What would war with Russia look like?

[EASYTRADER]

It doesn't matter anyway because the US is broke getting broker, and in 10 years we won't be able to field an army larger than 100k anyway.

Go check out CBO.GOV, it ain't a conspiracy.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Our borders are pourous because entering the US illegaly is a "civil infraction" its not actually consdidered a crime. It hasn't been a "crime" since the 70's

 

[Ragman]

Dave,

You are a warmonger. Nothing happening out side of north america is a vital US interest.

Every problem you stated is a vital interest for some other country. The Arabs are Isreals problem, Russia is the EUs problem., We have already fought China 3 times won once. None of those battles took place anywhere remotly near the US.

Even Hitler wasn't a US problem he as a Brittish one and only because Churchill refused to make peace. The only French who were worth saving died in the opening days of the war, the rest of the country surrendered.

I think you believe to much of the "military industrial complex" propaganda. Eisenhower was the last honest US President, the rest of them have all been Facscists working toward a single governmnt run by corporations.

The GDP of the EU is bigger than than US their populaton is larger too. Perhaps we sould let Europe handle Europe.

One other little tidbit of history, we attacked Germany and Japan first in WW2. We were fighting the Japs in China in 1936, and we sunk a German destroyer in the North Atlantic in 1940.
Not widely publised.

Of all US wars wwii was probly the most "moral", but it was not of vital US interest.

Incidently, if we had not gotten involved, the Russians would have kicked Hitlers *** by themselves.

When hitler invaded Stalin didn't believe it, not because they had a treaty, but because the Russians had a reserve army of 500 divisions, Germany at the hieght of its power could only muster 150 divisions.

Hence, the toll of numbers. Anybody who thinks the US won WW2 simply doesn't know the history, just the propaganda.

I admit that is a rabbit trail, but its to the point, the fact is the American people were lied to about ww1 and ww2, it was pure propaganda. Guess what, no WMDs so we got played again. How can you trust anything that you are being told by US media.

The Ukranian deal is about natural gas distrubution to the EU, plain and simple. Russia is the last hold out for the NWO, so the vrious factions are trying to corner them into a war like was done to the Kaiser (for similiar reasons).

I actually think this BS is a play by the Isrealis to get a market for their natural gas.

We'll see, but Putin didnt start this the US did. Did you know isreal is sitting on one of the largest natural gas reserves in the wolrd, yet they have no customers. How convenient political turmoil in the Ukraine is for them.

Its all about the MONEY!!!

Really?

 

[davekc]

Dave,

You are a warmonger. Nothing happening out side of north america is a vital US interest.
!

What planet are you living on? A large percentage of our economy is dependent upon other nations. So yes, to a degree, it is about the money. I don't think we should be in other countries business but at the same time, I don't think most would hypothetically agree that it would be ok for say Russia to take over all of Europe. I don't think there is a absolute on something like this.

 

[Big Al]

That's not quite what he said. His exact words were "Russia is a regional power" which is not a country, or small, either.
I think he is correct, in that Russia is misbehaving, but it's not the biggest threat we face right now, and sanctions & diplomacy should be used to persuade them that they need to back down.
Maybe we find the idea of war less terrifying than we should, because we've never [except at Pearl Harbor] faced the consequences in our own back yard. I hope we never have to, so it's good to hear a President who doesn't see any need to rush for the armaments at the first chance.

So was Hitlers Germany in the late 30's. Obama demonstrates weakness and that leads some to take advantage. Rhetoric rarely solves problems even if you are enthralled with your own. Good rule for leaders, don't say something unless you mean to back it up.

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[layoutshooter]

Is it "Neville Obama" or "Barack Chamberlain"?

 

[Ragman]

One other little tidbit of history, we attacked Germany and Japan first in WW2. We were fighting the Japs in China in 1936, and we sunk a German destroyer in the North Atlantic in 1940.
Not widely publised.

Of all US wars wwii was probly the most "moral", but it was not of vital US interest.

What planet are you living on?

Apparently not this one.

 

[layoutshooter]

"One other little tidbit of history, we attacked Germany and Japan first in WW2. We were fighting the Japs in China in 1936, and we sunk a German destroyer in the North Atlantic in 1940. Not widely published."


What was the name of that destroyer? As to US involvement in China, it was widely published.

 

[KickStarter6]

"One other little tidbit of history, we attacked Germany and Japan first in WW2. We were fighting the Japs in China in 1936, and we sunk a German destroyer in the North Atlantic in 1940. Not widely published."


What was the name of that destroyer? As to US involvement in China, it was widely published.

Weren't they the old flying tigers flying P40's? Also didn't we send pilots and tons resources to Great Britain before the war? After Pearl Harbor didn't we round up all citizens of Japanese decent and put them in containment camps? Even if we sunk a destroyer during that time the Gulf of Mexico was one of most dangerous freight lanes in the world because of German uboats?


Edit: forgot about the death march that happened to army troops in pacific. I shouldn't have my grandfather was their but that was after pearl harbor

 

[layoutshooter]

Weren't they the old flying tigers flying P40's? Also didn't we send pilots and tons resources to Great Britain before the war? After Pearl Harbor didn't we round up all citizens of Japanese decent and put them in containment camps? Even if we sunk a destroyer during that time the Gulf of Mexico was one of most dangerous freight lanes in the world because of German uboats?


Edit: forgot about the death march that happened to army troops in pacific. I shouldn't have my grandfather was their but that was after pearl harbor

We were involved in China prior to the "Flying Tigers". The "Tigers" were not all US flyers, as in they were NOT in the US military. My Dad was attached to that group, after they were "absorbed" into the Army after the start of the war.

We did intern many Japanese/Americans after the start of the war, not one of our best moments.

The "Death March" was on Bataan. My wife's uncle was a survivor of that.

We passed an "ACT", known as the "Lend/Lease act, that we used to start shipping equipment into England prior to the attack on Pearl.

Flying Tigers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bataan Death March - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALL of the above is a VERY "short" version of history and not intended to be other wise.

 

[KickStarter6]

We were involved in China prior to the "Flying Tigers". The "Tigers" were not all US flyers, as in they were NOT in the US military. My Dad was attached to that group, after they were "absorbed" into the Army after the start of the war.

We did intern many Japanese/Americans after the start of the war, not one of our best moments.

The "Death March" was on Bataan. My wife's uncle was a survivor of that.

We passed an "ACT", known as the "Lend/Lease act, that we used to start shipping equipment into England prior to the attack on Pearl.

Flying Tigers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bataan Death March - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALL of the above is a VERY "short" version of history and not intended to be other wise.

Good to know that my Netflix watching hasn't gone to waste as I've at least learned some basic info on WWII

 

[EASYTRADER]

My source or the German destroyer sinking was "The Rise and Fall of the third Riech" - I read it in another book also but I don't remember the name of the vessel. The incident was not publicised by either side. I believe the first public mention of it was in Shires book. Anyway there were several reported incidents with submarines. But the US side of the story in those incidents is "dubious" at best because the Kriegsmarine was under orders from der furor not to engage us shipping.

Hitler did not want the US in the war and published an order to the Kriegsmarine that they not attack US ships and that they not fire back if fired upon. The order was recinded by 1941.

Dave,

With the exception of the war of 1812, and possibly the invasion of Afganistan. Every war has been driven by economics and NONE of those economic forces had anything to do with life for the common man.

Less than 20% of the US population works for large corporations, the war driving economic interest isn't mine or yours but thiers. This thing in the Ukraine wasn't started by Russia it was started by us, Russias involvement is what is called "blowback". The US overthrew Ukraines governemnt and eplaced it with unelected "self described Neo Nazis", Putin has decided he ain't gonna play that game.

Personally I doubt we go to war over this because Obama don't really care he's just going through the motions. But Russia is being surrounded, and the only reason they pose a threat to US is because rather than compete fairly and openly for the EU energy markets we'd rather use political manipulations.

The middle east is about Saudi Oil, and eastern Europe about natural gas. Please stop being a chump. If the US governemnt gave a **** about doing the right thing we would have invaded Darfour, or any of 100 smaller conflicts where the people were truelly innocent in need of protection, but wait darfour ain't got no oil.

Its all driven by Wallstreet economics.


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[davekc]

Have to look a little deeper than that. 20 percent of the workforce would only represent a small portion of it. You have to look at everything tied to the military personal to defense contractors. Then, you must follow the impact to every other business that purchases and sells items to foreign countries. That would include just about any type of manufacturing. Many companies employ few if any people in a foreign nation yet a large percentage of their business is items or intellectual properties sold overseas. 50 years ago, total isolation might have worked, but since we are in a global economy, the US financial system would collapse if we were to try that now.

Probably should add another driving factor. We are 17 TRILLION in debt. Foreign countries are holding roughly 15 percent of that debt. We can't pay it back. We are only paying the interest. So, yep it is about the money.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Dave,

Are you seriously making the argument, that people should either kill or get themselves killed for your 401k?

I was needling you before, but wow you really are a war profiteer.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Were actually about 90 trillion in debt. Almost none of it is held outside the US.

Wars don't create wealth they destroy it. If wars created wealth we should voluntarily scuttle our Navy and bomb our own airforce bases.

When the US defualts it will be very bad for wallstreet and about six months of discomfort for us, but a war isn't going to pay the debt anyway just create more of it.

7 trillion of your 17 number is actually held by the FED, in various instruments.

 

[davekc]

Total isolationism would effect 401's, but would only be a small byproduct of a much larger issues.
Simply put, what you are or what I think you are proposing would collapse the US economy.
As mentioned, that doesn't mean you support going out and killing people, but it would be naive to think it is a zero sum game.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Dave,

Last time I checked the "nuetral" countries citicens were doing much better than us. Belgium, Switzerland the 2 most famous.

Not allowing our Governemnt to be run by and for multinational corporations wouldn't colapse the economy. Strong economies are built by small bussinesses, crushing the multinationals would have the opposite effect actually.

The reason we have had a jobless recovery is because the multinational companies you love so much have had so much competition restricting regulation passed that the economy can't grow. Economies by grow by innovative small bussiness.

Let me simplify it for you, if 20% of your income come from business A and 80% comes from business B, only a fool would invest in A at the expense of B.

The US is driven by small bussiness always has. The reason our economy has been in the ****ter for so long is the Multinationals that you so much love are at war with small bussiness.

If you actually believe what you said in your last post, it sounds like you watch to much CNBC, and worse you believe them.

 

[layoutshooter]

"My source or the German destroyer sinking was "The Rise and Fall of the third Riech" - I read it in another book also but I don't remember the name of the vessel. The incident was not publicised by either side. I believe the first public mention of it was in Shires book. Anyway there were several reported incidents with submarines. But the US side of the story in those incidents is "dubious" at best because the Kriegsmarine was under orders from der furor not to engage us shipping.

Hitler did not want the US in the war and published an order to the Kriegsmarine that they not attack US ships and that they not fire back if fired upon. The order was recinded by 1941."


I know that the USS Rubin James was sunk by a German U boat prior to the US entry into the war. I am not aware of any US ship sinking a German destroyer.

While I MAY agree that some of our stories prior WWII may be dubious. they are NO where as dubious as anything that Hitler may have said. FDR was a racist, socialist piece of sewer scum to sure be, but Hitler made FDR look like a choir boy.

German Uboats attacked US merchant shipping on a regular basis prior to our entry into the war because we were shipping arms and supplies to England. I BELIEVE, but may be wrong, that the USS Rubin James was the first US war ship sunk by a Uboat.

 

[EASYTRADER]

Layout,

you've missed my point. But its a side issue anyway. WW2 like the rest was fought for economic reasons that had nothing to do with the average person, it was another wallstreet war.

WW2 unlike the rest of them at least had a sound moral component. Hitler was in fact a total wacko, who needed killing.

But if it had not been for France and Brittian attacking Germany economically begining with BIsmarc, Hitler never would have risen to power in the first place.

The EU with the US's help is currently doing to Russia what France and Brittian did to Germany. To cause WW1.

There is no balance in the news media in the US at all its all news geared in favor of multinational corporations. Everythign I've seen our governemnt do in. That last 40 years has been to crush freedom in favor of corportism.

This Ukrain deal is another piece of the puzzle.

Don't forget Multinational corporations put Hitler and FDR in power.

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[davekc]

Dave,

Last time I checked the "nuetral" countries citicens were doing much better than us. Belgium, Switzerland the 2 most famous.

Not allowing our Governemnt to be run by and for multinational corporations wouldn't colapse the economy. Strong economies are built by small bussinesses, crushing the multinationals would have the opposite effect actually.

The reason we have had a jobless recovery is because the multinational companies you love so much have had so much competition restricting regulation passed that the economy can't grow. Economies by grow by innovative small bussiness.

Let me simplify it for you, if 20% of your income come from business A and 80% comes from business B, only a fool would invest in A at the expense of B.

The US is driven by small bussiness always has. The reason our economy has been in the ****ter for so long is the Multinationals that you so much love are at war with small bussiness.

If you actually believe what you said in your last post, it sounds like you watch to much CNBC, and worse you believe them.

You can't compare the numbers. You are trying to take for example Switzerland with a population of say 8 million, and trying to use that economy as a basis of argument for the US which has a population of 317 million. One doesn't have to watch any tv to know "that dog don't hunt".
As mentioned, maybe the idea might have worked 50 years ago, but we don't have enough small business or the capital to come close to supporting our economy in that fashion. Take out the majority of foreign trade, and half of your small businesses go away. Can't have both.
Can't even imagine how you would start to address the current debt we have?
As mentioned, 17 TRILLION in debt and still borrowing and we can't pay the principle now.
I'll throw one other recent thing in. Look at everything on the local and state level with things going south just a premise of a military base closing. Same thing when you pull certain industries out of a region. At one time it could have been a "woulda, coulda, should've", but we are long past that now.