'SlutWalk' marches sparked by Toronto officer's remarks

[EnglishLady]

BBC News

A new protest movement sparked by a policeman's ill-judged advice to women students to "avoid dressing like sluts" has taken root in the US and Canada.

Thousands of people - some dressed in jeans, others more provocatively - are taking part in marches, or "SlutWalks".

The aim, say organisers, is to highlight a culture in which the victim rather than rapist or abuser is blamed.

A "SlutWalk" in Toronto last month attracted some 3,000 people. A similar event is due to take place in Boston.

Nearly 2,500 people have signed up via Facebook to attend Saturday's march in Boston.

Boston organiser Siobhan Connors explained: "The event is in protest of a culture that we think is too permissive when it comes to rape and sexual assault."

"It's to bring awareness to the shame and degradation women still face for expressing their sexuality... essentially for behaving in a healthy and sexual way," the 20-year-old told Associated Press.

Police officer Constable Michael Sanguinetti had been giving a talk on health and safety to a group of students at Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto when he made the now infamous remarks.

"You know, I think we're beating around the bush here," he reportedly told them. "I've been told I'm not supposed to say this - however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised".

He has since apologised for his remarks and has been disciplined by the Toronto police, but remains on duty.

Meanwhile, his remarks have led to "SlutWalks" not only in Toronto but also in Dallas, Asheville in North Carolina, and in the Canadian capital, Ottawa.

As well as Boston, marches are also planned in Seattle, Chicago, Philadelphia, Reno and Austin.

The SlutWalk Toronto website says the aim of the movement is to "re-appropriate" the world .

"Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work," it says.

Everybody, from singles, couples, parents, sisters, brothers, children and friends, are encouraged to join the marches.

The rallies typically end with speakers and workshops on stopping sexual violence and calling on law enforcement agencies not to blame victims after sexual assaults, the Associated Press reports.

 

[Scottrucks]

But the actual message has some merit to it.
First off, touching/voilence against any girl/women is wrong...
So if you think that a man would have to a little off centre to do such a thing in the first place, then letting it hang out. might make such a person react in ways that might be harmful and even deadly...Having spent 6 years as a corrections officer in one of my former careers, I have men who are a lot off centre and just seeing a women gets them excited to say the least, seeing a women dressed with very little on only makes it more of a thrill for them...
Yes a women should be able to walk down a street however and whenver she chooses to and NOT worry about her safety and well being but that isn't always the case.
Do you lock the doors on your truck when are sleeping in it?
Why if the world we live in is so rosie why would we have any need for locks at all...
I am married and have a teenage daughter...and yes they both are somewhat conservative on how they dress, you can can still look good with out letting it all hang out...
IMHO anyway...

 

[cheri1122]

While I am not a fan of the MTV style of dressing, [wearing underwear as outerwear], particularly among young girls who haven't a clue about sex, I have to wonder just how much clothing had to do with the many women raped in their own homes - especially the much older ones. And the nuns, too.
Again: rape is not about sex - it's about anger and a need to control. Clothing has zero to do with it.

 

[Turtle]

A "SlutWalk" in Toronto last month attracted some 3,000 people.

Yeah, 7 sluts and 2,993 spectators.

While I am not a fan of the MTV style of dressing, [wearing underwear as outerwear]

Oh, I am. Big fan.

 

[layoutshooter]

I doubt that clothing is a major contributor to rape. I will say that I am amazed that the "Hookers Union" is not going out on strike. I don't want to hear that women don't like how men look at them when they are half naked on the street. You are what you advertise.

 

[scottm4211]

I doubt that clothing is a major contributor to rape. I will say that I am amazed that the "Hookers Union" is not going out on strike. I don't want to hear that women don't like how men look at them when they are half naked on the street. You are what you advertise.

If that is the case then why do some cops/judges feel the need to mention it? And why is it brought up in court?
Don't you see that by a cop saying this it gives credence to that very attitude?

 

[pjjjjj]

If that is the case then why do some cops/judges feel the need to mention it? And why is it brought up in court?
Don't you see that by a cop saying this it gives credence to that very attitude?

Because *some* men and *some* male judges are controlling and want women to dress within certain boundaries? (I would like to hear what they are).
Do *some* men have difficulty understanding the difference between *sex* and *rape*?

 

[layoutshooter]

If that is the case then why do some cops/judges feel the need to mention it? And why is it brought up in court?
Don't you see that by a cop saying this it gives credence to that very attitude?

No I don't see how one cop saying anything gives credence to this. What I learned in school was rape was more about rage and control than sex or sexy clothing.

I don't know why it was brought up in court, as an excuse maybe? As in, she was sexy looking, she made me do it.

 

[layoutshooter]

Because *some* men and *some* male judges are controlling and want women to dress within certain boundaries? (I would like to hear what they are).
Do *some* men have difficulty understanding the difference between *sex* and *rape*?

Women can dress any way they wish. Just don't complain that men are staring or treating you like a "sex object" if that is how you dress. Women, or men for that matter, don't dress in a "sexy" manner for no reason. They do it to attract attention.

Some men might "confuse" sex and rape but they are not normal men. Normal men know the "rules" and abide by them. A rapist is not normal.

 

[greg334]

Because *some* men and *some* male judges are controlling and want women to dress within certain boundaries? (I would like to hear what they are).
Do *some* men have difficulty understanding the difference between *sex* and *rape*?

Well from my point of view, men are not as much as the problem as society with a double standard and prudent attitude.

A woman is asking for problems by wearing some clothes that show off her **** and **** but if she gets raped, it isn't her fault?

Makes no sense when she is dressing to incite a reaction from the opposite sex. YES the clothes have everything to do with it.

I know that sounds wrong but realistically it isn't.

I mean that we live in this prudent culture where we can't even see **** and ***** on TV, where a celebratard shows her *** and everyone goes ballistic - oh we have to protect the children from that.

As Cheri mentioned, rape has to do with anger, sometimes control but also a way of shifting the pressure onto someone else. With no outlet, being told this or that is wrong and means little, the man sometimes has problems discerning the difference between rape and not rape.

We outlaw prostitution, try to get rid of ****** bars and fight not to have topless this or that. We also have limited cops and law enforcement, try to protect everyone is unrealistic in itself.

IT begs a question, where there is legalized prostitution, what is the level of rape happening in those areas?

I heard a lot lower than we could imagine.

ON TOP of all of that, we allow ourselves to become involved in celeberties and their lives, like Britany spears, lohan and other's who can be considered sluts by even european standards. We allow our children to emulate their behavior and not teach them that a girl who has her ***** hanging out or ******* showing is asking for a confrontation which she can't handle. Parenting has a lot to do with it too, we can't forget that, but also we need to teach kids that there are just plain bad people out there and no matter how you dress, they will do what they want to you.

 

[pjjjjj]

A woman is asking for problems by wearing some clothes that show off her **** and **** but if she gets raped, it isn't her fault?

That's right, it isn't her fault.

Makes no sense when she is dressing to incite a reaction from the opposite sex. YES the clothes have everything to do with it.

I know that sounds wrong but realistically it isn't.

I really can't believe you are saying this. Aren't you one of the people who doesn't buy into the 'buy now, pay later' trap? One who touts personal responsibility? One who believes things should be earned rather than expected?

If you see something you want in a store or at someone's house, do you take it for your own? If you can't help yourself from stealing a wanted item, do you then blame it on the shopkeeper for having an item in his shop which drew your eye to want it?

Men are free to go and buy girly mags.. does this 'make' them go out and rape someone? If how a woman is dressed has something to do with whether or not they are assaulted, then why are very elderly women, very fat women, very ugly women, and women who are covered from head to toe ever raped? Your logic isn't making any sense.

I think some men (perhaps yourself included) are confusing 2 very different and separate issues.

 

[EnglishLady]

"Double Standards and prudiish attitude" as Greg says has a lot do with it.

Take for example ..... shirtless men

If a woman tried that she would be arrested - whats good for one should be good for another ......

No I don't mean everyone walking around topless, everyone keeps their shirt on

Women dress to be fashionable and attractive to men.

Fashion plays a big part in todays world.

From the skinny model to the clothes that are worn.

Women in "civilised" countries throughout the ages have been clothed from head to toe, once upon a time not even an ankle showed.

Then BAM along comes the 60's and mini skirts and hot pants - what an outrage that caused.
(Along with "devil" music)

This is just the new fashion in clothing. Should we be blaming the Fashion Houses

The Police Officer may well have his own opinion but that should have been kept to himself as that is all it is, an opinion.

Do I approve? ..... if I had a daughter wanting to dress in such skimpy clothing ...... well lets say I'm glad I had boys

 

[Tennesseahawk]

That's right, it isn't her fault.

Ok... I'm going to dress like a skinhead, and walk down Visiger St in Detroit. If I get killed, it isn't my fault. Right? Everyone will be asking, "What was he walking down that street dressed like that? Didn't he know he'd get killed?"

I really can't believe you are saying this. Aren't you one of the people who doesn't buy into the 'buy now, pay later' trap? One who touts personal responsibility? One who believes things should be earned rather than expected?

It's not as easy as that. You're talking about animals (rapists) here. You can't define them traditionally. When they're in "rape mode", there is no personal responsibility.

If you see something you want in a store or at someone's house, do you take it for your own? If you can't help yourself from stealing a wanted item, do you then blame it on the shopkeeper for having an item in his shop which drew your eye to want it?

Men are free to go and buy girly mags.. does this 'make' them go out and rape someone? If how a woman is dressed has something to do with whether or not they are assaulted, then why are very elderly women, very fat women, very ugly women, and women who are covered from head to toe ever raped? Your logic isn't making any sense.

I think some men (perhaps yourself included) are confusing 2 very different and separate issues.

I don't believe it's the woman's fault in any case they are raped. But you have to look at it this way... if you tie a steak around your neck, and walk into a lion's den, you are asking for trouble. Likewise, if you dress slutty, you should know you might attract some seedy characters to your body. Some men are just one step from going over the edge, into their psychosis. Clothing may do it; but also red hair, riding a bike, whatever. In this case, you have to look out for YOU! You may not be at fault if you get raped; but there's a good chance you'll blame yourself if you do.

 

[pjjjjj]

..Ok... I'm going to dress like a skinhead, and walk down Visiger St in Detroit. If I get killed, it isn't my fault. Right? ...

Right.

... if you tie a steak around your neck, and walk into a lion's den, you are asking for trouble.

Agreed. But the streets of America are not lions' dens. Humans are supposed to be of superior intelligence.

...Likewise, if you dress slutty, you should know you might attract some seedy characters to your body.

Agreed. Personally, I can't imagine why a girl/woman would want to be ogled by seedy, dirty, old, disgusting men... but to each her own I guess. Doesn't mean they get to rape her though, and then have other men, including police and judges, blame the lack of self control on the woman's attire.

As has been stated by others, rape isn't about sex, and it seems some men here are confusing two completely separate issues. One being placing the responsibility for criminal behavior onto the victim; the other being trying to control the world by threatening that if women dress a certain way, they can expect and perhaps even deserve, to be assaulted.

 

[greg334]

That's right, it isn't her fault.

In some cases - yes. I am not saying that there isn't an issue with rape but there is with the idea that you can dress how you want and not have to worry about the reaction of an individual who may not be mentally capable of handing him or her self on a sexual level.

IF you take a look at how people dress at parties or how they get out of control in many situations, who's fault is it when they do get into trouble.

As I said, there are problems with society thinking that we need to change the way everyone thinks to conform to a prudish attitude while not understanding what else can cause problems.

I really can't believe you are saying this. Aren't you one of the people who doesn't buy into the 'buy now, pay later' trap? One who touts personal responsibility? One who believes things should be earned rather than expected?

Why?

I mean look around and see how some dress. Is it a fashion statement or a desire to attract attention?

I didn't say this either but it is applicable, when someone dressed to incite a reaction, it sometimes is because they have such a hatred for themselves and their body because of society that they welcome any and all attention they can get. Rape is the extreme and isn't acceptable but for some who can reason that it is part of the attention they need to get, they don't care.

Here is why I say this, my wife's niece is 15 years old and she dresses worst than some of the prostitutes I have seen walking in Detroit. She knows its wrong but she does it for any reaction she can get because she is so starved for attention and hates herself because she can't be like those that she admires.

To take this a step further, one of my old neighbors had a daughter who let everything hang out, she didn't care until she was raped. The cops caught the guy and when asked he was clear that she dressed to get a negitive reaction from men.

If you see something you want in a store or at someone's house, do you take it for your own? If you can't help yourself from stealing a wanted item, do you then blame it on the shopkeeper for having an item in his shop which drew your eye to want it?

Yep I understand that this is bad stuff and i am not trying to put rape into like say someone stealing a car (while many will consider that rape) but rather looking at it as a problem because of a double standard we have and shouldn't have.

It is like the women's lib movement and how many feel sex is rape while trying to define the women's place in society. We haven't yet achieved equal pay for equal work so I wouldn't expect other issues to be properly addressed.

Men are free to go and buy girly mags.. does this 'make' them go out and rape someone? If how a woman is dressed has something to do with whether or not they are assaulted, then why are very elderly women, very fat women, very ugly women, and women who are covered from head to toe ever raped? Your logic isn't making any sense.

Yep they are free but that's about it. See I think you asked an important question and here is the way I see it.

I divide up the issue in a few parts, one is dress, one is mental health programs/criminal activity and the last is society. IF we are to consider that a ugly, fat or old person (remember rape goes a few ways), much of that has to do with criminal activity or mental health issues - both society dresses down it to making it a right for the criminal to get away with it without a proper punishment while the mentally ill don't get proper treatment. Society is what I mentioned before, it is alright to have a 17 year old attend a party while dressed up to have her **** and ***** showing, but the guy who wants to get some has to worry about the "law" while looking for a prostitute - kind of a problem to me.

I think some men (perhaps yourself included) are confusing 2 very different and separate issues.

Nope not me, I just can't explain everything in a context others understand - rape bad, dressing up to show yourself off is also bad and no cops around to protect all of us is even worst.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Right.



Agreed. But the streets of America are not lions' dens. Humans are supposed to be of superior intelligence.



Agreed. Personally, I can't imagine why a girl/woman would want to be ogled by seedy, dirty, old, disgusting men... but to each her own I guess. Doesn't mean they get to rape her though, and then have other men, including police and judges, blame the lack of self control on the woman's attire.

As has been stated by others, rape isn't about sex, and it seems some men here are confusing two completely separate issues. One being placing the responsibility for criminal behavior onto the victim; the other being trying to control the world by threatening that if women dress a certain way, they can expect and perhaps even deserve, to be assaulted.

I didn't get that at all from the cop's comments. What I got was "Why invite that kind of attention (rape) by dressing that way? You can't control what others do, but you can lessen the chance of being raped by dressing more conservatively."

 

[cheri1122]

No I don't see how one cop saying anything gives credence to this. What I learned in school was rape was more about rage and control than sex or sexy clothing.

I don't know why it was brought up in court, as an excuse maybe?
Another indication of your not actually reading the article, or comprehending it: the comment wasn't made in court [where it would have immediately been objected to, and judged improper], but to a class of law students, by a police officer. Hence, no correction [unless a student spoke up], of a lie. And any LEO who believes that lie has no business in the job he holds.

As in, she was sexy looking, she made me do it.
The exact rationalization that requires women in the Middle East to wear burquas and veils: men cannot be held responsible for controlling their 'urges'.
How convenient - for the men.

 

[cheri1122]

I didn't get that at all from the cop's comments. What I got was "Why invite that kind of attention (rape) by dressing that way? You can't control what others do, but you can lessen the chance of being raped by dressing more conservatively."

which part of RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX are you not getting? Do you contend that the majority of rape occurs to women who are dressed provocatively, and it's for that reason?
I don't think so. A very large number of women were raped while in their own homes - were they 'asking for it'?
Attracting attention is one reason some women dress provocatively, but it's not by any means the only reason, and it doesn't make any difference even if she is. Whatever a woman is wearing, rape is not excused by the 'she provoked/asked for it' defense, period.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

which part of RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX are you not getting? Do you contend that the majority of rape occurs to women who are dressed provocatively, and it's for that reason?
I don't think so. A very large number of women were raped while in their own homes - were they 'asking for it'?
Attracting attention is one reason some women dress provocatively, but it's not by any means the only reason, and it doesn't make any difference even if she is. Whatever a woman is wearing, rape is not excused by the 'she provoked/asked for it' defense, period.

Do you know what a fetish is, Cheri? It's something that arouses someone. It can be sexual or not sexual. To a lot of men, slutty clothes are a fetish. Fishnet stockings are a fetish. High heels are a fetish. Skirts up to the buttcrack are a fetish. To others, bare feet are a fetish. Hair in curlers are a fetish. Blonde hair is a fetish. You get the point? Yes... most rapes have nothing to do with sex. Most of the time, a guy picks someone randomly. But a lot of the time, he'll see someone in his fetish, and go for that. They "profile" their targets. Ever watch SVU? They talk about it all the time.

Now... I never said that someone dressing up slutty is asking for it. There is no excuse for someone raping another. But the general standard in our society is that you get treated according to how you look. Dress like a gentleman, a slob, a lady, you get treated as such. Dress slutty, and you may get attention you aren't asking for.

 

[chefdennis]

cheri wrote to Layout:

Another indication of your not actually reading the article, or comprehending it: the comment wasn't made in court

his comment was in responce to Scott in post #6...not in responce to what he read in the article....