A South Dakota perspective on New York mosque debate

[layoutshooter]

It can be hard to take "groups" as individuals in times of stress. Most people know that there are "good" Muslims and "bad" Muslims, for lack of better terms. The problem is telling them apart. Hard to do if you don't know each individual.

Individuals as NOT responsible for what their homeland does. MANY have come here to escape the horror that they lived with in their homeland and have added much to our country. Many serve with pride and honor in our military.

There are also many Muslims who are here only to destroy us. There are terror cells. There are "intell agents" etc.

The trick is to welcome those who want to be here for the right reasons and kill the rest. That is always the way of war.

 

[Pilgrim]

Back in 1917, the United States Government under Wilson started to step up their hate campaign of all things German. It was for the most part to punish the German Immigrant who settled here because of their homeland. Even England got into the act, not being a Democracy helped a lot and the royals changed their names to Windsor to show unity against the Kaiser.

Calling it a hate campaign might be a stretch considering we were at war with Germany at the time. Fair to the German immigrants or not, the culture a century ago did not promote the kinder, gentler sympathy and understanding of our perceived enemy. Perhaps the prejudice in those days was fueled by a greater sense of patriotism.

The point is that this is not in any way shape or form a campaign against Muslim radicals, but rather against Muslims and Islam. The ignorance is what we should be fighting right now, by eliminating the ignorance of what the religion is not.

It has been emphasized ad nauseum that the complaints rest with the jihadists and the fundamentalist sects such as the Wahabbis - not Islam in general. Most conservative editorialists stipulate that in every article; the fact that the radicals want to interpret these disagreements as attacks on Islam in general further exemplifies their false justification for jihad.

D*mn you can't make anything so asinine up if you tried. ​

Agreed: it's a good thing Newt's not subject to random drug testing;- no telling what he was smoking when he wrote that.​

Yea I can't blame them. If you were screwed with since 1917, wouldn't you get smart and also have outlets. They are not stupid people, which seems to be the theme of many of the articles written in the US about them.

There's a lot of history behind all this, but the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people aren't aware of it and don't care. It's breathtaking how many people had never heard a thing about jihadism and never heard of it before 11 Sept 2001. It's a post-911 mentality we're dealing with.

Remember that our great leader, our messiah said something about being ignorant of the world while clinging to our guns and religion?

An ignorant and condescending remark made by possibly the worst president in the nation's history. Ironically, it applies absolutely to the jihadists.

But see when you are expecting them to speak up in opposition, you are lumping them all into the same mold. The issue isn't whether they speak up but if they are feeling that it is wrong and believe me a lot of them do. BUT speaking up is not their way, and to expect it is just as you would expect the Amish to electrify their homes just because the rest of the country is, you should understand that their way to operate isn't the Get in Your Face and protest but to do a lot behind closed doors.

I see your point, but they need to adapt to the realities of the situation; being more visible and demonstrative in their defiance of the radicals would be vastly more effective, not only in the campaign against the jihadists, but also for their positive public perception and support. Surely their leaders must understand this.

I still say that if the Imam Rauf was concerned about the Greater Good, he would find a compromise location a block or two away and the whole issue would be resolved. IMHO he has another agenda of self-promotion aside and apart from the mosque.

 

[greg334]

Calling it a hate campaign might be a stretch considering we were at war with Germany at the time. Fair to the German immigrants or not, the culture a century ago did not promote the kinder, gentler sympathy and understanding of our perceived enemy. Perhaps the prejudice in those days was fueled by a greater sense of patriotism.

You need to really look at that time between 1915 and 1920 to get an idea what I am talking about. Hate is the right word because that is what describes the feeling towards the Germans at that time and most of this came right from our government.

It didn't matter if we were at war with Germany or the central powers, with the starvation in Belgium, the massive armies fighting our "allies" and so on, our government wanted to get into the fight in 1914 but could not. Wilson wanted to start agitating to force us into the war and if Germany didn't sink the Lusitania or the Zimmerman telegraph didn't happen, we would not have been involved and Germany would have won. You do know that a lot of historians at Oxford and Cambridge conclude that the UK should not have gotten involved?

It has been emphasized ad nauseum that the complaints rest with the jihadists and the fundamentalist sects such as the Wahabbis - not Islam in general. Most conservative editorialists stipulate that in every article; the fact that the radicals want to interpret these disagreements as attacks on Islam in general further exemplifies their false justification for jihad.

But see the problem is most of the people who listen to a lot of this can't tell the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim let alone what a Wahabist is or the difference between Shia and Sunni. All they see is Muslim. So many writer are assuming that their material doesn't need a background to be built on but rather think that the average reader is as intelligent as they are.

I see your point, but they need to adapt to the realities of the situation; being more visible and demonstrative in their defiance of the radicals would be vastly more effective, not only in the campaign against the jihadists, but also for their positive public perception and support. Surely their leaders must understand this.

But it really is a lot to ask for by telling them to adapt to our perception. For example I have been told that I need to know what it is like to be a black man but in truth, I can't understand it even if I could. My perception is from my point of view, I understand what it feels like to be discriminated against but I also don't care due to the fact I don't have an identity crisis. The same goes for a lot in the Muslim community, they know who they are, what their culture is and don't feel they need to change themselves but to have people accept them for who they are.


The real issue isn't with the average Muslim, it is with the public at large who can't accept anything except things on their own terms. All of it leads to more distrust and more division between everyone.

I still say that if the Imam Rauf was concerned about the Greater Good, he would find a compromise location a block or two away and the whole issue would be resolved. IMHO he has another agenda of self-promotion aside and apart from the mosque.

But again, it wasn't an issue until the “stop Islamsaztion of X” idiots got involved. They are the ones who have the agenda more so than anyone else. The money they must be raking in has got to be in the 7 digits. Maybe we need to focus on them first and then see where that leads us to – maybe a move would happen.

 

[RLENT]

Greg,

Pardon me for not replying to this sooner - and for my brief reply here.

My available time on EO has been severely restricted as of late, due to trying to get a lot of work on the exterior of our barn before the weather really turns bad and it becomes impossible.

I am starting to think that many members just don't get that they are part of a true hate driven propaganda ploy, a lot like what happened in 1917 with the Germans.

You got it.

People are tremendously easy to manipulate - one only has to figure which buttons to push.

It becomes a real art form when it is done without the individual(s) on the receiving end even knowing what has been done to them.

The downside to it is is that one never knows precisely how a specific individual will react (just that they will) so the exact outcome can never be accurately predicted.

That's why it is always best to try and appeal solely to man's better instincts and his reason, and avoid the baser aspects of man's nature.

.... but religion fanatics within one religion doesn't make it alright to only focus on the entire religion, if that was the case, Christianity has a serious problem

Ain't it the truth ...

I have read that it was once a capital offense in the Christian church for any common man, not a priest, monk, etc. to even possess a Holy Bible (let alone actually know how to read it .....)

I'd be real interested to hear how that little factoid fits into and informs "the Judeo-Christian heritage that our country was founded on ...."

The history of the Roma is something that I personally found tremendously interesting ..... I have read Isabelle Fonseca's "Bury Me Standing" at least half a dozen times .... an utterly fascinating story to be sure .... one well worth knowing for many reasons ..... how an entire people can be utterly suppressed to the point of absolute apathy and what the potential consequences are - for both the suppressor and the suppressee, and general society in the main (good for none, pretty much bad for all)

It is indeed the attitude of far too many Americans that anyone "over there" or hailing from elsewhere is simply stupid and backwards - something that is a real hoot ..... when observing what passes for use of the English language for those (Americans) for whom it is not a second language. (Yet these are the very folks that will be insisting that "et aught to bee hour ofishal langwage" .....)

Every issue has a reason behind it and more than what people are willing to talk about .....

People are prone to looking for easy answers .... ways that complex issues can be reduced or trivialized into a trite "soundbite" explanation or premise ....

It is a consequence of our culture and actually is a manifestation of laziness ... people would rather be fed thoughts to have ... rather than expending the effort to think their own ....

But see when you are expecting them to speak up in opposition, you are lumping them all into the same mold. The issue isn't whether they speak up but if they are feeling that it is wrong and believe me a lot of them do.

Exactly.

BUT speaking up is not their way,

And given that it's not, one simply needs to ask themselves this question ...... and then honestly answer, even if only silently to oneself:

"What am I personally doing to give those people of good will a safe space from which to speak up ?"

I would suggest that those who are responsible for creating the Ground Zero Mosque" controversy (who are not Muslim) are doing absolutely nothing in this regard, and further that their actions do exactly the opposite.

and to expect it is just as you would expect the Amish to electrify their homes just because the rest of the country is, you should understand that their way to operate isn't the Get in Your Face and protest but to do a lot behind closed doors.

Great analogy

The real issue isn't with the average Muslim, it is with the public at large who can't accept anything except things on their own terms.

Believe me when I tell you that the general public has absolutely no clue where this ultimately goes ..... if they did, even just remotely, they would avoid it like the plague.

All of it leads to more distrust and more division between everyone.

Precisely ......

Your outstanding commentary in this thread shows that you clearly have a good grasp on the real history which is relevant to this issue - and even more importantly - what the potential practical implications of that history are, when applied to present day circumstances.

Your points are salient (ie. campaign not really about radicals, but about all Muslims and Islam itself) and insightful - particularly about the true motivations of those who seek to profit in some manner or another through the incitement and fostering of hatred based solely on religiom ....

Who knows ? ..... maybe the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ will do a little invest on Pam Gellar and her whacko cronies under the RICO statutes ..... could be fun .....

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Amazing from an outsider looking in, how Patriotism sometimes comes thru as pure American arrogance and smugness..
as in we are the best and all things being less then us...don't count and should be changed to our standards...

 

[greg334]

Amazing from an outsider looking in, how Patriotism sometimes comes thru as pure American arrogance and smugness..
as in we are the best and all things being less then us...don't count and should be changed to our standards...

Actually Yes that's all true. We lived in a vacuum for a long long time and now we are faced with someone turning off our vacuum source so we are becoming the rest of the world. In many ways it is a good thing but in many ways it is a very bad thing.

Rlent, there are two things about your reply.

One is that we have had a habit for the past 110 years of looking at Europe for answers to things we much answer ourselves. Mainly France is the country of choice and seems to be our guide to enlightenment. I understand most of this comes from the influx of American writers and philosophers in the post war 20's and their propagation of their experiences during the latter part of the 20's and 30's. We have ended up turning to them for everything from Food to correct culture but most of the people who present us with "the French know how it is to be done" fail or refuse to talk to us about what their failures and mistakes are. You may notice this in places like NYC and LA, where anything French seems to be better.

The second thing is I fear more of this thought police style of crime prevention is on the way. Not because we are rioting or anything like that but because the few who don't get it, who don't understand will look for solutions, picking the easy and wrong solutions which one of those will be federal crime investigations and trampling of our rights even more.

One reason I am saying this was the announcement of the DoJ's Civil Rights division's new Detroit office that during the announcement the speaker listed a number of issues that they will investigate - leaving not much in human behavior left that seems to be allowed. I fear that if we continue to go down that Hate road, they will step in without being asked by any group to protect those groups. It will be a clear detriment to the Muslim communities at large as much as it is to the rest of the population because of the already animosity that has been shown over this trivial issue.

By the way - thanks.

 

[witness23]

Amazing from an outsider looking in, how Patriotism sometimes comes thru as pure American arrogance and smugness..
as in we are the best and all things being less then us...don't count and should be changed to our standards...

Yep, kinda like the Soapbox.

 

[witness23]

People are prone to looking for easy answers .... ways that complex issues can be reduced or trivialized into a trite "soundbite" explanation or premise ....

It is a consequence of our culture and actually is a manifestation of laziness ... people would rather be fed thoughts to have ... rather than expending the effort to think their own ....

And there you have it folks, in a nut shell.

 

[RLENT]

The second thing is I fear more of this thought police style of crime prevention is on the way. Not because we are rioting or anything like that but because the few who don't get it, who don't understand will look for solutions, picking the easy and wrong solutions which one of those will be federal crime investigations and trampling of our rights even more.

Greg,

You fears are very well founded indeed ..... what you have enumerated above is, to a large extent, what I was referring to when I said the following:

"Believe me when I tell you that the general public has absolutely no clue where this ultimately goes ..... if they did, even just remotely, they would avoid it like the plague."

One reason I am saying this was the announcement of the DoJ's Civil Rights division's new Detroit office that during the announcement the speaker listed a number of issues that they will investigate - leaving not much in human behavior left that seems to be allowed.

The way to make all men criminals is to prohibit and regulate all manner of things, and then make said prohibitions so complex that they are literally unknowable by the common man.

For some odd reason, (most) people never seem to notice the encroachment of the police state ..... until it's already far, far too late ......

Things are done in the name of "national security" or "human rights" or any of many other buzz words and catch phrases ..... and people laud them, not recognizing the danger of how such things can be turned back on themselves.

Since such actions appear to support their agenda/race/religion/whatever it is deemed all good and holy .... without seeing that what it actually is, is in fact, a train headed directly for them.

It's only a matter of who has their hands on the levers of power (a thing which is not always determined at the ballot box) - and one of the most unrealized things is that issues and people don't always neatly separate into a left/right, conservative/liberal, whatever/anti-whatever paradigm ..... there are those out there who are not motivated by such ideological concerns, but merely by power, and would do in their fellows in a heartbeat, if they deemed it necessary to achieve their own sick ends.

I fear that if we continue to go down that Hate road, they will step in without being asked by any group to protect those groups. It will be a clear detriment to the Muslim communities at large as much as it is to the rest of the population because of the already animosity that has been shown over this trivial issue.

The law of unintended consequences is always hard at work

BTW, for anyone reading here who didn't get it: my comments about Gellar and the DOJ/CRD/RICO and it all being "fun" was a tongue-in-cheek ridicule of the premise.

I have seen some very interesting proposals about the uses of RICO and the mechanisms of the state to target specific groups, however unlikely such targeting might seem to the average person on the street.

While the suggested uses to which the RICO statutes might be put were all very inspired and quite inventive - they were all extremely dangerous to any people who would hope to continue to exist as a free society.

By the way - thanks.

You're quite welcome - you have certainly earned it, by virtue of your thoughtful observations and restrained, well-reasoned commentary.