Reform, indeed

[cheri1122]

State: Mom who shot kids, self during standoff at Texas welfare office denied food stamps - The Washington Post


Love the part about "Besides an 18 page application..."

Wondering how these poor motherless children are going to feel about how society treats the unfortunate....

 

[tbubster]

So mom signs up for help does not complete the application.Is set for a review the next day waits three months to call and find out why she was turned down and somehow its the states fault???

So what her application was 18 pages.When I filled out mine for the owner of the truck it was 22 pages long.From the sounds of it this lady had problems and not just with being turned down for help.

As for the children they are in my prayers.I belive they will see the community come around them and help them.

 

[chefdennis]

From the article:

“This wasn’t like a knee-jerk reaction,” said Baeza, adding that Grimmer felt she was owed restitution of some sort.

Wow, she thought she was "entitled".....Then she trys to kill her kids...like, "if i can't take care of them or you won't give me what i am entitled to, no one gets help them, ill show you all" Talk about selfish....

 

[davekc]

All because the state needed specific information that she was failing or refusing to provide. Doesn't matter that it is a 18 page application. It isn't like she had a job to be at.
Sad story that never should have happened. Wonder what she would have done if she had to take a drug test for those benefits?

 

[Tennesseahawk]

State: Mom who shot kids, self during standoff at Texas welfare office denied food stamps - The Washington Post


Love the part about "Besides an 18 page application..."

Wondering how these poor motherless children are going to feel about how society treats the unfortunate....

Unfortunate? The only unfortunate ones were the kids, and those who had to clean up the mess. Are you blaming society for this one? Maybe so... but only for instilling that this lady had an entitlement. She couldn't even do her homework for her gold star. She thought the gubmint would automatically give her one, cause Obama (might as well be Bush... maybe Gingrich or Romney) likely told her so.

 

[cheri1122]

Silly me - I forgot [just for a minute] how all-knowing you guys are, when it comes to other peoples' thoughts and motives.
See, I thought she might have been a proud person, who didn't find it easy to admit she needed help feeding her kids [cause that's how I'd feel], and she'd been working 2 jobs to do it, [cause that's what I'd do], and for whatever reason, she couldn't anymore.
Maybe it took everything she had to fill out that 18 page application [having to get the information from many sources, and not having all the dates written down, like when I've had to fill out some job apps], and maybe not having enough education to find the language easy to decipher, or to feel sure about the spelling of her answers, but she did it, for her kids. Being turned down [maybe for lack of documentation that Ohio just wouldn't send, in spite of repeated requests] when she was down to her last couple dollars could easily have been just the last straw for an overwhelmed person.
I can imagine that pretty easily, myself, and feel blessed that it's never gotten to that point in my life - but I just can't imagine how so many others can be so certain that somehow, it MUST have been her own fault. We have no idea why she missed the appointment, but that doesn't matter - her fault. If she couldn't satisfy Texas' need for documents [that she didn't have], her fault.
Maybe, if I were a man, and never found a job I couldn't physically handle, or had to worry about who would care for my kids while I work 2 jobs, it'd be easier for me to understand - but I know too well the hurdles single mothers face, and I'm not so sure it was her own fault.
Bet Rick Perry is, though.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Silly me - I forgot [just for a minute] how all-knowing you guys are, when it comes to other peoples' thoughts and motives.
See, I thought she might have been a proud person, who didn't find it easy to admit she needed help feeding her kids [cause that's how I'd feel], and she'd been working 2 jobs to do it, [cause that's what I'd do], and for whatever reason, she couldn't anymore.
Maybe it took everything she had to fill out that 18 page application [having to get the information from many sources, and not having all the dates written down, like when I've had to fill out some job apps], and maybe not having enough education to find the language easy to decipher, or to feel sure about the spelling of her answers, but she did it, for her kids. Being turned down [maybe for lack of documentation that Ohio just wouldn't send, in spite of repeated requests] when she was down to her last couple dollars could easily have been just the last straw for an overwhelmed person.
I can imagine that pretty easily, myself, and feel blessed that it's never gotten to that point in my life - but I just can't imagine how so many others can be so certain that somehow, it MUST have been her own fault. We have no idea why she missed the appointment, but that doesn't matter - her fault. If she couldn't satisfy Texas' need for documents [that she didn't have], her fault.
Maybe, if I were a man, and never found a job I couldn't physically handle, or had to worry about who would care for my kids while I work 2 jobs, it'd be easier for me to understand - but I know too well the hurdles single mothers face, and I'm not so sure it was her own fault.
Bet Rick Perry is, though.

I guess all-knowing gals have the same problem. Her fault? She pulled the trigger. No one else did. She SHOT her two kids! There is NO excuse for that, unless you're protecting them from a group of zombies.

 

[cheri1122]

I can't say what all knowing gals have trouble with, as I'm not one of them. which was kind of the point: the assumptions made that there's no reason to question anything that happened, to see whether the system failed or she did.
In later reports [after stating that the 12 year old girl has died], it came out that the woman has had 'mental issues' [nonspecific] for years. So maybe she thought she was protecting her kids from zombies - but there again, we really don't do much to help people with mental problems, [budget cuts!] and the result is that innocent people suffer the consequences.
A healthy society would recognize that, I think.

 

[tbubster]

I can't say what all knowing gals have trouble with, as I'm not one of them. which was kind of the point: the assumptions made that there's no reason to question anything that happened, to see whether the system failed or she did.
In later reports [after stating that the 12 year old girl has died], it came out that the woman has had 'mental issues' [nonspecific] for years. So maybe she thought she was protecting her kids from zombies - but there again, we really don't do much to help people with mental problems, [budget cuts!] and the result is that innocent people suffer the consequences.
A healthy society would recognize that, I think.

You are doing the same thing you claim we are doing only you are blaming the state and society.You can blame who ever you want it still comes down to the same thing.The welfare rolls in every form have grown in such numbers that yes there are some people who truly need it that dont get it.Untill some are willing to have that conversation about reform so the ones who are just using and scamming the system can be weeded out this will continue to happen.

Like it or not it was this womans own fault she got turned down for a few reasons.See if they just give people the help they say they need with out meeting simple requirments then there would be much more fraud then there is now.Was it not you who in another thread who just called for officals to be fired for not checking out people who claim they need help?How do you have it both ways?How do you give someone the help just because they claim they need it,then call for the firing of those people who okd they help if it turns out those claims of need are false for not doing a better job of verifying the need was real??

Also why the need to take a jab at perry?????????

 

[layoutshooter]

Forced charity is wrong. She is not entitled to other peoples wages. If we refuse to pay her to do nothing, chose to keep our wages the government will shoot us. Good system.

 

[cheri1122]

Forced charity is wrong.
She is not entitled to other peoples wages
If we refuse to pay her to do nothing, chose to keep our wages the government will shoot us.

You should tell the Republicans - they could really use that in their campaigns.

Good system.

As one familiar with intelligence, you know that no 'system' can compensate for flawed or insufficient intelligence.
Nor can it force individuals to possess it.

 

[cheri1122]

You are doing the same thing you claim we are doing only you are blaming the state and society.

Not blaming - questioning. There's a difference.

You can blame who ever you want it still comes down to the same thing.The welfare rolls in every form have grown in such numbers that yes there are some people who truly need it that dont get it.

But all I hear is about the lazy folks who 'don't wanna' work, and the cheats [but not the sophisticated ones, just the everyday losers]. Every mention of someone on 'welfare' or food stamps brings out the same 'it's their own fault' comments.

Untill some are willing to have that conversation about reform so the ones who are just using and scamming the system can be weeded out this will continue to happen.

Ever think officials don't want to have that conversation, because they know the truth: the need is genuine, and rooting out the lowlife scammers at the bottom of the pile won't make a dent in the amounts lost to fraud.

Like it or not it was this womans own fault she got turned down for a few reasons.

Keep saying that - it makes it easier to dismiss people who need help, but it doesn't make it true. We don't know why she was turned down, there's too little info to go on. If she needed docs from the state of Oh, and had requested them numerous times over the 3 months, with no response, is that her fault too?

See if they just give people the help they say they need with out meeting simple requirments then there would be much more fraud then there is now.

An 18 page application [written in that special indecipherable language only the government understands] NOT including 'other documentation' is your idea of simple? Not mine, and if it's something I wouldn't care to tackle, how can people with very limited language skills & resources be expected to handle it?

Was it not you who in another thread who just called for officals to be fired for not checking out people who claim they need help?

I believe I said the state of Wa needs to verify applicants' addresses - a simple thing they don't bother doing. Which is how the chiropracter & his gf scammed the system for big bucks.

How do you have it both ways?How do you give someone the help just because they claim they need it,then call for the firing of those people who okd they help if it turns out those claims of need are false for not doing a better job of verifying the need was real??

Verification is necessary - but I didn't fill out an 18 pg app for a freakin FAST card - that's just asinine to demand from people who need help. Especially as they may not be the most well educated, or rational [bc mental health is ignored, too] to begin with.


Also why the need to take a jab at perry?????????

No need - that was cause I wanted to.

 

[layoutshooter]

If this family was so broke that they could not afford food how could they afford cell service? The girl was posting on her Facebook account and texting during the standoff. If you can afford a total luxury you can afford food. If you cannot afford food you cancel the luxury.

Try only paying your taxes that are required for Constitutionally legal programs, welfare is not one, then see how long until armed Feds come after you.

 

[cheri1122]

If this family was so broke that they could not afford food how could they afford cell service? The girl was posting on her Facebook account and texting during the standoff. If you can afford a total luxury you can afford food. If you cannot afford food you cancel the luxury.

To someone looking for work, a cellphone is a necessity [esp if they have no landline] and internet is practically required for school these days.
Is it ok with you if poor folks have new shoes, [just once a year, less than $20] or do they have to get them from the Goodwill?

Try only paying your taxes that are required for Constitutionally legal programs, welfare is not one, then see how long until armed Feds come after you.

I'd settle for paying the same as say, GE....

Most people really wouldn't enjoy knowing that kids are going hungry - whether their parents are unfortunate or lazy bums.
What if we just feed the kids, let the adults go hungry & sleep under overpasses? Would that suit your sense of civil behavior?

 

[layoutshooter]

I would LOVE to know the entire story here. I would be willing to bet that there is far more to it. It throws up a lot of red flags when they are applying in multiple states. A trick used all the time by welfare fraud people, along with multiple names.

It also sounds like it was more of a mental health rather than a welfare system problem. It also sounds like may dropped the ball here, warnings about here were given and ignored. It goes FAR beyond the need for welfare. IF there was a need.

What gives anyone the right to dictate to me how much of my wages I have to divert from MY family, OUR needs and wants? Take it from me against my will, and give it to others? I had to deny my OWN children a lot of better foods and luxuries to pay my taxes only to watch people on food stamps buy THEIR kids the things that I could not afford for my own. MY family, MY wife comes first. IF and WHEN I have enough to support others I will choose who they are and to what level I will help. NO government, no other person has the right to dictate what or who receives my charity.

 

[davekc]

At the end of the day, it is hard to provide a excuse for what this lady did. Saying or implying she might have been stressed from filling out the application is a tough sell.
If it was that bad or complicated, would we not have others engaged in mayhem and murder due to the process if they are challenged in some way?
I am all for helping folks out, but I don't see giving this lady a pass.

 

[cheri1122]

At the end of the day, it is hard to provide a excuse for what this lady did.

Not hard, it's impossible. There is NO excuse for what she did. But I'd like more details, too - she was in that office for HOURS, before pulling the trigger, why was she so sure her kids would be better off dead? Just assuming she had some level of ability to function, not completely crazy, IOW. Or at least, she wasn't psychotic before she talked to those 'officials', right?

Saying or implying she might have been stressed from filling out the application is a tough sell.

The application was just an example of how the 'money for nothing' mantra is flawed - having too little money is much harder to deal with than people will admit. It might have been the last straw [and a ludicrously heavy one, methinks] for someone without enough resources to cope. Doesn't matter how we slice it, the kids paid the price for it.

If it was that bad or complicated, would we not have others engaged in mayhem and murder due to the process if they are challenged in some way?

How do we know there aren't others, who don't make it quite so obvy or dramatic?
We already know that assistance for mental health has long since been slashed from state budgets, so any of the people not getting help just get dismissed as 'unstable' and if/when they go off the deep end, who questions it?

I am all for helping folks out, but I don't see giving this lady a pass.

Wouldn't even consider giving her a pass - but a healthy and intelligent society would have tried to help [without requiring a thesis and corroboration from another state government] before she got to the end of her rope. It might not have prevented the tragedy, but we'll never know, will we? We'll just shrug & say she was nuts - nothing we could have done about it.
But her surviving child may believe otherwise, methinks - and how many would agree with him? And most important: can we afford to ignore that?
I'm not a bleeding heart, Dave, I'm a pragmatic. If for no reason other than nipping future homegrown antigovernment terrorists in the bud, isn't is smarter to help people become contributing members of society than reject them for whatever obstacles they need help overcoming?
"Businessman first" - if she had succeeded in putting herself and several others into a 'persistent vegetative state', how much would that have cost Rick Perry's government?

 

[tbubster]

Sadly the little boy has also passed.

Keep taking shots at perry if you wish but as long as you want to keep blaming soicty and perry and those republicans then you will never see the problem.In one post in this thread you claim this.


But all I hear is about the lazy folks who 'don't wanna' work, and the cheats [but not the sophisticated ones, just the everyday losers]. Every mention of someone on 'welfare' or food stamps brings out the same 'it's their own fault' comments.


Seems to me if this is all you hear then you are not listening to what people are saying.You see I have yet to see anyone on here call all people who get welfare lazy,or its their own fault.What we have said is there are in fact many who are just like this.But not all.We have said that there are those who truly need it and that for most of us we have no problem helping those who truly need it.Yet when you and others try and twist it as though we are talking about everyone on welfare well it really does not help your cause any.All it does is create the confusion that the right wants to cut everybody off welfare,even though you all know this is not the case.

You can make excuses for why she may or may not have been turned down but ONE she did not complete the app.TWO she did not come back for the interview as required.THIRD she refused to supply texas with proof of how much child support she recived each month.You can say maybe the app was to long and she did not understand it.You can say maybe after repeated request Ohio still would not send the paper work.You see one of the reasons that the state of texas needs paper work from Ohio is to make sure she is still not getting help from Ohio While also trying to get help from texas.