The real bottom line in WG

[LDB]

An interesting point was brought up about the true bottom line of WG versus regular units. With the significantly greater investment and the potentially greater deadhead on loads does WG really pay that much better than the regular fleet?

Even without reefer capability there are thousands and thousands of dollars tied up in lift gate, pallet jack, straps, blankets, dollies etc. to run a WG unit. I believe WG requires 13k payload capability as well and for many units that would require thousands more for a lift axle.

So with maybe $15,000 additional investment at a minimum and all the deadhead how is it really? Talking to friends in WG they had a 110 mile run paying $650. That's an amazing rate. After their DH to the pickup site and the DH to where they had to be for the following load the net for the run was $1.78 per mile. That's still a good rate but if you separated out FSC, loading fee, unloading fee, inside delivery fee then the base rate isn't much above a regular unit.

Soooooo... until this thread goes way off target and I lock it, which I really don't want to happen so follow that sage advice if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all, let's discuss WG, Special Services or whatever your company calls their special division and how it really boils down.

Leo
truck 4958

Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[davekc]

This is probably a better location for this post.

It is true that the WG drivers make more revenue.
With that comes alot higher investment and ongoing costs.
By the time you weigh the investments and additional costs, they are essentially running for the same thing. Of course that is my experience with them.
"Been there, done that"
I think it is more of a "calling" than any type of financial reward.
Again, look at all the ads from owners looking for white glove drivers.

It comes down to your investment being a third to double a typical expediter. Because of that, your insurance, maintenance and deadhead are considerably higher. Running numerous times through the year for reefer certification, is all on the owner dime. Not to mention all the lost time ect.That is one example and I could go on and on.
Not every load is a WG load.
So the question becomes, are you running for over twice what the typical expediter is doing on every run? Not hardly.
Net revenue over a 5 year period doesn't show it either.
Pretty simple math, that is why it seems like more of a calling than any type of financial reward.

These are just my opinions and observations based on my own experiences. Rich's experience tells me little has changed since my dealings with it.


With regards to Panther special services, it is different than WG. It pays a higher rate without needing all the expensive accessories, like reefers,tags, and liftgates.
You can have them, but they are not a requirement. Being able to pass a thorough government background check is mandatory.

Davekc
owner
21 years

 

[RichM]

There is something else to consider. You run the risk of getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift gate loads.

Back in May there was a tragic accident for a FDX W/G driver who as a result will probably never drive again.This happened during a difficult unload. I know because I loaded the freight from the shipper and almost lost a finger,I did loose a nail. This was due to a very tight clearance.

In addition to personal injury you run the risk of a cargo claim.If freight falls off a lift gate not only will you be responsible for $2k but you may loose the W/G approval.Then all of your additional expenses are for naught. I am not trying to downgrade joining W/G but just trying to make everyone aware of negative things that could happen.

 

[The Gibster]

This is a great topic!

Like Dave says, it's a 'calling' rather than a standard, albeit upscale business plan. But that end result is a more satisfying work experience - you perceive doing more for the customer than the average expedite load. That personal satisfaction can't easily be measured in dollars and cents.

Before we started in the biz we sought out every expediter we could find in truck stops and restaurants. Asked a lot of questions, and met a lot of great people. Often trying to be recruited to drive one of their rigs, Donna and I were drawn to the 'opportunity' to make the $1.78/mile. At least with WG we had the opportunity.

When we left our last carrier, we asked ourselves while going down the road, "What can we do right now, with this truck, to generate more revenue"? We went with the carrier we are with now because they have a bona-fide 'opportunity' to make more than with our other carrier.

Granted, 5 years down the road all the other things may play out, like maintenance, down-time, and other expenses; but we get that 'good-job' feeling by our Hip Pocket National Bank amount.

I don't know that you can take out FSC, or other expenses and kinda gloss over $1.78/mile. And no offense meant Leo, I just believe we relish in what our settlement amount is at the end of the week. That in turn drives us to that 'calling' Dave mentions.

Great topic folks! Great topic!

The Gibster

 

[davekc]

There is something else to consider. You run the risk of getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift gate loads.

Good point.
Something I tend to over look since I wasn't personally driving.
I carried extra disability insurance for these teams.
A driver if going it alone, has to absorb yet another cost if he owns the truck.
Or like many, gamble that nothing will happen.
While not life threatening, we had several injuries that were related to live unloads.
There are alot of angles to look at prior to going down this path.
I think alot of drivers are becoming more and more educated as to what is involved.
As mentioned in another post, this is why you see their requirements lowered to let anyone in that has the correct truck.
Standards aren't the same as they use to be.
They simply can't find enough drivers to make that type of investment for the return.
Supply and demand.
It is a "calling" and that's about it.
Certainly a satisfaction there for doing the unusual loads.

Davekc
owner
21 years

 

[RobA]

>There is something else to consider. You run the risk of
>getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift
>gate loads.
>
>


Is FedEx White Glove intended to compete with the moving companies?
It was often the Special Products divisons of moving companies who hauled the computers and other electronic equipment.
What kinds of cargo do the "White-Glovers" haul to make use of the lift gates and reefers?

 

[terryandrene]

>Is FedEx White Glove intended to compete with the moving
>companies?
>It was often the Special Products divisons of moving
>companies who hauled the computers and other electronic
>equipment.
>What kinds of cargo do the "White-Glovers" haul to make use
>of the lift gates and reefers?

Rob: The biggest difference, as I see it, is the White Glove and other expedite carriers' special handling divisions difer fron the large van lines is because of time sensitivity, door-to-door and exclusive use feature that the expediters offer. The types of cargo hauled is pretty much the same.

Terry

 

[raceman]

I sure do like that wheel Gibster. Do you have to order it? I will never drive white Glove so drop me a personal note telling me how to find a cool wheel like that. I think you mentioned something to me before but how about another note.

Sorry Leo, I had to screw up the thread but I love that wheel.

Raceman
OTR O/O

 

[BigRed32771]

>>There is something else to consider. You run the risk of
>>getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift
>>gate loads.
>>
>>
>
>
>Is FedEx White Glove intended to compete with the moving
>companies?
>It was often the Special Products divisons of moving
>companies who hauled the computers and other electronic
>equipment.
>What kinds of cargo do the "White-Glovers" haul to make use
>of the lift gates and reefers?

RichM was sent out as a helper on a job I got a couple of months ago (same week as the incident he mentioned). We were dispatched to move a 550# computer but discovered on arrival that it was actually 2300#. We called for more help, and waited about 2 hours for another truck to show up with 2 more people and we managed to maneuver the beastie down a ramp (which we had braced in the middle as we were advised that when the same beastie was brought in a few years back the ramp had bowed as it was pushed up), and into the truck. We had to use my 2500# capacity liftgate as a loading ramp because there was no leveling mechanism on the dock and it was about a foot or so below my box.

More recently I spent a day with a couple of other trucks moving the MIS department of Tulane University to a new location in a building about 5 miles away. Made 4 trips back and forth. My initial comment on arrival and discovering the nature of the job (one of my big complaints is that we often don't know enough about the job before we take it, and frequently not until we arrive at pickup do we really know what we've agreed to do) was that the sign on the side of my truck does not say "Allied Van Lines." But we did the job. Finished the day late and very very tired. Ironically, if the same contractor called and wanted us to do the same sort of thing on the same terms somewhere else, I'd probably take it. For one day of not many miles driving but a lot of work, I got paid fairly well. The one key on this was that I didn't have to do the loading and unloading, just run the liftgate and do the securing. Contractor had another whole crew of movers to to the pack and load part of the job.

Two days later we showed up for a pickup in downtown New Orleans (literally only a few blocks from where we had delivered the Tulane stuff) for what was described as a quick pickup and run to Memphis for delivery the same day. On arrival I was taken to the fourth floor of a building and shown 16 pieces of freight, ranging in size from 11 footlocker sized bins to 4 pallets of shrink wrapped crap, and one equipment case that was about 2'x4'x6' and weighed 1200# (so I was told later, I still think it was closer to 2000#). When I asked if there was anyone in the freight receiving and shipping dept that would or could move the stuff to the loading dock (another problem since it was only about pick-up bed high, not truck high) I was told no. I was to get everything down from the 4th floor and into the truck. First thing I did was call dispatch. When I described the situation, the dispatcher said, "Well, that sounds like a White Glove job instead of regular express. Don't do anything till I call you back." I sat in the 30-minute loading zone at the dock for 45 minutes before dispatch called back and said it's now a WG load, your pay is doubled (paraphrase) and you can go get it. Took about 2 hours to get all pieces down, had to borrow a pallet jack for the big case because mine could only pick it up from the side and it wouldn't fit through the door on the freight elevator unless picked up from the end. Had to find their dockplate (Oh, yeah, we forgot we even had that the guy said) in order to get stuff onto the liftgate and up into the truck. All in all, the job turned into a pain in the keister, but the way I look at it if I took the haul for about $600, and it jumped to $1200 when it turned WG, then I was paid about $600 for my labor and the use of my palletjack and liftgate. Do that a couple of times a month and they pay for themselves.

Now, reefer may be another story, but I'll skip it for now. We're still running the numbers.

BigRed32771
5 months experience with FECC/WG and still learning the ropes.

How to tell if a load is really really going to be sucky: First clue, if the dispatcher prefaces the offer with "We really really need your help on this one...." you can count on it.

 

[davekc]

I can see based on your story Bigred, that it does still have it challenges. I can see where many might get injured in doing this type of work.
As to whether it is profitable within the industry depends on what company you are comparing.
It has to be figured that a "regular" run would put another truck 3 to 4 hours ahead of you if it was a regular no touch load.
That may or may not make a difference.
In my case it would depending on the time of day.

Davekc
owner
21 days

 

[LDB]

As long as it isn't belittling anyone on the forum I don't care so much what direction the thread goes. I just put it out to generate some thoughts and comments. I like that wheel too and may look into one for the next truck.

Looking at the thread some more, I in no way think WG isn't a demanding job and I know it takes a certain individual to do it. I have friends that have been in WG about a month now and are really liking it. I just pointed out one of their runs as an example.

It definitely paid more than a standard run but they spent a lot of hours on duty not driving and did a lot of heavy manual labor as well. The on duty hours hit both of them and could effect their logs and ability to accept a following run based on hours available. So they've got a huge monetary investment that paid better but at a substantial physical expense and perhaps in a revenue sense as well depending on what/when the next offer was.

They were heading to a Red Wing store for steel toe shoes after that run. The possibility of injury and resulting losses are also to be factored in as others have mentioned. I didn't think of that part before my original post.

So we're back to it's a good niche and those who do it can rightfully be proud of their work but that still doesn't answer the bottom line question after factoring in all costs and expenses. A very interesting thread so far.

Leo
truck 4958

Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[ATeam]

>An interesting point was brought up about the true bottom
>line of WG versus regular units. With the significantly
>greater investment and the potentially greater deadhead on
>loads does WG really pay that much better than the regular
>fleet?

Leo,

You just stated the central question every prospective White Glove owner/operator or fleet driver must answer for one's self. Diane and I have done the analysis and believe - based on nearly two years of driving experience and our own numbers - that we'll do better as a FedEx CC White Glove team than we'd do in any other sector of the expediting industry; thats as fleet drivers, and as owner operators when our new truck arrives.

>Even without reefer capability there are thousands and
>thousands of dollars tied up in lift gate, pallet jack,
>straps, blankets, dollies etc. to run a WG unit. I believe
>WG requires 13k payload capability as well and for many
>units that would require thousands more for a lift axle.

One minor correction. FedEx CC White Glove Services does run C-units too; 14-foot minimum box size, payloads up to 5,000 lbs. D units must go up to 13,000 lbs, 22-foot minimum box size.

>So with maybe $15,000 additional investment at a minimum and
>all the deadhead how is it really?

I can answer that one only from our own experience. If the Panther advertised rate of $1.25/ loaded mile on a D-unit is what is actually paid (that is my understanding, open to correction), I know of at least one WG team (us) that does significantly better than that on ALL miles. Yes, we have a lot of deadhead, but the loads pay well enough to make the deadhead worth it. Or, if they don't pay well, we decline the loads. That keeps our all-miles figure higher than Panther's loaded miles figure.

Looking also at the fleet averages FedEx publishes for its non-WG D-units, I can say this WG team does better than that as well.

Do we do well enough to justify the investment in a WG truck and required equipment? We believe so, and are putting our money where our mouth is.

Talking to friends in WG
>they had a 110 mile run paying $650. That's an amazing rate.
>After their DH to the pickup site and the DH to where they
>had to be for the following load the net for the run was
>$1.78 per mile. That's still a good rate but if you
>separated out FSC, loading fee, unloading fee, inside
>delivery fee then the base rate isn't much above a regular
>unit.

Single-run examples can be used to make any point one wishes about WG or Special Services (Panther). A comprehensive analysis should be done by each driver or owner/operator to answer the spot-on question you raise.

Prospective new WG drivers are in a better position to do this than prospective new WG owner/operators. They can call several WG fleet owners that advertise in the EO classifieds for WG drivers. The fleet owners have a track record of how their WG trucks and drivers have done. While recruiters can cite fleet averages, fleet owners can talk very specifically about individual trucks and drivers they've run in the past.

Note too, that some FedEx CC fleet owners run both WG and non-WG (surface expedite) trucks in their fleets. Those folks would be the best people to weigh in on the question you raise. They have the real-world experience and numbers on which to base their opinions.

Allow me to enter those fleet owners into evidence that WG glove is a positive choice to make, at least for some. They purchase and equip WG trucks (reefer and dry box) and recruit WG drivers. If they did not belive WG would do better, they would stick to non-WG trucks, would they not?

A comprehensive analysis must include not only the dollar/per mile rate a truck and driver (or team) can produce, but also the dollar/per day.

Because WG trucks are equipped as they are (equipment you pointed out), and drivers have qualifications they do (security clearances, deemed professional enough in an interview to have courriers accompany them in the truck - art loads mostly, and certain types of HAZMAT that require additional training), WG trucks and drivers are eligible to carry more types of freight than non-WG trucks. That means - in theory at least - that a WG truck will receive more offers than a non WG truck.

I beieve it to be fact, not theory but do not wish to argue the point here. I'll meerly state my belief, which is based on personal experience as a WG driver. The facts can be obtained from a recruiter or someone else in the know at FedEx that has access to the WG and non-WG truck run counts for the entire fleet.

What is better; to be a non-WG truck and sitting with no load, or to be a WG truck running a lift gate and furniture pad load at ordinary freight rates?

Those extra charges such as lift gate, pads and straps, inside delivery, labor, debris removal, etc. are called accessorial charges. Some come because of how your truck is equipped. Some come by the sweat of your brow. Both increase the rate per mile on the load. As we see it, throwing in a bit of labor on one or both ends of the load adds to our bottom line. It's rare that time spent providing labor would cause you to lose your next load. It's more the case that time not providing labor at the end of a load is time you'd be sitting waiting for the next one.

It matters little to us if we make our money driving the load or handling the freight. We do both with year-end, bottom-line profitability in mind. Accessorial loads give us the opportunity to boost that number.

Finally, it is not insignificant that Panther II created a special services division to compete head on with FedEx WG. It seems that a number of WG drivers, fleet owners, FedEx WG itself, and most recently Panther Special Services are stating by their actions that they believe the WG/Special Services style of expediting is lucrative enough to be worth the investment.

WG is not for everyone. Work styles (professionalism, willingness to wear a uniform, problem solving abilities at the pickups and deliveries, etc), physical capabilities, up-front money to build and equip WG trucks, and more all enter into the WG analysis.

As I said above, each prospective WG driver or owner/operator must do one's own comprehensive analysis.

 

[ATeam]

>There is something else to consider. You run the risk of
>getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift
>gate loads.
>
>In addition to personal injury you run the risk of a cargo
>claim.If freight falls off a lift gate not only will you be
>responsible for $2k but you may loose the W/G approval.Then
>all of your additional expenses are for naught. I am not
>trying to downgrade joining W/G but just trying to make
>everyone aware of negative things that could happen.

What RichM says is true. It's also true that NO ONE at FedEx CC wants you to put safety second. And it's true that YOU are in total control of the load from pickup to delivery. If you believe you would have to work in an unsafe manner to complete the run, you have the power to advise FedEx of the safety issue and come off the load. It may create a service failure, but if your safety grounds are valid, I can't imagine anyone at FedEx putting your WG glove or driver status in jepordy because of a valid safety action you took.

We were once on a load with another team. We were called in to provide additional labor to unload an E-unit. Even with us and our equipment present, the E-unit driver deemed the work to be unsafe and said so to dispatch. An hour or so later, additional labor and equipment arrived - paid for by dispatch, and ultimately the shipper, I'd guess. We then did a safe unload.

All drivers, WG or otherwise, can do much to enhance their personal safety, and many do. Others take risks that are ill-advised. That's on the driver. To carry RichM's arguement to the extreme, none of us should be in expediting because we might get hurt falling out of the truck, injured in a traffic accident, or catch head lice from the very-used hard-hat the security guard gives us at the gate (we carry our own for that very reason).

I'm not belittling RichM's statement. He's right on. I wish our carriers would do more in safety training. I'd love to have easy and free access to the numerous safety training videos about tire blowouts, dock worker safety, lifting heavy objects, sleep management, driving safety, etc. It's a challenge to find this information on your own.

 

[ATeam]

>There is something else to consider. You run the risk of
>getting hurt when you do inside deliveries/pickups and lift
>gate loads.
>
>In addition to personal injury you run the risk of a cargo
>claim.If freight falls off a lift gate not only will you be
>responsible for $2k but you may loose the W/G approval.Then
>all of your additional expenses are for naught. I am not
>trying to downgrade joining W/G but just trying to make
>everyone aware of negative things that could happen.

What RichM says is true. It's also true that NO ONE at FedEx CC wants you to put safety second. And it's true that YOU are in total control of the load from pickup to delivery. If you believe you would have to work in an unsafe manner to complete the run, you have the power to advise FedEx of the safety issue and come off the load. It may create a service failure, but if your safety grounds are valid, I can't imagine anyone at FedEx putting your WG glove or driver status in jepordy because of a valid safety action you took.

We were once on a load with another team. We were called in to provide additional labor to unload an E-unit. Even with us and our equipment present, the E-unit driver deemed the work to be unsafe and said so to dispatch. An hour or so later, additional labor and equipment arrived - paid for by dispatch, and ultimately the shipper, I'd guess. We then did a safe unload.

All drivers, WG or otherwise, can do much to enhance their personal safety, and many do. Others take risks that are ill-advised. That's on the driver. To carry RichM's arguement to the extreme, none of us should be in expediting because we might get hurt falling out of the truck, injured in a traffic accident, or catch head lice from the very-used hard-hat the security guard gives us at the gate (we carry our own for that very reason).

I'm not belittling RichM's statement. He's right on. I wish our carriers would do more in safety training. I'd love to have easy and free access to the numerous safety training videos about tire blowouts, dock worker safety, lifting heavy objects, sleep management, driving safety, etc. It's a challenge to find this information on your own.

 

[RichM]

Just Curious, What Nation do you belong too? A country has finite borders, made up of various ethinc peoples. Generally a Nation is defined as one particular group such as the Cherokee Nation which is located in the Country of the United States.
I realize this sounds like I am trying to pull your chain but I am just curious as too what part of the USA you belong too Maybe more of us need to explore this Nation possibility,might be government grants coming down.LOL

 

[ATeam]

>They were heading to a Red Wing store for steel toe shoes
>after that run. The possibility of injury and resulting
>losses are also to be factored in as others have mentioned.
>I didn't think of that part before my original post.

That's exactly the proactive safety-enhancing actions I talk about elswhere in this thread. All expediting puts you in places where steel toe shoes are wise; WG expediting even more so. We own and use hard hats, steel toes, safety cones, caution tape, safety glasses, blaze yellow-reflective tape rain gear, bright red signal flags (wide load flags), flashlights with attachable red cones, reflective safety vests, and additional fire extinguishers. Some would call us safety nerds. We've been ridiculed by lumpers that have seen us deploy our safety equipment. That's OK. Better safe than sorry.

>
>So we're back to it's a good niche and those who do it can
>rightfully be proud of their work but that still doesn't
>answer the bottom line question after factoring in all costs
>and expenses. A very interesting thread so far.

I believe I did give you an answer. Financially, for us at least, it's well worth it. The lifstyle benefits are a bonus. Lifestyle benefits that are unique to WG are mostly in the very interesting people you meet on some very interesting loads; people you would not meet hauling general freight.

>
>Leo
>truck 4958
>
>Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you
>like.

 

[LDB]

Ateam, thank you for an in depth and intelligent response. I should have clarified that I meant a WG D unit must scale 13,000 and not 12,600 or something less than 13k.

I agree, in theory since I'm not WG and have no first hand data either way, with your point about the WG truck being usable for both WG and regular freight and thereby potentially getting rolling sooner than a std. unit if a WG load presents itself.

I expect the WG unit to make more both loaded and all miles than a std. unit but question the differential. My motivation for the thread was to stimulate thought and discussion as well as elicit information and facts comparing WG to regular freight taking into consideration the significantly higher cost to play as well as the significantly higher risk of injury while playing. So far it's a great thread. Thanks to everyone for their contributions.

Leo
truck 4958

Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[tec1959]

I'd like to say that I was with Roberts Express/FECC White Glove,I liked being with WG when Roberts Express owned it.I just wanted to say that WG trucks do make more money because of the loads they can carry.I was dispatched from Atl,Ga to oakland,Ca with two 55 gallon drums of paint sealer to finish an exxon plant outside oakland.The wgt was about 3000 lbs that needed to maintain 75 degrees,This load paid to the truck over $5000.Then dispatched to seatle,Wa to load seven empty 55 gallon drums that wgt about 800 lbs that had bad jet fuel,An take to st.charles,La to be cleaned and then retested and cleaned and then they would be refilled for the Air Force,This load paid over $4300 to the truck.With WG trucks you have a chance to pu a load that may need a lift gate,A reefer,Air ride or some type of special handling like inside delivery.We never hauled a food load like some others have said.Most of the loads are light wgt and just needed a little extra care.I was a team driver and we stayed out 4 weeks and In for a week.I have heard that WG does not have alot of them type loads much anymore,With WG you will not do an automotive load because of the lift gate,An you will do alot of Government loads that still pay pretty well.Just my 2 cents guys....

Tec1959...

 

[davekc]

Your post (Ateam) has some valid points, but could have been edited from the 4000 word essay. I am aware that much is your own experiences, but without specific information from both Panther and Fedex, your information is quite misleading.

Again, one doesn't have to look far to realize the difference in investment verses what the return would be. That may change with the addition of being able to do backhauls.

Comparing Panther with your numbers and scenerio are not accurate. Panther contracts are from $1.20 to $1.35 per mile depending on when you signed on and what type of contract. Fuel surcharges tend to be higher based on recent figures supplied on EO.
Additionally, Special Services pays a seperate .30 cents per mile and higher on these loads.
Not really a huge differences in rates. And, like Fedex, not every load is WG or SS. The biggest place is on the investment side. Panther doesn't require age limits once a truck is signed on. Plus, it is not a requirement for reefers,liftgates, and tags. A huge difference in frontend investment and ongoing costs. This is why Panther is so competitive and growing.

White glove can do better in some cases, but many of the EO ads for drivers tell me many are looking for drivers. In most cases it is owner/operators that want out and are trying to find someone to run their truck because they can't sell it. The market is too limited on these units, especially if they overpaid on it. I field calls on a regular basis from WG owners wanting to sell their trucks. Only a couple of ads are from fleet owners. Yes, that tells me alot. Alot of Fedex white glove ads just this week, and not one Panther special services ad in over three months.
They have to meet the same qualifications as Fedex. except Panther requires I believe a year of service prior to be accepted.

As to whether manual labor will cost you a load? Probably not now with Fedex. With Panther, it could. Spending 3 to 4 hours could be costly depending on the time of day. Arriving at three or seven p.m. would make a huge difference. Quite simply, in most cases I would have the truck loaded and gone before you arrived. It wouldn't be until the next day you were moving. Your lumper or handling wages wouldn't likely compete against another load regardless of carrier.
Some of the above depends on whether a carrier or yourself can keep your truck moving.
The bottom line that we agree on is that there is money in special services and white glove. But, why make huge investments when they are not warranted? Of course I am not counting pads,pallet jacks ect. And that doesn't even start to address the safety and disability issues.
As mentioned, it is a "calling" rather than a large windfall.


Davekc
owner
21 years

 

[davekc]

The white glove of the Roberts days are much different than what you see today. Rates were quite different.
You are right, that was when you could make some big money.

Davekc
owner
21 years