The Sins Of The Fathers ...

[RLENT]

... or something:

Judge's son killed himself at Las Vegas Mormon temple | Las Vegas Review-Journal

 

[Turtle]

... or something:

Not being one to accept the blame for the sins of my own father, I'm gonna go with the "or something" until and unless something more concrete develops.

Judge Milan D. Smith Jr., of El Segundo, Calif., sent this statement by email this morning to fellow judges of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

“Dear Colleagues, I write to the court family at the request of Jay and Dianna Bybee.

“From the time he was a very young man, Jay and Dianna's son Scott has suffered from severe depression. Over the years, Jay and Dianna have sought the best professional advice and treatments available for Scott, and have done all else they could as loving parents to help Scott cope with his struggles. Yesterday evening, however, Scott's sufferings became too great, and he took his own life.

“While Jay and Dianna mourn for Scott, and grieve for their own loss, they are grateful that he is finally released from his sufferings. They have faith that he is in a better place. It will take time for Jay, Dianna, and their other family members, to begin the healing process, but they will be grateful for your prayers and good wishes on their behalf.”

 

[RLENT]

Not being one to accept the blame for the sins of my own father, I'm gonna go with the "or something" until and unless something more concrete develops.

Acceptance of blame isn't the initial premise ...

It's being the (willing/unwilling and/or knowing/unknowing) effect of the sins of the father ...

Has absolutely nothing to do with "acceptance" ...

 

[Turtle]

Acceptance of blame isn't the initial premise ...

It's being the (willing/unwilling and/or knowing/unknowing) effect of the sins of the father ...

Has absolutely nothing to do with "acceptance" ...

I'm still going with the "or something" rather than to try and politicize the suicide of a young man without any evidence that the sins of the father had anything whatsoever to do with it, knowingly or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly, particularly in light of where that concept comes from in the Bible and how it is applied. You are certainly free to do as you wish.

 

[RLENT]

I'm still going with the "or something" rather than to try and politicize the suicide of a young man without any evidence that the sins of the father had anything whatsoever to do with it, knowingly or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly, particularly in light of where that concept comes from in the Bible

Well, in this case I'm referring to Exodus 20:5 ...

As to the evidence aspect, it's more of a metaphysical thang ...

and how it is applied.

The premise is mentioned in one form or another in a number of places in the Bible ...

The manner in which the premise operates varies by which specific passage is being referred to.

In this particular instance I guess one could say that it's roughly analogous to "karma" ... ("what goes around comes around" or "that which you sow you shall reap")

You are certainly free to do as you wish.

And you ...

 

[Turtle]

Well, in this case I'm referring to Exodus 20:5 ...

Where the sins of the father do indeed get passed down to his descendants, but only those sins involving breaking the covenant with God ("those who hate me"). You could (and likely will) argue that his father did exactly that, but I personally wouldn't speak for God in such matters.

As to the evidence aspect, it's more of a metaphysical thang ...

Possibly, but to me, I think trashing out a young man's suicide with "the sins of the father" because you hate the father is a little, for lack of a better word, scummy.

In this particular instance I guess one could say that it's roughly analogous to "karma" ... ("what goes around comes around" or "that which you sow you shall reap")

Precisely... this 26 year old didn't sign a single torture memo. He has no karma which deserves this, nor did he sow anything. What his father did had nothing to do with his son.

And you ...

And I did.

 

[RLENT]

Where the sins of the father do indeed get passed down to his descendants, but only those sins involving breaking the covenant with God ("those who hate me"). You could (and likely will) argue that his father did exactly that, but I personally wouldn't speak for God in such matters.

Alright.

I really have no need to speak for God - it appears that He has spoken for Himself.

In any event, the passage does say what it does say ... it's up to each individual to consider (or not) how it might apply ... or not ...

Possibly, but to me, I think trashing out a young man's suicide with "the sins of the father" because you hate the father is a little, for lack of a better word, scummy.

Trashing out a young man's suicide ?

How does one do that exactly ?

By simply observing that conduct of a father might have somehow had an effect on the life and death of his son ?

Precisely... this 26 year old didn't sign a single torture memo.

Yes ... but what did he do ?

The answer is most likely: Who knows ?

Certainly not I.

He has no karma which deserves this, nor did he sow anything.

Really ?

I was unaware that you were such an expert and authority on the conduct and activities - known and unknown - of the young Bybee ...

Now ... what was that you were saying about not personally speaking for God in such matters ?

What his father did had nothing to do with his son.

Might wanna explore the possibilities in that regard a little further ... just let your mind go wild ...

 

[aquitted]

Exod 20;5 is taken out of context. get a Strongs cocordance to look up the meanig of the words. Also if you read 20 verse before and 20 verses after (20/20 being perfect vision) you can stay in context and see what God almighty is saying. Like the word "Jealous doesn't mean God is insecure.

 

[paullud]

... or something:

Judge's son killed himself at Las Vegas Mormon temple | Las Vegas Review-Journal

Quite a stretch but I guess the ability to feel good about attacking someone using the death of their child outweighed being decent.

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[RLENT]

Exod 20;5 is taken out of context. get a Strongs cocordance to look up the meanig of the words. Also if you read 20 verse before and 20 verses after (20/20 being perfect vision) you can stay in context and see what God almighty is saying. Like the word "Jealous doesn't mean God is insecure.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion ... and, of course, your own understanding ...

 

[RLENT]

Quite a stretch but I guess the ability to feel good about attacking someone using the death of their child outweighed being decent.

I wasn't aware that I had attacked anyone ... but only that I noted one possible explanation for the event ... while allowing that there might be many ...

 

[Turtle]

Trashing out a young man's suicide ?

How does one do that exactly ?

By starting a thread in a forum associating a suicide with the sins of the father, without providing any evidence that the two are connected.

I think Paullud summed it up quite nicely.

By simply observing that conduct of a father might have somehow had an effect on the life and death of his son ?

Which I observingly disagreed with.

Yes ... but what did he do ?

The answer is most likely: Who knows ?

Certainly not I.

So you're just guessing that there might be some connection.

Really ?

I was unaware that you were such an expert and authority on the conduct and activities - known and unknown - of the young Bybee ...

I'm not. But the absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence exists, nor should one assume it does. Fact is, I know of very few suicides are the result of what one's father did. I know of none, actually.

Now ... what was that you were saying about not personally speaking for God in such matters ?

I said, "I'm gonna go with the "or something" until and unless something more concrete develops."

Might wanna explore the possibilities in that regard a little further ... just let your mind go wild ...

Exploring the possibilities is one thing, stating them as real and valid reasons for the suicide of another is something else altogether.

 

[Turtle]

I wasn't aware that I had attacked anyone ... but only that I noted one possible explanation for the event ... while allowing that there might be many ...

You attacked the father by declaring he sinned, and directly connected that sin to his son's suicide with the colon after the "something," which left no other possibilities, much less many of them.

 

[RLENT]

By starting a thread in a forum associating a suicide with the sins of the father, without providing any evidence that the two are connected.

... pondering the possibility that a suicide might be associated with the sins of the father ...

I think Paullud summed it up quite nicely.

Of course you do - he apparently agrees with you.

Which I observingly disagreed with.

Perhaps a better phrasing on my part would have been:

"By simply pondering that conduct of a father might have somehow had an effect on the life and death of his son ?"

So is it your position that it is an impossibility that the conduct of a parent could have an effect on the life and death of their child ?

Quite the novel position if so ...

So you're just guessing that there might be some connection.

No, I am considering the possibility that there might be ...

No guess involved ...

I'm not. But the absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence exists, nor should one assume it does.

And the absence of (known) evidence doesn't preclude the possibility that (unknown) evidence does exist ...

Nor does it mean that one should assume that unknown evidence doesn't exist.

Fact is, I know of very few suicides are the result of what one's father did. I know of none, actually.

Does that mean that there are no suicides whatsoever that are the result of what one's father did ?

Absence of observation isn't conclusive of non-existence ...

I said, "I'm gonna go with the "or something" until and unless something more concrete develops."

Fine by me ...

But that's a duck and deflection of the question I actually asked.

You declared:

"He has no karma which deserves this, nor did he sow anything."

Seems to be a pretty absolute statement ... and rather presumptuous (IMO) for someone who claims they would prefer not to speak for God ...

Exploring the possibilities is one thing, stating them as real and valid reasons for the suicide of another is something else altogether.

Glad you can see that.

 

[RLENT]

You attacked the father by declaring he sinned,

Did I ?

I guess I missed the declarative sentence where that occurred.

and directly connected that sin to his son's suicide with the colon after the "something,"

See above ...

which left no other possibilities, much less many of them.

Wrong ... "or something" implies and allows an infinite number of possibilities ...

Please don't make up and put attribute to me things which I haven't actually written in the post you're commenting on ...

I know that you don't much like it ... and neither do I ...

 

[Turtle]

Perhaps a better phrasing on my part would have been:

"By simply pondering that conduct of a father might have somehow had an effect on the life and death of his son ?"

Even better would have been to include that very sentiment in the OP. For clarity's sake.

So is it your position that it is an impossibility that the conduct of a parent could have an effect on the life and death of their child ?

Of course not.

And the absence of (known) evidence doesn't preclude the possibility that (unknown) evidence does exist ...

Nor does it mean that one should assume that unknown evidence doesn't exist.

Obviously. The problem comes when pure speculation is presented as something other than pure speculation.

But that's a duck and deflection of the question I actually asked.

You declared:

"He has no karma which deserves this, nor did he sow anything."

Seems to be a pretty absolute statement ... and rather presumptuous (IMO) for someone who claims they would prefer not to speak for God ...

It's not a duck at all. It is a presumption, however, presumed because you offered no karma or sown seeds from which to draw a conclusion.

 

[Turtle]

Did I ?

I guess I missed the declarative sentence where that occurred.

See Thread Title

Wrong ... "or something" implies and allows an infinite number of possibilities ...

Please don't make up and put attribute to me things which I haven't actually written in the post you're commenting on ...

I know that you don't much like it ... and neither do I ...

You did write it, specifically. True enough the "or something" implies and allows for an infinite number of possibilities, but only right up to the point where you slapped a colon at the end of it. A colon is used to explain or start an enumeration (to mention separately, a list, specify one by one). You enumerated no other possibilities, and thus allowed for none.

 

[asjssl]

Now were arguing specific use of punctuation..

The punctuation Gestapo ...


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[Turtle]

Now were arguing specific use of punctuation..

When it denotes a specific meaning, yes. He's arguing the pedantics of infinite possibilities when his own pedantics preclude any such possibility. Can't have it both ways.

The punctuation Gestapo ...

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you need to inform the whole world that fact by ignorantly berating it.

 

[asjssl]

When it denotes a specific meaning, yes. He's arguing the pedantics of infinite possibilities when his own pedantics preclude any such possibility. Can't have it both ways.


Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you need to inform the whole world that fact by ignorantly berating it.

You just have to be right...and have the last word...

Thought moderators were to be nice..not always talking down to everyone??
Your smarter.. you win AGAIN!!
#punctuationgestapo

YOU NEED ANOTHER HOBBY

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