this church is so wrong

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't know how they don't lose their tax exempt status as they surely are not a church at all.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
It is amazing how these people find each other, makes u wonder where they work, where they grew up and are they related to Nitwit Pelosi and Weary Reed, aaaamen brothers and sisters,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D:eek:
 

Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
I find them sad. It makes people who don't know, assume all Christians are like that.

Dale


Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well for you guys who are first amendment advocates, welcome to the real world. It's a b*tch isn't it?

They are a church by IRS standards, those are the guys in the black suits that can determine that stuff. There is a strict guideline on what constitute a church and what doesn't and the IRS is the only one who can not recognize the church on the federal level because they espouse to the Baptist philosophy.

If they have laws passed against them, specific laws that target their behavior, then that is well a problem for all of us because they starts the ball rolling for other restrictions and I know many of you don't like those nasty restrictions.

NO doubt they are scum, but like that town that actually did something, people need to get up and do something about it - not a violent thing because we live in a soft society but protesting them, etc...

Investigating what?

Their right to exercise freedom of expression and speech?

Of course their twisted take on religion is bad for most to take but it is theirs and until there is a movement within the Baptist community at large to actually distance themselves and maybe participate - legally - to drown them out from the places they protest AND a concerted effort to stop getting the media to cover their stories, they will continue onward.

It is like the guy in Florida that wrote a book for Pedophiles, he was arrested and going to be tried in Florida courts because he wrote a book from the information I read on the case. This is actually a first amendment issue and has been covered by the SC a few times, I think that Larry Flynt guy was one of the people who went to the SC with the issue. The book doesn't contain pictures, it is a guide and what is described as nothing more than a piece of opinion (although very sick) but under Florida's laws it is child pron.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
What if, every time there was going to be such a funeral that these people were going to protest, the cemetery rented the whole property to the family. That would allow them to exclude the protesters. They could still allow other families who were also having funerals at the time, and individuals coming to visit a grave site, but they could, by virtue of having rented the cemetery (maybe for $1), exclude anyone they wished.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
There's a whole host of problems with that one. Cemeteries are normally public places, and publicly accessible, so it would be very difficult in most cases to close it off and rent it out to a private party, while at the same time pick and choose who they allow in. If it were that easy to get around discrimination laws, lots of places would be doing it. There's also the pesky problem of obtaining permission from the burial plot owners, or their estates, to allow them to be rented out. Good luck with that.

There are two categories of cemeteries, public and private. A public cemetery is one used by the general community, a neighborhood, or a church, while a private cemetery is one used only by a family or a small portion of the community. However, public use, and not ownership, is what determines whether a cemetery is public.

So, a cemetery, even though privately owned or maintained, would be a public cemetery if it is open, under reasonable regulations, to the use of the public for the burial of the dead. A cemetery, though privately owned, is properly classified as a “public cemetery” where it consists of a number of burial plots or sites sold and for sale to the public. Conversely, a family burying ground has been defined by statute as one in which no lots are sold to the public and in which interments are restricted to a group of persons related to each other by blood or marriage.

So, even if a cemetery is privately owned, but is a public cemetery, it cannot be closed off and rented out to a private party. Besides, that's just creepy, man.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
Westboro Baptist Church to picket funerals in Tucson



anyone know what laws congress passed against this particular church?
first responded benefits?
school lunches?
don't ask don't tell repealed?
healthcare?

maybe these folks need to be investigated.

State of Arizona passed an ordinance the other day that the protesters must stay at least 100yards from the funeral procession or out of site. I don't think the fed's have done anything yet. All the fed's want to do now is carry guns. If they shoot like they talk they will be more dangerous than the others.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I think passing laws is the wrong thing to do, these guys have a right to be there and if we are to target every group who wants to gather and protest, then our rights will end up being a problem when we want to do so.

A solution is calling in the Patriot Guard

But alas, they won't be there. They explained why on their website and maybe other groups will fill in for them.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
So, even if a cemetery is privately owned, but is a public cemetery, it cannot be closed off and rented out to a private party. Besides, that's just creepy, man.
Public parks can be rented, and people excluded, and they're public places. So what's the difference?
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
So, even if a cemetery is privately owned, but is a public cemetery, it cannot be closed off and rented out to a private party. Besides, that's just creepy, man.
Public parks can be rented, and people excluded, and they're public places. So what's the difference?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The difference is, the law says parks can, cemeteries can't.
I don't know of any state or national parks that can be rented in their entirety, but a lot of city parks allow at least a portion of the park to be rented for exclusive use, like covered picnic areas, BBQ grills, athletic areas. But cemeteries are different.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Turtle, I THINK you might be wrong on one thing. I think that church owned cemeteries are private property. The Church is, church owned schools and property is, why not the cemetery? The church could allow or deny access as they see fit. There is no right to trespass on private property that I am aware of.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Church cemeteries are absolutely on private property. But again, it is public use rather than ownership which determines whether a cemetery is public.

It depends on whether the church provided burial plots to the public, including their own church members. Most cemeteries are located on private land, actually, be it land owned by a church, a private individual, or a corporation. There is a difference between a private cemetery and a privately owned or managedcemetery. A private cemetery is one where only family members, and those related by marriage, may be buried there. No plots are made available to the public. Many public cemeteries are privately owned and/or managed, but are still public cemeteries, and a church is a good example of that. A few churches have cemeteries which are truly private, despite people buried there not all being related by blood or marriage, but those are very, very rare, and can only be established in certain ways. Generally, these are relatively newly established churches (or rather, churches newly established in new locations).

A "dedication" of land for a particular use is an intentional appropriation of land by the owner to some proper public use. The essence of a dedication for public use is that it shall be for the use of the public at large. A private or family cemetery, or rights incident to it, can be established or acquired only by:


  • a means, other than dedication, which is legally sufficient to accomplish the creation or a transfer of an interest in real property, or

  • an appropriation pursuant to the provisions of an applicable statute.
Meaning, if a church just starts burying its members out there without a formal dedication that restricts access, and those buried out there are not all related by blood or marriage, then it's a public cemetery, and they cannot come along later and change the dedication.


Property dedicated for use by the general public as a cemetery and which continues to serve that public purpose is:


  • not susceptible to ownership,

  • cannot be alienated, and

  • is not subject to prescription.

In the absence of any authorized exercise of the power of eminent domain, when a tract of land has been dedicated as a cemetery, it is perpetually devoted to the burial of the dead and may not be appropriated to any other purpose. The land owner, either the present land owner or some future land owner, has no right to recover the use of the land for any enjoyment or purpose of his/her own. The owner can do nothing which interferes with the use of the land as a cemetery. He/she cannot restrict the rights of relatives and friends to visit and care for the graves.

The dedication of a public cemetery is a real right in the nature of an irrevocable covenant running with the land. It is an implied contractual relationship that binds the owner, and is irrevocable.

Many churches have various restrictions in their bylaws for the cemetery, like who may be buried there. Some only allow church members to be buried there, others, especially churches in rural areas, allow anyone within the community to be buried there. Most of the latter will only allow church members to reserve plots ahead of time, tho. But anyone can visit graves there.

There are many old churches that have been sold off to private individuals and are no longer used as churches. Often the old church building gets torn down and a house is built in its place. The cemetery remains as a cemetery though, as once land has been dedicated as a public cemetery, it stays that way forever except in certain rare circumstances. So if you buy a property that has an old church with a cemetery on the land, you cannot just dig up the graves and relocate them at your will, nor can you prevent people from visiting the graves.

Once a cemetery, always a cemetery. And unless it's a private cemetery as classified by statute, it's a public cemetery, no matter who owns it.

Even if the cemetery is really old and he access road or path is overgrown with brush and trees, the owner cannot bar access to those wishing to visit the cemetery. All states, as far as I know, have laws similar to the Virginia law which lays it out. It applies to private individual, corporations, and churches.

Code of Virginia § 57-27.1 - Access to cemeteries located on private property; cause of action for injunctive relief; applicability.

A. Owners of private property on which a cemetery or graves are located shall have a duty to allow ingress and egress to the cemetery or graves by (i) family members and descendants of deceased persons buried there; (ii) any cemetery plot owner; and (iii) any person engaging in genealogy research, who has given reasonable notice to the owner of record or to the occupant of the property or both. The landowner may designate the frequency of access, hours and duration of the access and the access route if no traditional access route is obviously visible by a view of the property. The landowner, in the absence of gross negligence or willful misconduct, shall be immune from liability in any civil suit, claim, action, or cause of action arising out of the access granted pursuant to this section.

B. The right of ingress and egress granted to persons specified in subsection A shall be reasonable and limited to the purposes of visiting graves, maintaining the gravesite or cemetery, or conducting genealogy research. The right of ingress and egress shall not be construed to provide a right to operate motor vehicles on the property for the purpose of accessing a cemetery or gravesite unless there is a road or adequate right-of-way that permits access by a motor vehicle and the owner has given written permission to use the road or right-of-way of necessity.

C. Any person entering onto private property to access a gravesite or cemetery shall be responsible for conducting himself in a manner that does not damage the private lands, the cemetery or gravesites and shall be liable to the owner of the property for any damage caused as a result of his access.

D. Any person denied reasonable access under the provisions of this section may bring an action in the circuit court where the property is located to enjoin the owner of the property from denying the person reasonable ingress and egress to the cemetery or gravesite. In granting such relief, the court may (i) set the frequency of access, hours and duration of the access and (ii) award reasonable attorney fees and costs to the person denied such access.

E. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any deed or other written instrument that creates or reserves a cemetery or gravesite on private property.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Wonder what AZ laws are? Our church cemetery has fences and locking gates. Don't know what that means either. Don't know what MI law is.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Sadly, a lot of cemeteries, including church cemeteries, have fences and gates, due to vandals and such. I would imagine AZ and MI laws are the same, where they can restrict access in a reasonable manner, but cannot bar it completely. It's only polite, and required by law, that permission of the land owner be obtained before going onto the property at any times the general public isn't also granted general access.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Sadly, a lot of cemeteries, including church cemeteries, have fences and gates, due to vandals and such. I would imagine AZ and MI laws are the same, where they can restrict access in a reasonable manner, but cannot bar it completely. It's only polite, and required by law, that permission of the land owner be obtained before going onto the property at any times the general public isn't also granted general access.

I think our fences are there to keep the "residents" of that cemetery in their proper places!!
 
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