the LNG trucks are coming

[moose]

back in late 2007 OOIDA Vp Tod Spencer called on the DoE and the EPA to stop phasing in ever new emissions control timelines, and mandate the building of a national LNG distribution network, so OTR truck can be power by LNG rather then diesel.
the Gov. did not listen to OOIDA, which resulted in a decade long of expensive, heavy, unreliable trucks, altogether with the pollution that comes with diesel motors.
not to mention our continues relay on imported fuel...will we even be at war now ?

all of that is about to change in the next 2 years.

believe it or not, by this time next year LNG will be readily available for long haul trucks.

in this link you can watch a long video explaining the distribution challenges facing
CNG (Compressed Natural Gas)
as well as
LNG (Liquid Natural Gas)

Clean Energy Movie: LNG vs. CNG for Trucking

you can watch several more trucking related video right here on the C/E main page :

LNGTruck


as many of you witness lately , 'Clean Energy' is building new fueling pumps at many Pilot/F-J location.
indeed C/E have signed a contract with P/F-J to use its locations for new national LNG HWY.
by this time next year 70 location will be open, and another 80 the following year.
unfortunately each new fuel island is being built on places where trucks used to park, further limiting the already hard to find parking space.
get used to 'truck stops with no place to stop a truck'.

there's a good rezone for that.
in it's developing stages C/E simply did not ask the opinion of it's future customer base.
when looking at the provided map:

Clean Cities: Coalition Locations

you can click on the city of your choice, where you can find C/E sources.
amazingly as it is, in most of the links provided, you can find our direct competition .
not many OTR voices there !
indeed big money is using this opportunity to step over truckers one more time.

C/E is by far NOT the only provider of LNG, and when LNG trucks will become the view of the road, finding a fueling location should not be a hard task. the LNG HWY's are being build now to accommodate the anticipated future trucks traffic.

Motors/trucks.
this coming MATS will unveil a record numbers of new class 7 or class 8 LNG trucks.
Cummins/Westport will be releasing a 11.9 Liter NatGas engine with 425 HP
Navistar is planning on releasing a 12.9 Liter NatGas & Dual Fuel Maxxforce engine in early 2013
it'll not be a surprise to find CAT getting back to on road trucks.
looking at the MATS floor plan some trucks manufacturers have acres of display... maybe new motors ?

the big question is how those new trucks will perform in OTR application.
C/E say one gallon of LNG cost way less then a one Gallon of Diesel fuel.
but how far can it last ? dose a gallon of LNG will get us as far as a Gallon of Diesel ?
will the cost of new trucks equipped with LNG motors be lower ?
will they be as reliable ?
will they weigh less ?
if you ask Yay for all of the above,
will you be able to compete driving your own Diesel powered rig ?

and the most important question
is it smart to buy an SCR truck now ?
now that we know ?
one thing is certain, if you are in the market for a NEW rig in the near future, you must make it to this year MATS.

and remember, you read it first right here on EO,
the information HWY.

 

[Rocketman]

I love the idea. We have a lot of natural gas in the US. But to make any major impact I believe we will not a lot more than 60 or 70 locations. They have to start somewhere and this is as good as any.

If they do outfit EVERY flyingJ and Pilot it would be a good start.

 

[jjoerger]

I think it is a great idea too. I am sure they will work out the safety issues with fueling, fuel tank placement on the vehicles etc.
LNG is a lot more volatile than diesel.
I don't know about saving any weight. The motors may become lighter but the fuel tanks will most likely be heavier.
A big question is will an LNG designed motor last a million miles?

 

[greg334]

As one who owned a cng truck, I do not think that the government has stood in the way to expand LNG/cng distribution but rather the lack of a need or in other words consumer pressure to bring the companies like BP and marathon to the public.

There isn't much difference in performance, the cost per mile is less than diesel but as a domestic fuel source it is still dependent on market prices and can rise with the demand rising as it has in the past when power plants converted to ng.

The longevity of the engine is not a concern, it is a cleaner burning fuel and my truck had pretty clean oil when I change the oil. The engine was removed after the accident and the oilpan removed showing a near new looking engine.

 

[scottm4211]

What are some real numbers as far as per "gallon" comparisons to diesel?

 

[greg334]

What are some real numbers as far as per "gallon" comparisons to diesel?

If I remember right the cost per mile was 26 cents a mile for diesel while the cng was running about 18 cents a mile.

The savings was substantial at the time but now there is closer with diesel because of the increase in price of ng. Maybe a 4 cent difference.

 

[pearlpro]

Many years ago I used to work for a Large Juice delivery company who operated there truck fleet on LNG, I was a mechanic and made lots of oil changes on vehicles that the oil looked brand new so we extended the intervals, even after 5-7K miles the oil still looked new, The spark plugs lasted longer, even after doing some overhauls on vehicles that had to be removed and reman'd we noticed the clean inside of the oil pans, no oil or carbon buildups, even the Piston ring land area were not discernible. I think LNG is a cleaner fuel that leaves far less residue and should be cheaper and give better mileage. Id love to test drive a LNG Class 8 vehicle and see how its come to fruition. Its a great cheaper alternative to Diesel and maybe a way to get the Futures Traders out of our Pocketbooks.

 

[AMonger]

I read that the US has enough natural gas to power the country for decades, or was it centuries...I forget. But if you combine that with coal-to-oil, we could be energy independent for long after we invent or discover the next energy source. So why aren't we doing it? The only good reason of which I can think is to intentionally deplete the world of oil, to return the middle-east to a desert and deprive China of their means of growth, making America preeminent in the world again. Problem is, that would take a long-@$$ time.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.

 

[Monty]

Me and Roberts Express transported a lot of thoe LNG tanks .... from Urbana,Ohio to Detroit back in the 80's.

The tanks are lightweight, becase they are wrapped in about 6000 wraps of fiberglass .. (ok, maybe not that many) , but they are wrapped time and again.

 

[greg334]

I think that if you hauled tanks for ng, they were CNG tanks. LNG needs to be cold to remain in the liquid state, this is why most of the trucks on the road with CNG and none that I know of are LNG - which there is a lot of CNG trucks out there. They have tanks that can handle the pressure and temp differences where the LNG tanks are too big to actually do much in savings.

The energy needed to produce LNG is not off set by the savings and per btu, it is as costly as gas/diesel per btu - sometimes higher.

We import a lot of our LNG, we don't import much of the CNG we use. LNG requires different steps to make it where CNG is cleaned up and sent out.

Oh and because we are a nation of fools, countries like Egypt and Iran have been on the cutting edge of CNG vehicles (one reason GM has used our tax money to research CNG - to sell to Iran and other middle east countries who have a lot of CNG vehicles).

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Unless they've changed the capacity the tanks hold....you won't go too far....I also drove a NG taxi...about 80 miles to a tankful before I had to switch back to gas....and the NG cost me about 3.50 to fill back then....Propane was by far a better deal...used to do a whole 12 hour shift on a Friday one 1 fill...the oil also stays clean...

 

[cableguymn]

I to think LPG is a better alternative to LNG/CNG. at least currently. The range is there, it's a lot easier to find. The pressures it's kept at are much lower.

 

[greg334]

Unless they've changed the capacity the tanks hold....you won't go too far....I also drove a NG taxi...about 80 miles to a tankful before I had to switch back to gas....and the NG cost me about 3.50 to fill back then....Propane was by far a better deal...used to do a whole 12 hour shift on a Friday one 1 fill...the oil also stays clean...

Well I don't know what 'taxi' you drove but my wife and I looked at a Crown Vic with the CNG setup and should would have to fill it every third day, she drives 72 miles round trip for work. So I would think that Taxis have a smaller tank because of the need to use the trunk space a bit more for money.

As for LPG, the problem isn't with the pressure, the pressure may be less but the weight of the tanks are more and starting it sometimes doesn't happen as easily as CNG. With CNG, you can get filling setups installed in your garage that will pump the NG right from the NG line into your home. We looked at doing that, a substantial savings on the fuel but the cost ($6000) even with the tax credit would not allow it to pay off for 5 to 6 years. By that time, I would have to have changed out the tanks (they expire) and invest another $3000 into the tanks.

 

[moose]

AND... the saga continue .
as expected, big money is using this opportunity to step over truckers one more time:

http://www.thetrucker.com/News/Stor...hensiveNGpartnershipwithCleanEnergyFuels.aspx

"They said the partnership will help accelerate the adoption of natural gas technologies by making it easier for customers to invest in the new technology, including incentives aimed at neutralizing the cost difference for the diesel fuel equivalent for those who purchase at least 1,000 diesel gallon equivalents of natural gas fuel each month. "

or in other words,
right from the getgo,
Navistar partner with Clean Air to provide a cost effective truck/fuel ONLY to large fleets.

 

[pb4ugo]

There seem to be a few mistaking CNG and LNG in this thread. I have driven CNG vehicles for years and yes, the range is limited (or you can deal with reduced cargo space due to the bulk of the tanks) and the power slightly reduced. LNG is quite new to the US market and is an attempt to rectify the limited range of CNG. AS another posted above, it is super chilled to a liquid and one can achieve fuel storage nearly equal to the standard diesel tanks.

Propane is a byproduct of the oil refining process, so it is still not entirely domestically sourced. The US has more natural gas than Iran has oil, so why not tap into it?

Also, in regards to CableGuy's safety comment vs. propane, I have to disagree. Since natural gas is lighter than air, it will simply dissipate should a tank rupture as opposed to pooling on the ground like propane.

Price: At the Flying J at crossroads in Salt Lake City, UT Diesel is $3.899/gal and DEF is $2.899 (not needed in nat. gas apps, of course) The LNG is at $2.599/dge (diesel gallon equivalent--the same amount of energy that is contained in one gallon of diesel)

 

[Rocketman]

AS another posted above, it is super chilled to a liquid and one can achieve fuel storage nearly equal to the standard diesel tank.

How is LNG "super-chilled" and what has to happen to maintain the liquid state?

On another note: I mentioned this thread to my brother who owns some property in the Fayetteville Shale region of AR. He says NG prices are about 1/4 of what they were just a couple of years ago. He did say that there are rumors of big things in the works. He mentioned being able to transport it overseas being a big part of it. I would imagine that this is tied to LNG.

 

[moose]

The construction of the new LNG fuel Islands here at the Houston Flying J.
Clearly taking up 40 truck parking spaces.
not a problem to the ATA/teamsters, as they are not the ones looking for truck parking spaces out there.

 

[moose]

How is LNG "super-chilled" and what has to happen to maintain the liquid state?.

I am not a RocketMan, but i'll take a look...LoL...
like when you boil water in that kitchen pressure thingy, if it do not let the vapors out, the water temp. can easily get to way above the boiling point.
same with liquid fumes, as long as the tank can hold the pressure, no matter how warm it gets, the liquid cannot becomes vapor if it have no place to 'vape' into.
that's why if the NG liquid gets too 'low' in the fuel tank, you must fill it up, you will always carry some amount of NG that the truck cannot use.
...i think.

 

[blackpup]

Extreme pressure can force a gas into the liquid state, like wise cryogenic temperatures will condense a gas into the liquid state. Temperature required approximately (-260 °f ) found on wikipedia.

jimmy