A South Dakota perspective on New York mosque debate

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Robert G. Duffett rapidcityjournal.com | Posted: Saturday, September 11, 2010 6:00 am

What should the city of New York do? And, does it matter to South Dakotans?

At issue is the possible building of an Islamic mosque only two blocks from Ground Zero, the site of the Sept. 11, 2001 World Trade Center disaster.

All 19 who commandeered four airplanes, turning them into missiles of murder, were both citizens of Saudi Arabia and Muslims.

The proposed mosque, a gathering place of the same faith as those 19 terrorists, conjures rage, grief and pain among loved ones of the deceased.

On what basis should the decision be made to either allow or refuse the building of this mosque? We should look to the wisdom of the past to provide insight.

It may be surprising to some that terrorism and the dark side of religion were major problems at the founding of our country. Our Founding Fathers took direct aim at the dark side of religion through the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison both dealt with terrorism during their presidencies.

The second clause of the Marine Hymn, "From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli," celebrates Jefferson's military response to the terrorism of the Barbary pirates of North Africa. Rather than paying ransom for hijacking American ships, looting its cargo and enslaving crews, Jefferson bombed and invaded Tripoli. Historian Joseph Wheelan says this was America's first war against terrorism.

Madison asked Congress for a declaration of war in 1812 rather than submit to the depredations of the hated British. Why? British ships, like the Barbary pirates less than a decade before, obstructed maritime trade, plundered American ships and kidnapped American sailors.

Earlier in their political careers, Jefferson and Madison devised away to deal with the dark side of religion. They noted from their study of European history that the mixture of the Christian church with government corrupted both church and state.

Madison said it best in an 1822 letter to Edward Livingston, when he wrote, "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed."

Jefferson wrote in his famous letter to Baptist supporters of Danbury, Connecticut, affirming his commitment to the "...high wall of separation between church and state" enshrined in our Constitution.

The first amendment to our Constitution sets out this vision: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof." This amendment asserts government will stay out of religious affairs. And, all religious groups and adherents of no religion are welcome in America.

Jefferson and Madison's path- breaking affirmation of religious freedom in the 1700's is not a relic of the past. It is germane to the New York mosque controversy.

I am confident that if Jefferson and Madison were with us today they would say, "Let the mosque be built." In so doing, America again sends a profound statement to the world on faith and freedom. When followers of radical Islam execute health care workers treating their own citizens and threaten to stone a woman caught in adultery, but not her male partner, America champions a different religious and political vision.

By reaffirming our enduring value of religious freedom to all, we yet again display to the world that America is still the home of the brave and religiously free.

This article is written by Robert G. Duffett, president of Dakota Wesleyan University in Mitchell.
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
I believe if they want to build it there and they can get all the permits, then they should build it. With that being said, I think it is a terribly bad idea. It's a slap in the face of all who died there and also those who are sick and dying that were there during or for cleanup. I've already heard no construction worker in NYC is going to help build it and wonder if they can build it at all without the support of union construction workers. I am not sure they can use non union workers in NYC
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Dakota,
There are more important things that need to be worried about than this Mosque.

What is the difference between this being built near the site and a Mexican community center being built in an area that has had high crime from latinos who refuse to help the authorities fight the crime?

What's the difference when we have a country building centers to assist people while staging war against us by helping people invade our country and avoid being captured?

We are so worried that these Muslims will rise up and take over our country while we ignore more important issues of an invasion and criminal activity by the invasion - doesn't this point to some sort of bigotry when we ignore bigger more serious issues and make trivial ones more important?

Not saying all Mexicans are invaders and all invaders are Mexican is about the same as the saying all terrorists are Muslims and all Muslims are terrorists, both are far from the truth. The truth is we have all kinds of terrorists to worry about, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Jewish and even some Buddhists.

Lest we forget, there were only 19 people who attacked us, not any entire country and since 2001 there have been a lot more crime perpetrated by people who are tagged as "undocumented immigrants" then there have been by all the terrorist acts done to us since they have been blowing themselves up in the 1940's.

The rights to build is the right to build, when we start deciding what is good and what is evil on the religious level, we need to take a serious look at ourselves before we open our mouths.
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
Dakota,
There are more important things that need to be worried about than this Mosque.

What is the difference between this being built near the site and a Mexican community center being built in an area that has had high crime from latinos who refuse to help the authorities fight the crime?

What's the difference when we have a country building centers to assist people while staging war against us by helping people invade our country and avoid being captured?

We are so worried that these Muslims will rise up and take over our country while we ignore more important issues of an invasion and criminal activity by the invasion - doesn't this point to some sort of bigotry when we ignore bigger more serious issues and make trivial ones more important?

Not saying all Mexicans are invaders and all invaders are Mexican is about the same as the saying all terrorists are Muslims and all Muslims are terrorists, both are far from the truth. The truth is we have all kinds of terrorists to worry about, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Jewish and even some Buddhists.

Lest we forget, there were only 19 people who attacked us, not any entire country and since 2001 there have been a lot more crime perpetrated by people who are tagged as "undocumented immigrants" then there have been by all the terrorist acts done to us since they have been blowing themselves up in the 1940's.

The rights to build is the right to build, when we start deciding what is good and what is evil on the religious level, we need to take a serious look at ourselves before we open our mouths.

I think a more important problem is all the illegal aliens<ahem,cough> undocumented workers coming across our borders....
 

D Team Brothers

Expert Expediter
This mosque is being built as a monument to the terrorist who succeeded in their jihad on 9-11. Even the name given to the project represents success to the conquers and has been used thouroghout history to proclaim victory. The mosque should be and has the right to be built - but the choice of it's site is wrong, and it's real intent is evil. J.M.O. Jack
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
This mosque is being built as a monument to the terrorist who succeeded in their jihad on 9-11.
Interestingly, I have not read nor heard a single Muslim make that same statement. Not even a radical one. I have heard several Muslims state, however, that they wish it wouldn't be built there.

Even the name given to the project represents success to the conquers and has been used thouroghout history to proclaim victory.
Yes, the name Cordoba has special significance to Muslims. Among other things, it commemorates the Islamic victory over the Christians, and was the name of the seat of the caliphate of what is now Spain.

Cordoba does have significant historical significance, but it doesn't have that same significance every single time it's used relating to Islam or Muslims. Under the Umayyad dynasty (756-1031) Cordoba was the seat of an independent emirate, which included most of Muslim Spain. At that time was renowned as a cultural and intellectual center, where human excellence in all things, including the quest of learning and knowledge, was fostered. The city was then one of the greatest and wealthiest in Europe, praised as a center of Muslim and Jewish culture and admired for its architectural glories. Science, medicine, history and philosophy of all sorts grew greatly, and resulted in many advances.

At Cordoba, the Great Mosque at Cordoba was built on the foundation of a Catholic cathedral. Some people today, very few of whom are Muslim, view that as a "mosque of triumph", and the "Ground Zero Mosque" in the same light, dim though it may be. The Great Mosque at Cordoba was built not on conquered land, but on land the Muslims bought and paid for. The only victory that mosque represents in the victory of capitalism.

Above it all, Cordoba was a shining monument to cooperation between diverse peoples, and it is in this framework that most Muslims, but very few Christians (and Americans), view the significance of the name. The Caliphates of Cordoba, especially the Caliphates Abd-ar-Rahman III and his son Al-Hakam II, was most known (and is well documented) for being master diplomats in historically helping bridge the gaps between Jews and Christians and North African tribes. Jews and Christians and Muslims lived together in peace. Sharia law was rarely enforced and was hardly the rule of the day, as some would lead people to believe.

The main enemies of Muslim Cordoba were other Muslims, the extremists, same as today, seeking to overthrow the Caliph they had exiled from Damascus and his heirs. Christian churches and Jewish temples still stood, and each person could practice their own religion as freely as they wanted.

People of different religions living together in peace and harmony. Evil, just evil, I tell you.

That's the significance of the name behind the Cordoba House, to build bridges across religions and cultures, to live in peace, and is the exact stated goals for the Ground Zero Mosque as stated many times by the developer.

But, you wanna talk about victory and significance?

Every "Our Lady of Victory" and "Our Lady of the Rosary" Catholic church, and there's just a snotload of them, are each and every one named after the Christian Victory over Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto, where in October 1571 a fleet of Christians known as the Holy League (a coalition of Spain and its territories of Naples, Sicily and Sardinia, the Republic of Venice, the Republic of Genoa, the Duchy of Savory, the Knight Hospitaller, the Papacy, and others), decisively defeated the main fleet of the Islamic Muslim Ottoman Empire.

The Holy League credited the victory to the Virgin Mary, whose intercession with God they had implored for victory through the use of the Rosary. Pope Pius V instituted a new Catholic feast day of Our Lady of Victory to commemorate the battle, which was later renamed and is now celebrated by the Catholic church as the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary.

Flags from captured Muslim ships can be seen on display in various Catholic churches in Spain and around Rome and the Vatican. At the Monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Spain, one can view a huge warship lantern that was captured from the Muslims in the Battle of Lepanto. In Rome, look up to the ceiling of S. Maria in Aracoeli and behold decorations in gold taken from the galleys of the Turkish Muslim ships. In the Doges' Palace in Venice, Italy, one can witness a giant Islamic flag, a trophy from a vanquished Turkish ship from the Victory. At Saint Mary Major Basilica in Rome, close to the tomb of the great St. Pope Pius V, until 1965 visitors were able to view yet another Islamic flag from the Battle, from the flagship of the Turks, but it was returned to Istanbul in a gesture of friendship.

The mosque should be and has the right to be built - but the choice of it's site is wrong, and it's real intent is evil. J.M.O. Jack
It could very well be that the Devil has tricked Allah into preordaining the building of this mosque just so that evil will come forth and spread hatred and bloodshed. The only question is on which side that evil will manifest itself. The scoreboard so far has Christians with a commanding lead. And I do love a good irony.
 

transporter

Expert Expediter
the barbery pirates were not terrosist. they were a few north african countries that demanded payment from countries that their merchant ships passed by. the countries that didnot pay the tribute/tax had their ships confiscated and ransomed. the us went to war with them to secure free trade. terrost are not pirates they both might kill you but their reasons are different
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Interestingly, I have not read nor heard a single Muslim make that same statement. Not even a radical one. I have heard several Muslims state, however, that they wish it wouldn't be built there.

This Lady, IMHO, explains it best and to the statement in question she says COULD BE...

Another.......

Cordova is a city in south Spain. Muslims armies invaded Spain in 711, massacring countless people. Then they converted the biggest church in Cordova into a mosque.
Building mosques over churches, synagogues and temples of the conquered people began during the life of Muhammad who converted the temple of the Arabs in Mecca into an Islamic mosque.
Muslims have been doing the same ever since. Numerous Hindu temples, churches, synagogues and Zoroastrian temples were converted into mosques. The objective is twofold” To humiliate the defeated people and to establish the supremacy of Islam.
FULL STORY HERE...

If one pokes around that site a little more there's a lot to be learned there. I trust these voices of current or former Muslims because they've forgotten more about Islam than I'll ever know.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
the barbery pirates were not terrosist. they were a few north african countries that demanded payment from countries that their merchant ships passed by. the countries that didnot pay the tribute/tax had their ships confiscated and ransomed. the us went to war with them to secure free trade. terrost are not pirates they both might kill you but their reasons are different
Ah, but the Barbary Pirates were Muslims, which therefore hence thus thusly and ergo makes them terrorists. <snort>

Hey, didja know the most famous, feared and notorious Barbary Pirate was a Christian Englishman named Captain Jack Ward? England wasn't a member of his fan club. The Crown had a price on his head that is today still unmatched. In the final before finally his death from the Plague at the age of 69, in one last slap at the Crown and the Church of England, he officially renounced Christianity and converted to Islam.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I trust these voices of current or former Muslims because they've forgotten more about Islam than I'll ever know.
Of that I have no doubt. Do you really and truly honestly believe that former Muslims have an unbiased and objective opinion about Islam? It's akin to disgruntled former workers being unbiased about their former workplace. It's like getting an honest an objective view of Christianity from a former priest who has renounced Christianity.

People who hate Islam, former Muslims included, are by nature going to present a skewed version of it. The truth is out there, and it's not even remotely close to being as black and white and some believe. But you've got to go out there and find it, and the only way you'll find it is by looking at some place other than a place where they hate Islam or have some bias against it. Don't squat on places where you are only interested in looking for things that confirm what you already believe to be true or that you want to be true.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Again no one seems to want to actually learn but to depend on others to tell them what they should learn themselves.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Again no one seems to want to actually learn but to depend on others to tell them what they should learn themselves.
Yup - another aspect to it is this: rather than leading, most folks would prefer to be led ..... :rolleyes:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well listening to it this morning was an education in how ignorant people have become, it centered around three things; the conquest of the country, how the Muslims have only one goal in their lives and how we are going to be a country under Sharia within 5 years.

It really was just something else to hear.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain

It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.
Mark Twain
 
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