57 mpg? That's so 20 years ago

Camper

Not a Member
Just goes to show how far ahead the private sector is in terms of the very standards the government likes to preach.

In fact, by implementing all these needless safety regulations like SRS(safety restraint systems) which have added more size/weight to today's vehicles, Government has in fact thwarted the industry's progress towards higher mileage averages.


*Please note, this article is almost four years old. I stumbled upon it while researching Honda engines.*


Twenty-year-old Civics got 57 miles per gallon - Dec. 19, 2007

57 mpg? That's so 20 years ago
Want to drive a cheap car that gets eye-popping mileage? In 1987 you could - and it wasn't even a hybrid.
Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
December 20 2007: 1:13 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Car makers are confident they can meet new government rules calling for a national fleet average of 35 miles per gallon. But it will take a big technological push, they say.

You might wonder why, since twenty years ago the car that got the best mileage in the nation was a real techno-wimp compared to what's on the road today. It wasn't even a hybrid. But it got better fuel economy than any car sold now - even the Toyota Prius.

Looking back at the 1987 Honda Civic CRX shows us why cars use so much more gas today and about the trade-offs we've had to make.

The CRX HF got an Environmental Protection Agency-estimated 57 mpg gallon in highway driving. Today, the most fuel-efficient non-hybrid Civic you can buy gets an EPA-estimated 34 mpg on the highway. Even today's Honda Civic Hybrid can't match it, achieving EPA-estimated highway mileage of just 45 mpg. The Toyota Prius, today's fuel mileage champ, gets 46 mpg on the highway.

Why then, not now?
One answer for the mileage drop is that the rating system has changed. Beginning with the 2008 model year, the EPA began using a more rigorous fuel economy test that means lower numbers for most cars. But that's only a small part of the answer.

If the old CRX HF were tested using today's rules, its highway fuel economy would drop to 51 mpg, according to the EPA's calculations. That's still much better than any mass-market car sold today, including hybrid cars.

The bigger answer is that the Honda Civic has changed a lot in twenty years. Honda no longer sells a tiny two-seat version like the CRX. Even Civics with back seats are much bigger and heavier today than similar versions were in 1987.

It's in the nature of the car business that companies want to offer more - more legroom, more trunk space - with each redesign. As a result, cars get bigger and bigger.

Besides size, American consumers expect a lot more convenience out of a car than they did in 1985. Today, we expect power steering, power brakes, power windows and more.

The base CRX HF did not have power steering or power brakes. (As light as it was, it really didn't need them.) Air conditioning was optional, as it was on most cars in those days, so it didn't figure into the EPA's fuel economy ratings.

Today's consumers also expect safety. In the 1980s, car companies would sell cars that got one-star or two-star crash test ratings. Numbers like that would now cause car companies fits. Four out of five stars is considered the minimum acceptable rating.

The modern Civic has airbags front and side, electronic stability control and built-in crash protecting structures in the body. (See correction.)

Even the CRX's biggest fans wouldn't relish the thought of getting into a wreck in one of those cars. While actual crash test results are not available, even a Honda (HMC) spokesman admitted the car probably wouldn't have fared well by modern standards.

"Without the benefit of modern crash structure and extensive use of high strength steel, cars from two decades ago couldn't match the crash test performance of today's Hondas," said Honda spokesman Chris Naughton.

Increased safety, meaning more weight from airbags and crash structure, has meant lower fuel economy.

"It's kind of a classic engineering fight where safe cars compete with more fuel-efficient cars," said Todd Lassa, a writer for Motor Trend magazine and a CRX aficionado.

Lassa once owned a CRX DX, one step up in price and performance - and down in fuel economy - from the HF. (A 1987 sales brochure he still has provided some of the numbers for this story.)

A fun car to drive
Not that the CRX was a bad car. Far from it. Even before Honda introduced a performance version called the CRX Si, the lightweight, fun to drive Civic CRX was Motor Trend's "Import Car of the Year" when it first hit the market in 1985.

Even in its base HF trim, the CRX was considered a fun car to drive because it was small and responsive. Its zero-to-sixty time, though - about 12 seconds by some estimates - would put it well behind even a large, sedate family sedan like the Ford Taurus today.

Weighing less than 1,800 pounds, the CRX HF was powered by a 58-horsepower engine. Today's base Honda Civic weighs almost 2,600 pounds and is powered by a 140 horsepower engine. That's about 12.5 pounds less weight per pony today, despite greatly increased size.

"The lightest cars you can buy today are about 40 percent heavier than that car," Lassa said of his old CRX.

Comparing essentially similar Honda Civic sedans from the 1980s and today reveals that today's car gets considerably better fuel economy (40 highway mg vs. 32) despite having a larger engine with much more power (140 horsepower vs. 76).

Daimler is about to find out how much appetite American's now have for inexpensive little two-seat cars that emphasize fuel economy over performance. It's just begun selling the tiny Smart ForTwo here. But even the ForTwo, which is smaller than the CRX, will get about 41 mpg on the highway, according to Daimler. (Official EPA estimates aren't out yet.).

Rumors swirl today, as they have for years, that Honda is planning to bring out a modern version of the CRX. Lassa says he pushes the idea whenever he speaks with Honda executives.

This time, though, the CRX HF would have to be a hybrid, he said. (Perhaps the one the company just announced it will make for 2009.) There just isn't any other way to pull that off today.

Correction: An earlier version of this story mentioned that the Honda Civic was an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety Top Safety Pick. In fact, it the Civic was removed from that list when the Insurance Institute added a requirement for electronic stability control, which the Civic does not have. (Back to story.)

Honda to roll out new hybrid in '09

A 35 mpg future for your car
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I must be missing something - if consumers want comfort [leg room, air conditioning, power windows/steering] and safety,[ and they/we do, no question], how is it the government's fault? :confused:
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
Not sure how old that article is but Honda did put out a car albeit larger than the original CRX the CRZ fits the bill. It doesn't give you 57 mpg though.
I owned the first gen CRX HF and also the second gen CRX SI
Both cars were great and fun to drive and the only car I have ever driven(I'm 6'2") that I couldn't put the seat all the way back.
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
I've also owned a Chevy Sprint 3 cyl and a Geo Metro 3 cyl and a Daihatsu Charade 3 cyl all of them got great mileage
in addition I have owned 3 first gen Honda Civic CVCC's
 

Camper

Not a Member
I must be missing something - if consumers want comfort [leg room, air conditioning, power windows/steering] and safety,[ and they/we do, no question], how is it the government's fault? :confused:

The issue is the government mandating minimum fuel efficiency standards while at the same time mandating unnecessary safety features like SRS systems which add to the size/weight of vehicles. Hence, the governments fault.

And many consumers(myself included) would gladly do without many of the safety/comfort features you mentioned. One of My favorite vehicles that I owned was an '84 Mazda GLC with no A/C, no power steering or power locks. If such a vehicle was still available, I'd be first in line to buy it. Unfortunately such vehicles don't meet today's excessive safety reguations and are therefor not allowed to be manufactured.


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Dakota

Veteran Expediter
The issue is the government mandating minimum fuel efficiency standards while at the same time mandating unnecessary safety features like SRS systems which add to the size/weight of vehicles.

And many consumers(myself included) would gladly do without many of the safety/comfort features you mentioned. One of My favorite vehicles that I owned was an '84 Mazda GLC with no A/C, no power steering or power locks.


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Did you know GLC stood for Great Little Car?
Seriously!!!
Every year the cars keep getting bigger and bigger
Compare a first gen Honda Civic to a current Honda Civic
The first gen was the size a mini cooper, the current Civic is Ford Tauras sized. The majority of Americans want big car so that is what we have, I for one like the smaller cars!!!
 

Camper

Not a Member
Every year the cars keep getting bigger and bigger
Compare a first gen Honda Civic to a current Honda Civic
The first gen was the size a mini cooper, the current Civic is Ford Tauras sized. The majority of Americans want big car so that is what we have, I for one like the smaller cars!!!

Many Americans do want big cars, however, I don't know that they're a true majority. One of the top selling vehicles happens to be the Ford Fiesta which is arguably the closest thing to a modern version of yesterday's Honda Civic or Mazda GLC.

A big issue is the dearth of true compact cars in the states due to the government regulations. There are many true compact models in Europe and Asia that would sell like hot cakes in the states if they weren't precluded due to safety standards.








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Dakota

Veteran Expediter
Problem is the trucks are bigger here and alot of the cars are bigger, necessitating the need for more safety standards.
I agree there are alot of cars sold overseas that would sell like hotcakes, also you can get those smaller cars with all the luxuries like leather, power windows, nav system that some of the smaller cars here don't have.
Although power windows and automatics are pretty much a standard on any car now.
why does the government feel the need to protect me, if I want to drive an unsafe car, I should be able to
I own and drive a '70 VW bug, by today's standards it is a death trap, but I like driving it. One reason they stopped selling Beetles in the US in '79 was safety standards, I am sure they would have been sold as long as the mexican beetle was.
 

Camper

Not a Member
I own and drive a '70 VW bug, by today's standards it is a death trap, but I like driving it. One reason they stopped selling Beetles in the US in '79 was safety standards, I am sure they would have been sold as long as the mexican beetle was.

The VW Bug is a perfect example of a great product chased away by the nanny state zealots. The modern bug doesn't hold a candle to the original engine in the rear classic.





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Dakota

Veteran Expediter
They made VW bugs in Mexico till the late 2000's and they had airconditioning, fuel injection, smog devices, but because of safety standards they weren't allowed here(although there were ways to get them here) I'd buy one in a heartbeat!!!
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
there is not even a solid steel bar under it...a head on crash or rear ending a truck would be.....the end of ya....

Actually the cars now are designed to crumple, to take the force of the hit and distribute it. The older cars with metal bumpers, transfered all the force to the occupants and also caused frame damage
The Sprinter probably has crumple zones
 

Camper

Not a Member
I've also owned a Chevy Sprint 3 cyl and a Geo Metro 3 cyl and a Daihatsu Charade 3 cyl all of them got great mileage
in addition I have owned 3 first gen Honda Civic CVCC's

The Chevy Sprint was actually an Isuzu with the chevy logo). Hence the reason it was such a great little car. I'm not aware of a single union-made "compact" that did as well, mileage or reliability wise as their foreign counterparts.

Also, I believe the Geo Metro was Korean-made but I'm not 100% sure.


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Dakota

Veteran Expediter
The Chevy Sprint was actually an Isuzu with the chevy logo). Hence the reason it was such a great little car. I'm not aware of a single union-made "compact" that did as well, mileage or reliability wise as their foreign counterparts.

Also, I believe the Geo Metro was Korean-made but I'm not 100% sure.


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Geo Metro was a suzuki
Some of the other Geo's were Isuzu or toyota
just like the ford escort was a mazda
Americans car makers didn't really make good compacts
ie Vega, Chevette,Pinto
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
The biggest issue with gas mileage is everything that the Fed /gov mandates from the safety "stuff" to "protect us"..to the Emission controls...again to "protect the people"....

It is not to Gov's place or job to protect us in these ways...i don't ee where these type of "gov mandates" can be construed as "defense of the country...which is their job...
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
if you want a 50 mpg car look at the gen 4 vw jetta/golf tdi 5 spds. i have many friends who get over 50 mpg at reasonable speeds. high 40's if you want to travel say 80 mph.

the cr was a nice car but small and sparse but NOT what americans wanted if it was the car would have had record sales numbers.


would you really want a rear engined 67 hp beetle at 22 mpg? really?
 
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Dakota

Veteran Expediter
would you really want a rear engined 67 hp beetle at 22 mpg? really?

Yes I would, and I average around 25 with my beetle and it is 41 years old with a carb
I don't go over 60 in it though!!!
I don't drive mine in the winter, although tthey are very good in the snow, too much salt on the roads
 
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