The Prime Directive.

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Anyone who's watched Star Trek will know what the prime directive is and the punishment for violating it.
The interference of our world/culture on anothers that doesn't coicide with our way of life.
Countries have to stop thinking thier way is the best way or these wars (Iraq) will never stop.

Another example: Horse meat...It is now illegal to sell for human consumption Trigger in the U.S. and look at the problem in Kentucky now...1,000's of unwanted horses being neglected and abandoned.
Why? Because SOME people think its disgusting.
Like DOG meat poor Lassie for supper nooooo not here. Why? Same thing
People unwilling to accept other peoples culture and way of doing things. Just cause other ethnics immigrate here do they all have to eat steak and Micky D's??
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,

Have you ever read the prime directive? If you are a true trekie (treky) you would have read it in it's true form, not the b*stardized version from the modren trekie (treky). Got to learn about it.

Although you do have a point, but I don't know about the outlaw of horse meat. I mean last time I saw, there were horses still going through windsor and Sarnia, I don't think they were pets. Albeit if we did have a hand in ending that, that's ok seeing it has it origins as a french custom, not canadian and if it that we can't respect some culture that does not respect ours, Parisian culture that is.

But I got to take you to task about your statement "Same thing
People unwilling to accept other peoples culture and way of doing things. Just cause other ethnics immigrate here do they all have to eat steak and Micky D's??" seeing that both the english have look down upon people from India and still do and I found that it happens in Canada also. For some reason you point out this issue but forget one important thing that the US has for the longest time accomidated more cultures than any other country in the world. Even though we are paying for it now under the guise of 'Diversity', for some reaon we still tolerate a non-conformist immigrant population to come here and live without hesitation. No other country, including our great neighbors to the north do anywhere near what we do. Just alone having free legal help for those of Hispanic and Arabic desent by the tax payers while the common citizen has no real means of affording legal representation on the same level should indicate something of the nature of our culture.
 

lanier1

Seasoned Expediter
I don't care what they eat but have you ever gotten a whif of some of those peoples breath? Jeez, it would knock a buzard off a sh*t wagon.

If you think they should be able to eat dog do you also think they should be able to go down to the local shelter and pick some out? I don't think so.

I think I understand what you are saying and don't really disagree with you. I believe in people living their lives how they see fit and as long as what they are doing is not infringeing on others persuit of happiness or causing an unsafe situation for someone else its ok by me. That said, why should every piece of instruction in print or on audio have to be in English AND Spanish. When we go to other countries we should adapt to their customs as well. The difference in our cultures is what makes the world as rich as it is. Its all about respect but that has to go both ways and frankly, all I see is us trying to be politically correct and not hurt anyones "feelings".
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
greg said:
No other country, including our great neighbors to the north do anywhere near what we do. Just alone having free legal help for those of Hispanic and Arabic desent by the tax payers while the common citizen has no real means of affording legal representation on the same level should indicate something of the nature of our culture.

And just what does the U.S do that Canada doesn't? If your referring to the Mexican problem...no Canada doesn't allow that...But they do have a small problem with illegal Jamacians...
And gee I remember when the U.S. sent those ships of boat people (Vietnamese)packing and left them at sea only to be taken into Canada. The Canadian legal aid system also works to help these people...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
There is a lot we do.

The issue at hand is that we do too much in comparison - read the present immigration 'reform' bill in the senate and it illistrates much of what I am talking about - this expands a lot of the things we already give to people who hit our shores.

Canada has been a great country for refugees and people who flee persucution in their homeland, no doubt that it is better than the US, but we still seem to be the perfered country of choice because of our freedoms for the legal immigrant.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg said: but we still seem to be the perfered country of choice because of our freedoms for the legal immigrant.

Why? because your too easy on them!!!


That Immigration Bill is not a good thing...its soft on the Mexican issue and it's going to be expensive.

They should've closed off the border and made deportation easier and should start a program of deportation on a small but steady scale.

In Canada deportation can take years as even illegals have the same rights to the justice system as do citizens.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Here are some improvements they should add to the Immigration Reform Bill:

1. No Welfare Benefits for illegals
2. Revoke the clause that allows citizenship for children of illegals born in the US
3. Jail time for employers of illegal aliens, or anyone providing safe haven for them.
4. No social benefits of any kind for illegal aliens, i.e.: in-state tuition at colleges, social security benefits, free emergency room care, etc.
5. Deny citizenship to aliens that are convicted felons
6. No "Z" visa.

I'm sure there are more things that could be added, but this would at least be a start in the process of discouraging them to come into or remain in the US illegally.

Van Man is right - we make it so easy on them they're crazy not to come up here. Why doesn't Bush just propose statehood for Mexico? At least that way there would be some tax revenue coming from down there.
 

terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
>Have you ever read the prime directive? If you are a true
>trekie (treky) you would have read it in it's true form, not
>the b*stardized version from the modren trekie (treky). Got
>to learn about it.

Greg:

For the record. Some Trekkies hold that a "Trekker" is a "Trekkie" who is embarrassed of being a "Trekkie". The classic stereotype is a clueless Trekkie walking around wearing rubber Spock ears and being held up to public ridicule for his obsession. "Trekker" is usually used as a term for the dedicated Star Trek fan with considerable knowledge of the show.

The term "Trekkie" is sometimes considered derogatory, perhaps because of a perceived parallel to the terms "groupie" or "Hippie".

Some avoid the disagreement by referring to themselves as just "Star Trek fans", or among themselves, as just "fans".
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral
obligation.

The Directive states that members of the Starfleet must not interfere in the internal affairs of another species, or the natural development of pre-warp civilizations, either by direct intervention, or the revelation of technology (including the means to create such technology) to the inhabitants. When studying a planet's civilization, particularly during a planetary survey, the Prime Directive makes it clear that there are to be: "No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space, other worlds, or advanced civilizations..." (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Starfleet officers are required to understand that allowing cultures to develop on their own is an important right and therefore must make any sacrifice to protect cultures from contamination, even at the cost of their own lives.

In all, there are 47 sub-orders in the Prime Directive. (VOY: "Infinite Regress")

Originally the Directive was a shield for primitive worlds. If such a world was in danger, Starfleet had been known to order ships to save that world, provided it could be done without violating the Directive (TOS: "The Paradise Syndrome").

The Directive was later amended, prohibiting Starfleet officers from intervening even if it would result in the extinction of an entire species or the end of all life on a planet or star system. By the 24th century the Federation had begun applying the Prime Directive to warp-capable species, refusing to interfere in internal matters such as the Klingon Civil War


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How about a war? A generations-long conflict that is killing millions. Do we interfere?
(silence)
Now we're less secure in our moral certitude. And what if it's not death. What if it's an oppressive government which is enslaving millions? The Prime Directive serves many purposes. Not the least of which is to protect us. It keeps us from allowing our emotions to overrule our judgement.
— Data, Pulaski, and Picard debating the Prime Directive
Bottom line IMHO should not have interfered in Iraq. Cultures have to take care of themselves.
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.The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous.
— Captain Picard
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Yeah greg your right sorta...we gave Iraq weapons and technology they were not capable of handling. That said thou we violated the prime in the first place by giving them such items.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The Prime Directive defined

OVM,
Ok I understand where you are coming from but you forget some other important things;
The Articles of Confederation a.k.a. the Federation Consitution which govern the prime directive (which prime directive is actually a star fleet thing, separate from the Federation of Planets body politic) is also important document that can’t be left out when you look at the prime directive in the context of specie rights. But also the star trek Articles of Federation (which were unwritten, sort of, until the second or third carnation of star trek) was directly taken the charter of the UN. But the prime directive is all a take off on another author (Roddenberry admitted to this) Robert Heinlein (I think that is how you spell his name) and in his book Space Cadet where the basis for the prime directive was written and better illustrated. In fact if you read any of Heinlein’s early books there is a theme running through them and a few of them are what we need to think about today with the present situation here in the states.

But I digress,

The fact that there was a clear correlation between the Federation of Planets and the UN as purposely written into the star trek genre, you mustn’t forget that there was an intent to have these two interchangeable during the times we faced in the 60’s with Roddenberry’s belief in a one universal governing body (his words again) is the better solution for universe kind.

With that said, if we take a look at the Federation politics and compare that to say the UN Security Council, we see this clear correlation in the form of a body that has its own security force, its own military force (star fleet) and it body politic. The difference lies in the attempt to remedy conflicts; the Federation of Planets has had success where the UN has had no successes in the say the last 55 years.

So this leads us to trying to apply the prime directive to the issue of Iraq. We really can’t say that it is an unwarranted invasion or the prime directive was violated for a couple reasons but I will stick with one. The UN has been trying to control the situation in Iraq for a number of years, stretching back to the Iran-Iraq conflict, it failed. With the UN’s attempts to account for different weapons and the Iraqi leadership ignoring them, we see resolution after resolution being passed (660, 661, 678, 686, 687, 688, 707, 715, 986 and 1284 – oh and 1382) and ignored and finally we have resolution 1441 which was passed unanimously (by that I mean it was passed by both the permanent members, The French Republic, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, The United States of America, People's Republic of China, The Russian Federation and the elected members; Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Guinea, Ireland, Mauritius, Mexico, Norway, Singapore, Syria). Resolution 1441 by no means was to be taken lightly and it literally gave us the green light to go ahead with an invasion of Iraq to enforce the previous 11 resolutions. Later on we hear from Anan that this was against the UN charter (BS, it has some thing to do with Chapter VII of the UN Charter) and we find out that he has allowed the Oil for Food scandal to proliferate. The puzzling thing is France and Russia took part in the scandal but also voted for the resolution that was drafted by the US and UK with the intention of invading Iraq.

The funny thing is genocide is not mentioned in star trek because we didn’t experience Cambodia or Bosnia or Iraq when the original series was written except one episode (mirror universe which I really liked and some of the plot was to prevent genocide which was against the mirror star fleet’s orders, funny isn’t it and to the point). In fact your statement “Cultures have to take care of themselves.†is kind of right on the money, we mustn’t interfere with other cultures, even if they are eradicating their own population.

Oh Terry, to me it is a Treky (or Trekie) for a number of reasons but thanks for the input.
 

bryan

Veteran Expediter
RE: The Prime Directive defined

Hi

I think that everybody should have thier own culture in their own country and should assimilate to the customs of the country that they immgrate to."When in Rome" not "Lets fix paradise". The US Government needs to butt out of other peoples business and worry more about whats going on here.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: The Prime Directive defined

Resistance is futile
you will be assimulated
ya'll drink Coke and eat at Micky'ds
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
RE: The Prime Directive defined

"I think that everybody should have thier own culture in their own country and should assimilate to the customs of the country that they immgrate to."When in Rome" not "Lets fix paradise". The US Government needs to butt out of other peoples business and worry more about whats going on here."

I do agree with you 100% and the change in attitude that we all should have.

If you want to come here, you speak our language, live in our culture and learn to live side by side as a PRODUCTIVE resident of our country.

Do not come here and expect us to change for you.

Do not come here and expect to have laws created that force us to respect your religion, your culture or you. Respect is earned and you earn it by making effort to assimilate and be productive.

Do not come here and expect us to have help ready for you or provide you with shelter, only the most destitute of people should get help.

Do not come here and live among us as equal to a citizen until you earned that right by being a productive addition to our country.

Do not invade our country and expect us to accept you or even want you here.

The immigrant has more of an obligation to the country they immigrate to than does the country to the immigrant.

Yes OVM that is about it.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
RE: The Prime Directive defined

WOW!! I can't believe I made it to the end of this thread without taking a breath... I only wanted to make the point that nearly all pepperoni in the U.S. is made of horse meat. I know this for a fact
as I have seen it made. This could not be true if it were illegal to eat horse meat.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
RE: The Prime Directive defined

>WOW!! I can't believe I made it to the end of this thread
>without taking a breath... I only wanted to make the point
>that nearly all pepperoni in the U.S. is made of horse meat.

Ok, if that is the case then most of the salami is also made that way because that is what pepperoni is.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: The Prime Directive defined

It may have been but not anymore...thats why such a problem in KY with unwanted horses. Since glue is now chemically made theres no need for horses in that market either
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: The Prime Directive defined

Sooo The #1 question I get asked is I am I going to become a U.S. citizen? Answer: Maybe only if I have to be, to collect SS or medicaid,medicare. I'll not give ANY government my money to become a citizen for the same reason my wife didn't become a Canadian citizen. No need to be. I didn't come here for a better life like 3rd world people. I consider the U.S to be an extension of Canada (in a figurative way) and visa versa. I guess the only difference is my taxes now go to the IRS to help support this ALSO great country. If I had to go to war I'd defend the U.S as I would my own. I have a great pride in BOTH countrys.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
RE: The Prime Directive defined

OVM,
That is the best statement about immigration I have heard yet on any forum.

I wish that this was the mind set of others who come here.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
RE: The Prime Directive defined

You can bet your booty some of the others from 3rd world countries would run for the hills if the U.S. needed them to fight..after all they run from thier own country and didn't even try to defend thier homeland!!! They will take, take, take and give little in return! Mind you a Brit an Aussie or a Scot like myself love a good fight!!!!!

BTW...I just realized you agreed with me....*L*
 
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