The Decline and Fall of Private Education

[LDB]

Here is a well written article detailing action by our current administration damaging to the education system and future generations. It well may be part of their plan as suggested in the article.

The Decline and Fall of Private Education - HUMAN EVENTS

 

[Turtle]

Chuck Norris is my hero (OK, not really, but he's pretty kewl in many ways), but he's off the mark with school vouchers. Yes, parents deserve educational choices, but they don't deserve a voucher hand out from the government funded with my tax dollars. If they want to home school or send their kids to private school, fine, do it. People sent kids to private schools long before the voucher program was started, a voucher isn't a requirement for private school.

If you can't afford private school, then you'd better get involved as a parent with the PTA and be active in what your child is learning in public school.

 

[greg334]

If you can't afford private school, then you'd better get involved as a parent with the PTA and be active in what your child is learning in public school.

You are kidding me?

You come here and try to figure out what your kid is learning.

My sister had to fight to get the lesson plans for her kids to stay informed, it took her 3 months and it seemed a miracle to get the school system to move off their a** - AND she is part of the PTA and very active. She is not in a crappy school system but a rather good one.

Involvement means nothing, the parents have little say in what is going on in their schools and if you want proof, take a really close look at the Detroit public schools Turtle. These parents are fighting for basic rights, to be heard and they are shut out. They have little say in the anything that is taught.

The same goes for school choice, we just had a superintendent booted because he wanted to keep the school system open for other students while enrollment dropped - the teachers union and the school board disagreed with him and the people are p*ssed off that now they will close a number of schools instead of capturing the state and federal funding.

I firmly believe in competition and non-union teachers, if the parents have choices and control, then the quality improves. We should actually look at France, where the money follows the kids, not the kids follow the money... but alas the union is in control.

 

[mjolnir131]

private vouchers will not fix the system the problem is almost all teacher wheather in a public or private school wear educated in the same system,the few real techers that the USA has is not brecouse of this system it's in spit of it and i do mean few maybe one out of every 5000 if we are lucky.

Our techers are indoctranatedand not tought so they most unknowing actually pass this on to our children who might be highly inteligent but have not be tought to think for themselfs.

I'll bet that over 80% of your kids wear told to think for themselfs but the second they started to the got into truoble

 

[greg334]

Well before you d*mn the voucher system, take a serious look at the public education system and take the actual teachers out of it for a bit. The system is setup wrong, there is too much dead weight and there is no local control where it counts.

When you add the teachers in, yes they are indoctrinated and yes they don't always teach - some are good and others bad but they have to answer to the administrators (a problem) and the Union (the real problem).

I don't begrudge teachers protection from abuse but they are public servants, they are there to perform a service to the public at large and like other public servants should not be represented by a union who is not operating in the publics interest.

Vouchers solve the problem for the parents, which is the most important issue here, not the school system. If the parents have no control, then allowing them to have the freedom to go where they feel that their kids will get a good education is the right thing to do.

Beside something that didn't seem to get mentioned, the DC vouchers were something like $7500 a student but the public school system there has a per student cost of $14,000 - is there something wrong there?

 

[Turtle]

No, Greg, I'm not kidding. But, my frame of reference is admittedly limited. I only have my own schooling (Princeton High, class of '76, Go Vikings!) where if parents asked for lesson plans they were given them, and most recently the local school board where I live where my mom was secretary to the superintendent of public schools, where parent involvement is encouraged and lesson plans from any teacher in the system are freely available to anyone who walks into the Board Office. Curriculums have been changed because of concerns voiced by parents.

The teacher's union can be a PITA sometimes, but for the most part, I suppose because it's a smaller town, and a college town, everyone gets heard and most things are worked out. We have private schools in town, as well, and people home school their kids, 'cause you can't please everybody. It's just the one "city" school and then the county school, plus the elementary schools that dot the city and county. But the grade scores are consistently near the top in the state (OK, it's Kentucky, but whatareyagonnado) and the percentages of those who go on to college are above the national average.

It may be because it's a small school board (the city school) of five members, and the fact they they have to go home and listen to their neighbors every day. I dunno.

I still don't think my tax dollars should go to fund private or home schooling, tho.

 

[LDB]

Yes, parents deserve educational choices, but they don't deserve a voucher hand out from the government funded with my tax dollars.

Your (our) tax dollars are going to pay for education one way or the other. The options illustrated were a failing public school system for $14k annually per student or a voucher for the parent for $7500. Last time I checked my arithmetic it was a lot less our of my (our) pocket to scrape together $7500 per kid instead of $14k per kid. The article is pretty much dead on. Don't allow options that might result in output (graduating students) too smart to vote for the glitz/hype like what happened in the last election.

 

[Turtle]

As of the end of school year 2008, the local school district where I live educated students at $6783 per. And they have a lot of bells and whistles. If a school district has to fork out fourteen grand per student to educate them, that school district needs a massive overhaul. Handing out vouchers actually increases the cost per student every time one student gets yanked out of the school.

 

[layoutshooter]

If you take a kid OUT of public school it no longer costs any money for that school to educate him. I want to first, get the Feds out of education, they have NO legal right to be in it. Then the state should be out. All schools should be run on a local level where the PARENTS can control them. I had nothing but trouble when my kids were in school. Those principles and teachers etc did not believe that they were my employee. They REALLY believed that THEY knew what was best for my sons, not me. The arrogance was astounding!! Get government under control and fast. layoutshooter

 

[jimby82]

I hesitate to post here, but I will anyway. Sorry about the length.
(I am not an expediter, and truthfully, probably never will be. I was looking into it some time back, I think I'm leaning towards something completely different. I have spoken with several of you, and thanks for the time all of you spent! I really do appreciate it!) My Dad was a OTR-OO so I grew up under the truck; I am no stranger to grease and grime. I also drove for about 2 years or so, but that was some time ago. Anyway....

I currently work for a public charter school in Ohio (Technology Coordinator), and have worked in education for the last 7 years now. My wife is an administrator here also, and had been an educator (Teacher/Gifted Coordinator/Administrator) for the last 13 years.

That being said, today's educational systems scare the heck out of me and they should you too. We have become so obsessed with not "leaving anyone behind", we have completely forgotten to push those with the ability forward! Contrary to what you have been led to believe by some educators, some kids just CAN'T (or won't) learn. They just were not given the ability or refuse to use it. Those that do have the ability are often ignored while educators are busy keeping everyone else caught up. No child left behind also infers no child pushed forward. Sadly, mediocrity is now the accepted standard in our society. (Maybe this IS the ultimate goal after all!)

That may sound cruel or "unfeeling", but it's true. Not that we should shove them aside, leaving them with no education and helpless, but not everyone is going to grow up to be a rocket scientist! Trying to get everyone to follow the same path is absurd!

Cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all educational strategies just do not work with our children. Yet, that is the approach taken by the federal and state education departments and the educational establishment. Everyone must take the same tests, everyone must take the same curriculum, everyone must have the same opportunities, irrespective of abilities or talents. "Conform or Die!"

Standardized performance-based testing has done more harm to our schools than about any other thing I can think of. Teachers are now forced to "teach to the test", to insure their students know what is in the curriculum standards. They really no longer have much of a say in what to teach or how to teach it. Its all pretty much dictated by the state DOE (and increasingly by the feds. - Local control is rapidly disappearing from our schools.)

Teachers and even the schools themselves are "graded" on the test performance of their students. (In, Ohio, we get a school "Report Card" at the end of the year.) In some cases, a teachers very livelihood is tied to student performance. (Kids don't do well on the tests, you loose your job.) If you don't think this directly affects the focus of classroom learning, you are kidding yourself. Test performance is constantly in the back of teachers minds throughout the year. Teach something not dictated by the state curriculum at your own risk!

I know some of you are probably saying, "Well shouldn't the kids have to do well on the state tests?", "Shouldn't the teachers and schools be held accountable for student performance?" Sounds logical don't it? Maybe until you actually take a look at some of the things our kids are expected to learn, or worse yet, take a look at the tests!

There is a tool used in education called Bloom's Taxonomy. It's used to classify different types of learning. According to Bloom, there are 6 levels of learning in the cognitive domain. (The ability to think and understand)
They are in order from simple to complex:

Knowledge (Memorize something)
Comprehension (Understand something)
Application (Use what you know)
Analysis (Use what you know to infer)
Synthesis (Combine what you know)
Evaluation (Tell what you know and defend it)

Guess what? Our system of education and testing only really covers the first 2! (Maybe the first 3 in some rare cases) We test out kids on what they can memorize (Knowledge) and their basic understanding of it (Comprehension). Who cares if they know how to use their knowledge or truly understand. Heaven forbid they actually have to "think"! It's not on the test. And we certainly don't have time to teach that part to our kids! They have got to study for the test!

Thankfully, there are some educators who refuse to play by the rules. They will actually "teach" their students not only the "facts" but also the "how and why". Unfortunately, these are few and far between. The charter school movement got started in this country by those who wanted to take back local control from the failing state ran education systems. Hopefully it's not too late!

Oh, a little about me and our school.

We serve 170 students in grades K-12.
Our students are required to take all the state testing and we are held responsible for their test scores just like any other public school in Ohio. So what's different?
-We allow our students to "go at their own pace". We have some that are 2 or 3 grades levels ahead in certain areas. (They may be a 5th grader by age, and in 6th grade Math and only 4th grade Reading) We actually challenge them!
- We have individual written educational plans for each student. And we follow them.
- We actually listen to what the kids have to say.
- Our teachers will actually come in early or stay late to help a struggling student.

One BIG difference: Our teachers DO NOT belong to a Union! (Or none of this would be possible.)

We have graduated 100% of our seniors, and have had 2 National Merit Scholarship FINALISTS in the last 3 years.
About 30% of our students qualify for free and reduced lunches. (Low income). 15% of our students are on IEPs (Special Ed)

We are a public (We take state money, we do not charge our students) charter school. We received and spent approximately $6028 per student from the state and federal governments (Hey this actually belongs to the students!) The average for Ohio is about $9800 per student for "traditional" public schools or about $2800/year per pupil more than us.

Oh, we will finish this year in the black, with about $5,000 more in the bank than when we started.

Fire away!

 

[layoutshooter]

As with any subject there are exceptions. The problem is that, at least when my kids were in school, the parents had no control over the "system" what so ever.

My son was ADD (I really don't buy that for one minute) but for what ever reason he did not work out in the traditional setting. He once was put into "detention" for over a month. During that time, no clases just the work, he got a straight "A" average on all his work. It was great, no fighting, no calls from teachers, he was happier. I had the gaul to suggest to the principle that we should just leave him in that program until he got out of high school or grew up enough to handle "normal" class room. Of course he said no and went on to tell me that HE was the educator, not I, and HE knew what was best for my son, NOT I. In almost those exact words.

I won't even go into what garbage they were teaching back then either. By the way he is 32 now so it was not during the no child left behind stuff.

All I want is that the PARENTS control the schools, as they should.

Layoutshooter

 

[greg334]

Here is what I don't get....

Why are the methods better today with the modern schools than they were back than?

If we were bringing up a bunch of dummies, than the nation would never have prospered as it did and we wouldn't have the innovations that we have had.

Or is it that the teachers themselves are a lot less educated than the ones in the past?

I know a group of people who have home schooled their kids (40 in all) back when I was in school. They used the old methods of teaching like my parents were taught under, even taught them cursive writing the same way - a lot of practice.

Out of the 40 kids, not one of them was refused entry into a college, all of them got a diploma from my school and most had scholarships to schools including MIT before they were 17. The parents didn't seem to be the average college grad, I don't think that any of them ever finished college.

 

[layoutshooter]

We were taught by teachers who did NOT go to college in the '60's. Layoutshooter

 

[jimby82]

I think you have hit on the key - Parental involvement.

If they parents are involved, generally the kids are successful. Sadly, most "traditional" schools tend to exclude the parents from the educational process, whether by omission or worse, by actively discouraging them from the classrooms.

The mentality of "I'm the Educator and I know best" is prevalent in our educational systems. This starts in the colleges and universities and filters down into the classrooms. NO ONE should know the child better than the parent!

Parents need to be involved with the education of their children!

 

[layoutshooter]

It will never happen under the present system. Government now rules and the schools are government. Until we take back control of government and the schools it is a waste of time to try. We were told to let the schools do what is best for our son and to stay out of it. Layoutshooter

 

[greg334]

Well I am thinking from my experience as a student in Public schools, that it is a form of child abuse and should be eliminated.

It is like parents who force the issue of kids getting licenses when they hit 16, it is not for the kids but the parents - they want to be free of the burden of having to haul the kids around - "Hey because you have a license now, you can take Ashely and you little brother Dilbert to soccer practice while I go shopping with Auntie Em". The same thing applies to school, the parents feel it is the school's responsibility to be a babysitter, to be exact I know of one schools policy that if the parent is not home the kid can't leave the school bus and is returned to the school.

 

[layoutshooter]

Many feel that way today Greg, but remember, THEY are the first generation raised by the "new" schools. Many of them just don't know any better. They were educated to be stupid. Layoutshooter

 

[pelicn]

I also believe that the government should get out of the business of education. I have 3 sons 27, 26, and 24. My older 2 did good in school with little intervention on my part. My youngest was a horse of a different color. He was bored out of his mind. He would blow off homework and ace tests. He would sit in class and read ahead in the text book. He would look up information, from other sources, that he didn't understand. At home, I would have to sit with him to make sure he completed homework assignments just so that he didn't fail the class. He would make straight A's on tests but because he didn't do the other work, would fail the class.
This happened year after year because there was a set way of teaching/learning and no room for innovation.
In 10th grade he quit school and took the GED. I could have forced him to stay, but to what point? He is an extremely intelligent person that continues to read and learn, but he is a horse of a different color.