Part IV: An Opposing Viewpoint
- Thread starter Pilgrim
- Start date
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Probably not ..... (unless you happen to be asking the Rev)
BTW, I noticed you failed to answer up ......
Yup - undoubtedly true - but only if you are, like any other junkie, addicted to a steady diet of venom from the various hate-mongering Islamophobes (the US's new cottage industry) ....... afterall, everyone knows ...... it is always better to substitute and adopt a so-called "authority's" views and opinions, rather than relying on your own personal observations of specific individuals, and your own understanding gained from actually reading (without any agenda, other than to just know) said doctrines, and then forming your own informed opinions .....
Besides, it's alot easier too ..... nowhere near the amount of effort required .... just an occasional mindless nod of agreement .....
I ain't gonna touch the poll ...... Turtle already called first dibs .... but he's on a load at the moment .... besides he'd probably do a better job than me anyways .....
Last edited:
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
.... something that will no doubt occupy vast amounts of your time and grey cells ...... contemplating all the possible nefarious reasons and real hidden agenda ......
While I'm quite sure it's something really, really bad ..... we all await your "superior" discernment .... (me especially
)
Last edited:
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
You're saying there really isn't any "leadership" in their religion? Tell that to the Iranians. There may be factions within their religion, but there are certainly leaders of the factions. I am close friends with a helluva lot of Catholics, and those relationships have no influence over my feelings about some of the stuff that comes out of the Vatican. I just don't see a parallel there.
Islamic doctrine maybe?
Islamic Doctrine (aqidah), Muslim World, Islam is the only Solution to World's Problem, World of Islam
The above link is quote informative. If you scroll down to Belief in Prophethood you'll also find the following quote:
"Islamic doctrine leans on the belief of the prophethood of Muhammad supported by the miracles. One of these miracles is the everlasting and unchangeable Qur'an, which cannot be challenged nor changed..."
And from this holy book which "cannot be challenged nor changed", we get:
"O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people." - 5:54
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme" - 8:39
"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them." - 9:5
"Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another." - 48:25
Of course there are also plenty of verses about love, peace and harmony; also those regarding the subjugation or conversion of non-believers; it's easy to find on the web. You're right that it's good for everyone to educate themselves about this religion, in addition to others. It's especially enlightening to be familiar with the philosophy that guides leaders like Imam Rauf.
I just don't see that happening. However, "taking over the country" shouldn't be confused with a large percentage of the population wanting to see our cultural values return to the Judeo-Christian principles upon which the nation was founded. That would include allowing the freedom of religion to which the muslims are entitled.
Right now the Imam Rauf and his backers have strayed away from that principle and turned this issue into a PR nightmare. It's perceived as a contest of wills - an inflexibility on his part instead of a willingness to work with the community. And people wonder why the people's attitude toward Islam rates so poorly in the polls.
We are truly a nation of geniuses ..... after the comments directly above, how could there be any remaining doubts ........ [/QUOTE]
I've seen non stop muslim this == islam that OVER OVER AGAIN AND FRANKLY HAD ENOUGH..one thing that's clear --- they keep PUSHING! They don't respect other's, Why would I defend their right to build a victory monument??
and SPORT == they just busted 3 in Canada, apparently commercial buildings are still hard to recruit and stage attack's in NYC
[/QUOTE]I've seen non stop muslim this == islam that OVER OVER AGAIN AND FRANKLY HAD ENOUGH..one thing that's clear --- they keep PUSHING! They don't respect other's, Why would I defend their right to build a victory monument??
and SPORT == they just busted 3 in Canada, apparently commercial buildings are still hard to recruit and stage attack's in NYC
Last edited:
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Tell that to the Iranians? hate to break it to you, they may follow Shi'a division of the religion but there are difference ideas of that sect within the borders of Iran. There are different leaders of those differences as there are with Christian churches.
You do know that there are more Jews and Christians in Iran than in Iraq?
Yes it does but I have a Christian study book from 1932 which has pretty much the same thing in it - almost word for word. In it, there are some pretty good things but also pretty bad. The point is that all three religions we are talking about base their entire religion on the same exact thing.
AND?
The bible has been adulterated to fit society in both form and function, even in the most recent versions, neutering it. This has happened time and time again and as it was explained to me in a non-offensive manner by a number of Muslims, the Quran did not follow the same path as either the bible or torah has but remain as it was transcribed.
Maybe it would behoove you to actually know the history of that area, the idolity that is in the book and what the Muslims were fighting.
The acceptance of both the Jews and the Christians were not something that was taken lightly, but it was done. Even today, there is a lot more history we tend to discount and many only look at verses in a book as to evidence of the excuse to kill. Isn't this just the same excuses as the Catholics and other Christian sects made?
BUT I think you missed the point, an Imam may be a leader but he is a limited leader. He is limited to his Mosque as a priest is limited to his Church.
You don't see it because you are used to it. It isn't that they want to return to "Judeo-Christian" values, it is that they are defining those values to fit their political needs and wants. Falwell, Robertson, and the black liberation church all have that same thing in common and this is what I am driving at. The fringe "kill the abortion doctor" groups out there are the far right, they are the problem because they don't see acceptance of others as any way to go. As the same with the three I mentioned, falwell, robertson and black liberation church.
Well I can't make this clear enough - I don't give a crap about him or his followers, that is not the issue for me. The PR nightmare hasn't been perpetrated by him or his followers but by those who have to gain ratings and rally their followers while. I tend to agree with the Beck/Rush/et al. critics that these are the group fanning the flames with a play on ignorance - not the Mosque supporters. The latest BS from Beck is he thinks that we need to reclaim the civil rights movement for some reason, and this may also include the same type of rhetoric over religious rights we heard before.
Last edited:
The NYC Cordoba Mosque, now Park 51, was originally named Cordoba Mosque after the one in Spain. It is a symbol of Muslim victory over infidel enemies. Just as our liberal friends renamed discrimination to affirmative action when it didn't play well our Muslim "friends" have renamed the mosque. Why can't they build on the site they already own that's 4 blocks away? Why can't they build on land offered to them free? Because they must build on ground zero land so their victory symbol stands on the site of their victory over the evil infidels. I don't really care if you agree, whether the polite ones or the jerks. You have every right to be wrong. Have at it. Oh, and since I don't use copious amounts of time or brain cells to be a jerk I had plenty of surplus for the minimal amount it took to understand the significance of Cordoba and the name game.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Sorry Leo, you didn't have to spend any time on that research, it was too obvious to many of us what the Cordoba Mosque meant here.
By the way it isn't a symbol of Muslim victory over infidel enemies nor a sign of any victory for the Muslims for that matter. Again you slipped on history because if anything it is a sign of defeat.
The Muslim victors of the conquest of Spain bought a Church at that site and turned it into a Mosque. The Christian Visigoths owned the church and didn't seem to be wiped off the face of the earth.
For over three hundred years it was in Muslim hands until the 13th century when Cordoba was conquer by the Spanish and it was turned into a church. It still is a Church the Cathedral of the Assumption of the Virgin but has a bigger purpose. Kind of amazing that there are Muslims who pray there and it has a dual name.
Why would these Muslims call it the Cordoba Mosque?
Maybe because they thought this one may also serve as a dual purpose place of worship.
By the way it isn't a symbol of Muslim victory over infidel enemies nor a sign of any victory for the Muslims for that matter. Again you slipped on history because if anything it is a sign of defeat.
The Muslim victors of the conquest of Spain bought a Church at that site and turned it into a Mosque. The Christian Visigoths owned the church and didn't seem to be wiped off the face of the earth.
For over three hundred years it was in Muslim hands until the 13th century when Cordoba was conquer by the Spanish and it was turned into a church. It still is a Church the Cathedral of the Assumption of the Virgin but has a bigger purpose. Kind of amazing that there are Muslims who pray there and it has a dual name.
Why would these Muslims call it the Cordoba Mosque?
Maybe because they thought this one may also serve as a dual purpose place of worship.
witness23
Veteran Expediter
From Wikipedia:
This is why they are dragging Imam Rauf's name through the mud so that they can portray him as an Islam Extremist. People who are opposed the community center cannot argue the fact the center shouldn't be built solely on the fact they just don't want it there, they have to demonize the man and the organization so that you cannot trust them.
This is why they are dragging Imam Rauf's name through the mud so that they can portray him as an Islam Extremist. People who are opposed the community center cannot argue the fact the center shouldn't be built solely on the fact they just don't want it there, they have to demonize the man and the organization so that you cannot trust them.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Leo, I think it took you more than 4 seconds but also I think you are knowledgeable while comprehend things on your own. I just read pretty much the same thing on another forum, which you are not a member of and it strikes me as misinformation floating around.
Again it is not a symbol of a victory, but of defeat.
By the way you may do well to do some reading on the history of Spain and what the Christians did there.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Try changing the channel off Fox News ..... or better yet, just turn the dam(n) thing off .... it will rot your brain ....
Ahhh .... another one of those "they/them/their" guys ..... 'nuff said ....
Well, given that buildings are inanimate objects, I don't think that we have a whole lot to worry about, in terms of them being recruited ....
BTW, you are aware aren't you, that those arrested in Canada were not arrested in a mosque, or in a commercial building ? ....... they were arrested in townhouses/apartments ....
This whole thing just goes to show how the program "Idol", in it's various national iterations, is truly the root of all evil:
Failure To Make Cut On Idol Drives Man To Terror
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Is your point there's a large subset of Islam that wants every single one of us dead? If so then your point is proven. If not, then you've missed the point. Are there large numbers who could care less? Yes. Is the subset that wants us dead large and constantly growing and working toward the goal of seeing every non-Muslim on the planet dead or converted? Also yes. You are entitled to think what you want about that and about me however I am right whether I express it the way you believe it should be expressed or not.