our HC was very socialistic so to speak...NO options were available...but we were a young country and learned very quickly you just can't afford to care of everyone....
 
Last edited:

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Just curious, why is the part about a 'well regulated militia' always left out of these discussions?
Because that part, and the rest of the Amendment including "being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people," is unnecessary to quote or discuss in these discussions. But here is it in its entirety.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

A lot of people want to create their own definition of "well regulated" in conjunction with "militia" to make it become a uniformed armed service like the Army, or the National Guard, something rigid, structured, regulated and controlled by the government much like a gas regulator controls the flow of natural gas at your stove top burner. But that's not what "well regulated militia" means at all. It never has meant that.

I read just yesterday this article that says in order to prevent future school shootings, the author states, "As of an arbitrary date in the future, say, January 1, 2014, we simply enforce the Second Amendment."

What does he mean by that? It's about that subordinate clause having to do with the "well regulated militia," and more importantly it's about his own uneducated definition of what that phrase actually means. He states: "If every gun owner were required to be a member of a well-regulated militia, do you think we would have MORE gun owners or FEWER?"

He's a moron. Because every gun owner is already a member of a well-regulated militia.

In the colonial era and previously, and currently up until the government began regulating everything under the sun with regulations, it was common knowledge and commonly used that anything which was "well regulated" was simply "properly functioning". So a "well regulated watch" or a "well regulated double barreled shotgun" both would have the same meaning of "having been put into properly functioning condition". At the time of the writing of the Constitution, it was common for militiamen to bring their own firearms, with which they were already proficient. A miltia that is properly trained and equipped is a "well regulated miltia". (as a side note, I'm really glad the Constitution wasn't written today, because 200 years from now historians would be having to explain things like phishing and phat and ridonculous to people).

By definition, both at the time of the Founding Fathers as well as now, "militia" refers to citizen solderers as opposed to professional soldiers. Militia doesn't refer to a well-organized, well-disciplined government-controlled army. There's a reason we call the US Army the "US Army" and we call the Michigan Militia a "bunch of wackos", for example. The meaning from the Latin origins and in ancient Greece was a term used to apply mostly to part-time soldiers. But the sense of "citizen army" as being distinct from professional government soldiers was first used in 1696 by the French term milice. In the years between 1696 and 1776 the Colonies and France had a mostly cordial relationship, at times quite close (France was an ally who helped us defeat the British), and the Colonies were certainly influenced by the French in many ways, not the least of which was the use of "militia" to mean "citizen army" since that's what most of our revolutionary army was comprised of. The Second Amendment was adopted in 1791.

In the Federalist Paper #29, in which Hamilton is discussing the composition of the militia, he writes, "To oblige the great body of the yeomanry (the people at large), and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."

Note that in Hamilton's writings the "well-regulated" clearly refers to how well the militia functions and how well trained are the militia members. It does not
refer at all to the degree to which the government controls the militia or the members of the militia. In fact it state quite explicitly that the great body of citizens should not be obliged to to the government for such training.

In addition, going back as far as 1777, the Founding Fathers wrote specifically that the definition of militia be "the whole body of men declared by law amenable to military service, without enlistment, whether armed and drilled or not". That definition made its way into the Code of Laws of the United States of America (USC), which is the compilation and codification of the general and permanent federal laws of the United States.

The USC 10.311 which states:

TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists
of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age
and, except as provided in section 313 of title
32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have
made a declaration of intention to become, citi-
zens of the United States and of female citizens
of the United States who are commissioned of-
ficers of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are--

(1) the organized militia, which consists of
the National Guard and the Naval Militia;
and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists
of the members of the militia who are not
members of the National Guard or the Naval
Militia.

Which means, quite simply, that under USC 10.311, if you are a male between 17 and 45 and not in the armed forces, you're in a militia and it is your own responsibility to procure arms and training in case you are ever called up. Therefore, you are indisputably in a well-regulated militia, as its composition is codified under US federal law.

That law was written well before the Army, Air Force and Marines existed as separate entities, obviously, and the "National Guard" was the term used to refer to any and all federal land forces, and has since been amended in the USC to include the other branches of the Armed Forces.

The other part that's often left out of these discussions is "the right of the people", which has clear and unambiguous meaning, particularly "the people" part, which means the same thing in every place it's used in the Constitution. It means exactly what it says, "the people", everybody who is a citizen. It means that any citizen has the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. It means that any citizen has the right to print whatever they want, and further, "any citizen" doesn't only include the people who own printing presses, it includes everybody.

Furthermore, the right of the militia to keep and bears arms doesn't exist. It is only a right of the people to keep and bear arms. The right to keep and bears arms is not a right that is predicated on being a part of an organized governmental army. As well, the Bill of Rights, all of them, simply codified in writing those natural rights which pre-existed the forming of the nation, specifically so the government cannot take them away. To clear up any misunderstanding on just what a "well regulated miltia" is with regard to keeping and bearing arms, in 2008 the Supreme Court, finally, gave it's interpretation in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, where the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in any militia.

A well regulated militia isn't a qualifier or prerequisite for keeping and bearing arms, it's simply one of the ways the state can utilize the right of the people in ensuring a free state, if such a scenario should ever arise (which it has many times on many levels, like a hurricane strikes and people are looting, and regular citizens take up arms to protect both life and property of both themselves and their neighbors).

So, "well regulated militia" is left out of these discussions because there's no need to introduce the obvious, since "well regulated militia" literally means "proper functioning civilian soldiers", and if you own your own gun, and know how to use it, you're in, you're well regulated.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I wish I had half the patience of some folks. I don't. So here's my impatient, brief response.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

As the kids song goes, one of these things is not like the other. One of those things is absolute. It stands on it's own. It needs nothing else. It is complete. That's all there is and all there needs to be. One of those things can not stand on it's own. It depends on something else to complete it. You must have a citizenry free of infringement to have a militia. You needn't have a militia to have a citizenry free of infringement. I believe a study of grammar would substantiate the difference.

The bottom line is this. No inanimate object is good or bad. Rather than falsely blaming objects we should be focused on people who choose to be criminals. We should be focused on finding and stopping them and on punishing them after the fact.

Let the same standards be set against all objects, starting with the motor vehicles of Congress since motor vehicles cause drunk driving and the murder of innocents just as surely as guns cause murders.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It will be a revolution. Once the Constitution no longer exists there is no longer a United States. MILLIONS alive today have taken the same oath that I did. The one that says, "Protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, from all enemies, both foreign and domestic". Read that carefully, this are no exceptions made for elected officials or anyone else who tries to destroy the Constitution. It states CLEARLY, ALL enemies. Yeah, it is getting that serious.
 
Top