1st Outs

are12 · Feb 21, 2008

Why do some driver's feel the need to ask for a 1st out with each and every load?

We have heard of driver's asking for a 1st out, with a load that is paying over 1000 miles, just because they feel they are going into a bad area, such as Laredo and Dallas. And some driver's are actually getting them!

1st outs were supposed to be for mini's or 2 - 300 mile runs, if dispatch is desperate to get someone to take the load, not for long hauls. If a driver is not willing to take the load without the 1st out, then find another driver.

We are all in this business to make money but it is not fair to the one's that have been sitting in these areas to be bumped by someone that does not want to sit 2 days. And these driver's taking these 1st outs have to remember, what goes around comes around. So the next time you are offered a good load and your first thought is to ask for a 1st out, stop and think a minute. How would you feel if you were sitting in these area's for 2 to 3 days and someone comes in with a load that had miles and a 1st out??

butterfly610 · Feb 21, 2008

I agree. It's really frustrating when you've been waiting your turn for several days and then someone comes in with a 1st out and takes your position away. The only plus to it, is usually when we've done a mini and gotten a 1st out, they waste it on some short trip, so maybe being 2nd doesn't always hurt so much...lol. I think that would be kind of ridiculous saying you need a 1st out with a long haul. Isn't the fact that your getting offered a long haul good enough?

are12 · Feb 21, 2008

That's our point!!

LDB · Feb 21, 2008

are12 said:
And these driver's taking these 1st outs have to remember, what goes around comes around. So the next time you are offered a good load and your first thought is to ask for a 1st out, stop and think a minute. How would you feel if you were sitting in these area's for 2 to 3 days and someone comes in with a load that had miles and a 1st out??[/COLOR][/SIZE]

The problem is they aren't thinking about others and never will. Equity isn't part of their vocabulary. The only thing to consider is what can they get for themselves and if it screws somebody else that's too bad, it's all part of the business.

This is an issue that will be addressed at the next meeting and hopefully improved upon.

greywolf184 · Feb 21, 2008

I have to agree. We have had first outs giving to us, but only occassionaly, and only on a mini. We hardly ever ask for one, and usually get out in the same amount of time. Our last first out was offered to us to go to Laredo from San Antonio back last month. I don't see any need to have one. Most of the time they really don't mean anything anyway. I feel they should control the number of first outs they give. They were supposed to be cutting back on them, but I couldn't tell since we have been bumped a lot in all different areas.

Tennesseahawk · Feb 21, 2008

I see two sides to this.

One is what you're saying. It's not fair. First out is a tool to make undesirable loads more inviting; not to automatically make you #1 after every drop.

The other is that this is a business. You are a competitor to this guy. If he has enough nads to consistantly ask for a first out, and get it, he deserves it. His business will boom because he's treating it like a business, and not a "wait your turn" cafeteria shindig.

Would I be pizzed if someone did that to me? Sure I would... for not getting a first out myself, and letting him get in front of me. Yes, I'd be mad if he OUTSMARTED me too.

This is a dog eat dog biz we're in... and it's only getting more flea-bitten by the day. You can't expect little rules to save you from someone more business savvy. Dispatchers won't get loads covered with their hands tied. Your best bet is to find a way to outsmart YOUR competitor.

The other option is that Panther will limit first outs to minis, and that's it. Being that they have a "first out board" tells me differently, tho.

are12 · Feb 21, 2008

We understand that everyone out here is our competitor and that this is a business but this is not what the 1st out's are supposed to be about!

Just because someone does not like the area, they should get a 1st out? If that is the case, then I want a 1st out for all loads that I take because all the area's stink right now!!

dhalltoyo · Feb 22, 2008

After asking numerous drivers over the past couple of years regarding FIFO rules, the overwhelming majority agree that there are two rules to remember in this business:

Rule 1 : Dispatchers will load who they chose to load.

Rule 2 : Dispatchers have memories.

My advice: Play nice, smile and don't let it bother you. Why? Simple! Complaining only ruins your day and it will never solve the problem.

Call it favoritism, buddy system, good ole boy system, etc., it is just the way things are done in business. I am not condoning the action, I am only stating that it is a common practice.

cheri1122 · Feb 22, 2008

The practice of offering a 'first out' to persuade a driver to take an otherwise undesirable load is of great value to dispatchers, but very little, to the drivers, IMO.
If it's offered because the load is delivering in Nowhereville, you'd be the only one there anyway, if there were a load out, which there wouldn't be. And you'll probably deadhead a ludicrous number of miles for the next load.
If you deliver in Chicago, even with a first out, you can be bypassed for any of several reasons, so where's the benefit?
A much more equitable tool for dispatch would be the ability to offer enough money to make it a desirable (or at least acceptable) load, no?

are12 · Feb 22, 2008

I would much prefer a bonus than a 1st out!!

jaminjim · Feb 22, 2008

I get a bonus AND a first out on all my loads

romoore245 · Feb 22, 2008

The whole first out thing is getting a bit crazy. We talked to a team a while back that was sixth first out. The best thing about the first out board is that it follows you, unlike normal board positions. If you are first out in nowherville then go to bigcityville and be first out. Dispatchers do seem to think that a first out offer will make any load great. So many times we hear we will give you a first out, if you will DH 250 miles for this 300 mile run. No extra money though. We like it best when they ask "Is there anything we can do to make you take this load? My house needs painted..." guess that would be asking too much.

jaminjim · Feb 22, 2008

romoore245 said:
"Is there anything we can do to make you take this load? My house needs painted..." guess that would be asking too much.

That thar is funny, I don't care who you are.

ATeam · Feb 22, 2008

I am wondering, on the long runs, why worry about first out status at all?

Competing for first out seems to be a way for drivers to compete (quibble) for something that costs the carrier nothing to give, and if there is not freight in the undesirable area (which is why it is an undesirable area) to begin with, may mean little more than sitting too long before the next load materializes. First out when? First out to where? What are you competing for really?

First out (or less-than-75 as FedEx calls them) makes good sense on short runs (minis), IF it is awarded to only one driver and that driver retains first out status until used. If first out is awarded to another driver when it has already been given to one, first out is meaningless. Multiple first outs given to multiple drivers in an area are OK, IF they are retained by drivers in the order given. First outs provide a meaningful incentive for drivers to cover short runs without significantly changing their location relative to a busy or slow area.

FedEx does not give less-than-75 status on runs over 75 miles, so first out on long runs are not an issue for us. But if it were possible to ask for first out status on a long run, we would not.

When Diane and I look at a long run into an undesirable area, we don't ask for anything other than MONEY to address the undesirable area issue. If the MONEY is there, we will take the run. If it is not, we will not.

For example, suppose a load is going to a remote location in Canada. We will locate the nearest GOOD express center and add the miles to it from the remote delivery location. If there is enough MONEY in the run to cover all miles from the pickup to the delivery AND THEN to our express center of choice, we will take the run. If not, we will tell dispatch our price to cover the load. If they want to cover it bad enough, they and/or the shipper will find the MONEY. And if they don't, we know we are better off turning down the run.

You can't pay for oil changes with first out credits. Expediting is about the MONEY. Equity is important in any dispatch system. Profitability is important for drivers making load accept/delcine decisions.

When runs to undesirable areas are offered, don't quibble about first out status, quibble about the MONEY. If the MONEY is not offered, don't quibble at all. Just respectfully decline the offer and look ahead to the next one.

By focusing on the money, you solve another problem. You don't have to worry about cheating other drivers in an undesirable location out of their hard-earned dwell time. You avoid the ethical issues of extracting a first-out exception from the carrier that costs the carrier nothing to give but hurts your fellow drivers.

Turtle · Feb 22, 2008

There's undesirable, and then there's undesirable. Here's a 350 mile run to New Orleans. No Thanks. I'll give you a First Out! Uhm, gee, a First Out in New Orleans. Sweet. <barf> As if dangling the First Out carrot for New Orleans suddenly makes the deadhead afterwards to Houston, Memphis or Birmingham a non-issue.

Give me enough money to cover the deadhead, plus the First Out, and you probably have a deal. The First Out will come in handy when I arrive at Houston, Memphis or Birmingham.

Detroit, on the other hand, is a borderline joke. It's getting to the point where an 800 mile run to Detroit is gonna require a First Out along with it, especially if you go to Canada. Yeah, you'll be 6th down on the First Out board, but you'll be offered mainly loads from Detroit to Windsor once you get there, lots of them, several a day, even as people below you on the board (who don't/won't/can't go to Canada) are offered 600 mile runs to exciting and exotic places like beautiful downtown New Bern, NC.

But if you have that coveted First Out you at least don't lose your First Out for turning down another mini (CV 75, ST 100, TT 175 miles), no matter how many you turn down.

My favorite one, though, is when they want you (me, in a van) to deadhead 50 miles up to Troy to pick up a load going 76 miles to Chatham. Never mind that 12 drivers have already turned that one down, if you turn it down, because it's more than 75 miles, you lose your First Out and then drop to about 19 on the board. That's always fun.

Fr8 Shaker · Feb 22, 2008

I have said for years now that they should do away with these first outs, Mainly because they don't mean anything. ie: you get offered another bad load right after and then lose your first out for turning that load down. You get to your destination and find your 6th first out, which translates to 6th out no matter how you look at it. I don't know how many times I've been burned by them sitting and working my way to first out only to have someone come in with one putting me down on the board again and again as they keep rolling in whether they got the first out for coming there or they brought it with them from another area. Your on that board because loads are being generated from there and move down the board sometimes quicker then you move up it. So whats your choice, deadhead alot of miles to another area only to have it happen there?

Anyway what they should do is get rid of the first out and just pay more for the load. (mini) In my opinion, and just using cargo vans for example, A mini should pay the van 100.00 and Panther should be charging a min. of 125.00 for any mini. I mean come on this is still expedite and they are getting exclusive use of a vehicle for a pickup NOW deliver Now load. Also they should be going by dwell time, if you have been sitting longer then anyone there you should be loaded out of there first. and not lose your board position for turning down a load. (Man do I miss Conway.) I'm in this to make a living not spend my money to haul around someones freight.

Don't even get me started on detention! Giving up first 2 hours free!

Turtle · Feb 22, 2008

For trucks, a 2 hour wait for detention is standard, as there are a lot of cases where there aren't any docks open for them to pull into, and it can take a lot longer for them to get loaded or unloaded for many reasons. But for a cargo van, detention should start after one hour. At a shipper, unless they are running behind and the parts are still being built, there's no reason to ever incur detention. At the consignee, there's no reason to incur detention at all, ever, not if the people booking the loads bothered to confirm pick up and delivery times.

If detention for cargo vans was $50 a half hour after one hour, and either the customer or Panther was on the hook for that amount of cash, we wouldn't get paid more for detention, detention would simply disappear. Pickup and delivery times would be confirmed, and we'd get loaded and unloaded expeditiously. And then we'd be available quicker to make us, and Panther, more money.

Fr8 Shaker · Feb 22, 2008

Turtle said:
For trucks, a 2 hour wait for detention is standard, as there are a lot of cases where there aren't any docks open for them to pull into, and it can take a lot longer for them to get loaded or unloaded for many reasons. But for a cargo van, detention should start after one hour. At a shipper, unless they are running behind and the parts are still being built, there's no reason to ever incur detention. At the consignee, there's no reason to incur detention at all, ever, not if the people booking the loads bothered to confirm pick up and delivery times.

If detention for cargo vans was $50 a half hour after one hour, and either the customer or Panther was on the hook for that amount of cash, we wouldn't get paid more for detention, detention would simply disappear. Pickup and delivery times would be confirmed, and we'd get loaded and unloaded expeditiously. And then we'd be available quicker to make us, and Panther, more money.

Yes today a 2 hour detention is the standard but many years ago when I got into this I was driving a straight truck, when expedite was exactly that expedite. I can't tell you how many times I would show up at either the shipper or consignee and if there were no docks open they would have a truck pull out telling the driver I'm sorry but we need this freight. And as I recall detention started after the 1st half hour. Companys were charged differently for having exclusive use of a vehicle and we were a priority but as more and more people and companys started getting into expedite they started giving away OUR SERVICES as an incentive to use their company. Today were basically the quicker common carrier.

Moot · Feb 27, 2008

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"I think our new slogan, "Seeing is Believing," really captures the spirit here at Panther. We are making changes to improve our operations and procedures and those changes will have a positive impact on our owner-operators and drivers and their bottom line." [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]