Religious dudes and dudettes - a Judas question

[WanderngFool]

Bowled over might be a good description.



Much like the new version of blasphemy.....Passion of the Christ. This would be the epitome of the total apostasy of the modern church. Neither of these productions are biblical, nor do they convey principal.

Any true Christian would shun them both.

I don't know much about the Passion of the Christ but I doubt they are at all similar. You're probably right that a "true Christian" would shun them both. Do you get to decide who a "true Christian" is?

 

[fr8hlr521]

I don't know much about the Passion of the Christ but I doubt they are at all similar. You're probably right that a "true Christian" would shun them both. Do you get to decide who a "true Christian" is?

I was kind of wondering about the "true Christian" thing as well. Is that a secret handshake kind of thing, or maybe a set of complex rules to follow? Sounds kind of exclusionary to me.

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[Maverick]

I don't know much about the Passion of the Christ but I doubt they are at all similar.

Both are quality productions using gifted and skilled people; one a musical, the other of course being a movie. They are similar only in the way they were embraced by a substantial amount of people who profess to be Christian. You mention those who raised a little ruckus over the productions, and these would be persons who know that none of this is biblical.

You're probably right that a "true Christian" would shun them both.

Attending either performance most certainly would not condemn a person, per say. I remember all the fury over TPC, with many ministers and whole churches grabbing up tickets and gushing over the evangelical possibilities of the production. Problem being? There is nothing to be embraced here, and it matters little what the world does to this regard. What a Christian does is quite another matter.

Do you get to decide who a "true Christian" is?

Absolutely I do not decide who a Christian is, or is not. We only know what they should be, and what they should condone or reject. After all, why study and attempt to follow the word of God, if one will not, or cannot, follow it?

Old enough to remember Superstar and agree with your assessment of quality musical production. Many people admire the cinematography of The Passion film as well. It matters little to me who attends/partakes in either one. What matters to me are those professing Christians who found themselves caught up in a worldly production which does not remotely run parallel to Biblical principle or teaching.

 

[fr8hlr521]

If everything written was accurate, you would only have one religion.

I doubt it. Since the Bible is the inspired Word, it could be assumed that translations are similarly inspired. Until you throw in free will and certain political, social and economic agendas, that is. I have always felt that it is not necessarily the words themselves, but the message behind the words. To me, that is the Word. Religious beliefs tend to reflect a perceived way to be closer to God, usually by following a set of made ritualistic rules that are biblical sometimes, and sometimes not.

The message behind the words, the Word, is clear for any Bible based religion. Love one another, be good to each other, be true to yourself and others.

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[WanderngFool]

Old enough to remember Superstar and agree with your assessment of quality musical production.

The good musical production of JCS is the sole attraction for me. I forgot to mention how good I thought the musicians were. Pretty complicated stuff and they nailed it imho.

I read the Wikipedia page for PTC after you mentioned it and now I remember the ruckus over that one. That's not my kind of movie and I doubt I'll ever see it. I'm not trying to provoke here, it's obvious I'm outgunned on this topic lol, but Wikipedia lists a large number of Christian bigwigs that say the movie is an accurate depiction and even the Pope supposedly said it was. Although later the Church denied he said that.

It wasn't accurate in your view?

 

[Maverick]

I was kind of wondering about the "true Christian" thing as well. Is that a secret handshake kind of thing, or maybe a set of complex rules to follow? Sounds kind of exclusionary to me.

Guess the exclusion part is something I may have unintentionally displayed through the wording of the post.

Jesus Christ himself challenged the religious leaders of the day, right a long with the apostles.....and many paid with their lives. Christians today should be on constant alert to those false teachers, and so called leaders of The Church. The target should never be (and is not in this case) those who are not believers. Found it quite perplexing to witness friends and family running to see a film in which Christian discernment should have told them........is an affront to God.

The exclusion part does not come from the believer; it comes from scripture itself, right along with warnings to avoid false teaching. With all the falling away from truth (predicted) and the growing entertainment centers called "Churches" these days? The true believer will stand with Christ....outside the camp.

Hebrews 13

[9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
[10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
[11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
[12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
[13] Let us go forth therefore unto him; without the camp, bearing his reproach.

 

[layoutshooter]

This thread should be in the loading dock.

 

[fr8hlr521]

Guess the exclusion part is something I may have unintentionally displayed through the wording of the post.

Jesus Christ himself challenged the religious leaders of the day, right a long with the apostles.....and many paid with their lives. Christians today should be on constant alert to those false teachers, and so called leaders of The Church. The target should never be (and is not in this case) those who are not believers. Found it quite perplexing to witness friends and family running to see a film in which Christian discernment should have told them........is an affront to God.

The exclusion part does not come from the believer; it comes from scripture itself, right along with warnings to avoid false teaching. With all the falling away from truth (predicted) and the growing entertainment centers called "Churches" these days? The true believer will stand with Christ....outside the camp.

Hebrews 13

[9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
[10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
[11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
[12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
[13] Let us go forth therefore unto him; without the camp, bearing his reproach.

That's a great post with many valid points. I, too, believe we must constantly be on watch for false prophets. Personally, I do not have any problem with the entertainment center churches, or the charismatic teachers. I believe in the evangelical approach, as Christians are charged to be fishers of men. Well, you have to catch a fish before you can clean it and that approach may provides a less threatening way for curious people to start seeking knowledge of what our faith is about. I think if we Christians are "doing it right" on a daily basis, non-believers, one-hour on Sunday, and the twice a year (Christmas and Easter) followers will want what we have.

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[Maverick]

I'm not trying to provoke here, it's obvious I'm outgunned on this topic lol,

I'll second that LOL thing. Don't think your outgunned at all, and hope you don't feel any attack by those professing faith. It should never be approached that way. Nothing wrong IMV about enjoying a quality musical production. It's just not biblical and since you never made that claim......on with the discussion.

but Wikipedia lists a large number of Christian bigwigs that say the movie is an accurate depiction and even the Pope supposedly said it was. Although later the Church denied he said that.

Those bigwigs would be the object of my disdain. For them? There is NO excuse.

It wasn't accurate in your view?

As stated in other posts, it's very clear we are not to create images of spiritual beings. From the moment the pen hit the paper, this production should never have been condoned by any Biblical standard. Mary played absolutely no part in the Crucifixion and is way over represented in the film. No person could ever withstand the vicious beating depicted by the movie, and this leads to the final point missed on the films premise:

What Gibson totally missed was the mental anguish of Christ, while he focused on physical suffering. Many Christians have been burned alive, boiled alive, crucified, thrown to lions etc etc. Christ's death on the cross was mental/spiritual, as God brought all His wrath for sin down on the one who held no sin. Christ bore the crushing weight of all God's justice in our place. To focus production on physical suffering, rather than the substitutionary atonement for sin is grievous error.

 

[Maverick]

This thread should be in the loading dock.

Agreed....and sure someone will make it so.

 

[Turtle]

The definition of a True Christian depends entirely on whom one is talking to, but it would also appear that in essence, every Christian believes they are the real deal True Christian. Every Christian believes they hear directly from god, that they are inspired and lead by the Holy Spirit, and that they understand the message of the bible correctly, even where other Christians may err. Thus, if anybody claims to be a Christian but believes something different from them, they feel a sense of assurance in claiming the dissenter is not really a True Christian. Whenever atrocities committed by Christians in the name of god are mentioned, for example, the apologists tell us that those perpetrators were not really followers of Christ after all, they are not True Christians, that they were appropriating the Christian message for their own ends and that their warped view of gospel tenets says more about their inherited sinful nature than the true teachings of God. This argument would appear to imply that there is one very simple, unequivocal message within Christianity which is lost on all but True Christians. The question of, "What is a True Christian?" is one that should be able to be answered in one sentence. But it rarely is, because a one-sentence answer both at the same time pigeonholes people into an undefined set of beliefs and opens the door wide to allow too many different beliefs into the mix.

If Christianity is really as clear cut and as straightforward as some Christians would have you believe, then how do divisions in basic beliefs even manifest themselves? Why is there more than one denomination of Christ? If there really is only one true, clear message in the bible, then it should be impossible to distort or pervert that message in any way without it being clear and obvious to anyone who clearly follows that same message. However, when Christianity is examined objectively, and even subjectively, we find that contradictions are rife: what God commands in one chapter, he condemns in another, and teachings upheld by one group are completely ignored by others. Thus, if the bible does have only one message, it is one very mixed and unclear message, open to unique interpretations.

Christians cannot agree on even the most basic of beliefs, such as the relevance of the Saturday Sabbath, alcohol consumption, painted faces or not, pre and post-Tribulation rapture, predestination, or the “correct” way to interpret the prophecies of Revelation and the importance of faith over works. These disagreements, and many others like them are so divisive that they result in other denominations being formed since the Christians caught in the middle can no longer agree and “fellowship” together. As a result, Denomination A becomes convinced that they have the one true and only correct scriptural interpretation and that Denomination B is completely wrong and, by extension no longer following the teachings of Christ. In other words, not really True Christians. Apostates every one of them! Conversely, Denomination B thinks the same of Denomination A. Don't get me started on Denomination C, D and E. See where this is going? Where is the unity? Where is the consistency? Why so many different versions of the One True Way?

Credibility gets stretched, credulity rules when everyone in all of these Denominations are saying the same exact thing about themselves and the Others. It's highly unlikely they are all correct. Impossible, actually. But it's quite possible that one, and only one, is correct. They all believe they are that One.

"Man is the only animal with the One True Religion - several of them." - Mark Twain.

 

[Ragman]

The definition of a True Christian depends entirely on whom one is talking to, . . . .

Roses are reddish, Violets are blueish, if it wasn't for Jesus . . . all Christians would be Jewish.

 

[Maverick]

Turtle is right, from the view of non-believers, Mr Twain included.

Every Christian believes he hears directly from God? LOL Those arguments/statements from non-believers brings a chuckle for sure.....and standard fair. (or is that fare?) Cue the Turtle.

You are correct in assertion that the Church is divided on many points and issues. However, that wasn't near as prevalent following the Protestant Reformation. The Bible of course speaks of the great falling away from the true faith, as the Church becomes more apostate by the day. Put differently, your description is accurate in so much as we see it today.

Does the Bible teach we are to find our "purpose" in life. No
Does it teach we are to be prosperous? No
Does it teach we are to blend in with the world? Absolutely the opposite.

So really, those mega churches, mega pastors, and people who make huge money off these false claims (and the people who follow these lines) are obviously misled. Why? Christ said it Himself......

Matt 10

[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Nutshell.....what you describe is exactly what Christ stated would happen, and part of His purpose for coming. The above people are easy to spot false teachers and even a non-believer could see that. The word of God is described as a sword that divides. If the above persons are reading their own understanding of scripture....with no aid from the Holy Spirit? They are most obviously wrong in interpretation. It's not that hard to see.

 

[WanderngFool]

Dumb question I'm sure but what good is a sword that divides humanity?

 

[Turtle]

Every Christian believes he hears directly from God? LOL Those arguments/statements from non-believers brings a chuckle for sure.....and standard fair. (or is that fare?) Cue the Turtle.

You don't hear God through His Word? Through the words and actions of others? Through the circumstances in which you find yourself? Through that inner voice of peace that tells you whether or not you are on the right path? Every Christian I know will answer yes to every one of those questions. Every Christian I know believes, wholeheartedly, in John 10:27.

Nutshell.....what you describe is exactly what Christ stated would happen, and part of His purpose for coming. The above people are easy to spot false teachers and even a non-believer could see that. The word of God is described as a sword that divides. If the above persons are reading their own understanding of scripture....with no aid from the Holy Spirit? They are most obviously wrong in interpretation. It's not that hard to see.

The problem is, every single denomination says the same exact thing about every other one of them. Without exception.

 

[Maverick]

Dumb question I'm sure but what good is a sword that divides humanity?

Leave it to EO to help pass the weather in Ole Virginny.

The sword is not to divide humanity. Humanity does that all on it's own; sometimes through pride, and sometimes it's the outright shaking a fist at God. One would need an exposition of Genesis for expanding that thought. That's too long, and would bore those who are not bored already.

The sword is the word of God, which cuts both ways. The division within Christendom comes from the scripture interpretation and Christ's teachings, though it's also meant for instruction. There are those, both old and new, who create for themselves their own authority for religious practice. Christ confronted them on a continual basis because they repeatedly rejected the word brought forth, while continuing to espouse OT law.