Part IV: An Opposing Viewpoint

[Turtle]

Funny you picked that picture of a communist nation suppressing freedom. Kinda like the shades of things to come here if the current trend continues, eh?

No, not at all. It's TV, not real life, right? So that couldn't happen.

I'm just saying. You can bury your head in the sand of rest, relaxation and ignorance, all the while lamenting on how things should be the way they used to be and remaining oblivious to how they really are now, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that TV (the good, the bad and the ugly of it) is, in fact, a significant part of real life for society. And just because someone chooses to rest and relaxate differently than you do, doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

 

[bryanvolsfan]

Now, all of a sudden, liberals are protecting "Freedom of religion" WOW, Obama really is changing things!
What would the Muslim world think if Franklin Graham wanted to build a CHRISTIAN Church in the Middle East? It would probably be blown-up, some psycho terrorist in the name of ALLAH, would walk in with a bomb straped to his chest, shout something no one understands, then blow himself and the building to pieces. But, that would be defended because Franklin Graham wasnt "sensative" to the feelings of Islam and he holds "extreme" views and hates Muslims!
Liberals speak of womens rights, but it is Islam that degrades women! Liberals speak of "gay rights" but it is Islam who execute homosexuals! Now, Liberals want "freedom of religion, but it is Islam that calls for murdering NON-MUSLIMS!
Liberals MIGHT want to check out Sharia law before they defend Islam.

 

[layoutshooter]

No, not at all. It's TV, not real life, right? So that couldn't happen.

I'm just saying. You can bury your head in the sand of rest, relaxation and ignorance, all the while lamenting on how things should be the way they used to be and remaining oblivious to how they really are now, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that TV (the good, the bad and the ugly of it) is, in fact, a significant part of real life for society. And just because someone chooses to rest and relaxate differently than you do, doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

Oh Turtle, MOST of what we were talking about was the Beck world etc. The NEWS programs are only SLIGHTLY better than the others. The rest is all fantasy.

I am all too aware of how things are. I don't CARE how any one else finds their entertainment. The fact still remains that a VERY large part of what is on TV and in the movies is NOT real life, never has been, never will be. I also don't care if anyone likes what I do for fun or not, just don't try to stop me. (not that you would want to) THEN, reality sets in for all parties.

 

[witness23]

What would the Muslim world think if Franklin Graham wanted to build a CHRISTIAN Church in the Middle East?

*sigh*....we are not a Muslim country and we do not live in the Middle East. That is what's great about this country, we have the freedom of religion protected by the 1st amendment.

It would probably be blown-up, some psycho terrorist in the name of ALLAH, would walk in with a bomb straped to his chest, shout something no one understands, then blow himself and the building to pieces.

Yep, I am sure that is exactly how it would go down.

Liberals speak of womens rights, but it is Islam that degrades women! Liberals speak of "gay rights" but it is Islam who execute homosexuals! Now, Liberals want "freedom of religion, but it is Islam that calls for murdering NON-MUSLIMS!

Again, we live in America, not in a Muslim nation.

Liberals MIGHT want to check out Sharia law before they defend Islam.

Just as Glenn Beck and others are perverting the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there are fringe extremists in the Muslim world that pervert the Qur'an and Sharia Law.

 

[Turtle]

Now, all of a sudden, liberals are protecting "Freedom of religion" WOW, Obama really is changing things!

I don't recall liberals ever saying people shouldn't have freedom of religion.

What would the Muslim world think if Franklin Graham wanted to build a CHRISTIAN Church in the Middle East?

There is no freedom of religion in the Muslim world. Freedom of religion is a relatively new concept, and one that is not ll that widely practiced. Most countries have an official religion, actually.

Liberals speak of womens rights, but it is Islam that degrades women!

Many other religions, including Christianity, degrade women. Just in different ways, but degradation is degradation in any form.

Liberals speak of "gay rights" but it is Islam who execute homosexuals!

Not to worry, Islam has a long way to go to catch up to the other religions, like Christianity, in the numbers of homosexuals murdered because their religion says so.

Now, Liberals want "freedom of religion, but it is Islam that calls for murdering NON-MUSLIMS!

Christianity says the same thing about non-Christians. It's right there in the Bible, quite plainly stated.

Liberals MIGHT want to check out Sharia law before they defend Islam.

And those against Islam might want to check out Sharia law from a source that's also not already biased against Islam before they continue to attack Islam. The number one fatal flaw of those who give Sharia law a cursory examination, and then come to a conclusion, is that they look at it in comparison to western law and not within the context of Islam and Islamic law. And in order to look at it in the proper context, you first have to learn about and understand Islam, something that few are willing to bother with because it requires effort.

It's easy to say that they're different than us, therefor they're wrong and they're not as good as us. It's easy to say I learned all I need to know about Islam on 911.

After all, why bother learning when ignorance is instantaneous?

 

[witness23]

Oh Turtle, MOST of what we were talking about was the Beck world etc. The NEWS programs are only SLIGHTLY better than the others. The rest is all fantasy.

Well that "Beck" world, the fantasy world that you speak of is influencing a lot of people that do not see it as fantasy and take his word literally. Like you and others in here that like to compare ratings to popularity, Beck has a lot of followers and definately isn't because of his loving personality. All one has to do is look at what may transpire today at the Lincoln Memorial.

The fact still remains that a VERY large part of what is on TV and in the movies is NOT real life, never has been, never will be.

What a revelation, I never knew that. Now you are just insulting peoples intelligence layout, but I am glad you are here to point out the obvious. No one in here accused you of living in a fantasy world bro.

 

[layoutshooter]

"Well that "Beck" world, the fantasy world that you speak of is influencing a lot of people that do not see it as fantasy and take his word literally. Like you and others in here that like to compare ratings to popularity, Beck has a lot of followers and definately isn't because of his loving personality. All one has to do is look at what may transpire today at the Lincoln Memorial."

How is THIS even ANY different than any OTHER event, right or left wing? How is "Becks" influence on people any better or worse than some "left wing wacko" trying to do the same thing?

I don't compare ratings, at least I don't think I have, since I have never seen them. Ratings only reflect how many watch or listen to a show. They do NOT reflect WHY they watch that show or WHAT the watcher believes .

I would even be willing to bet that there will be fewer "right wing wackos" there at the Lincoln Memorial than there would be "left wing wackos" if it was a left wing rally.

People can ONLY be influenced (yeah Turtle, I know, everyone is influenced by everyone and everything they see) by anyone if they CHOOSE to be. How YOU or I react to ANY stimuli is OUR choice. Same with everyone else. You don't like Beck for what ever reason so therefor this is bad. I don't care either way. I am not there, would NOT be if I could have been.

NO ONE speaks for me. I am NOT left wing. I am NOT right wing. I believe in our Constitution. Period. ANYONE, right or left, that attempts to destroy or overturn (by other than legal means) that document is my enemy and will be treated as such. I don't give a flip WHO it is or WHAT their job is. I took that oath before man and GOD, to protect and defend our Constitution. Oaths are for life. When I take an oath I MEAN it!! Just because I am no longer in the service does NOT mean that responsibility has been removed.

By the way, I was not MEANING to insult people when I said that MOST of TV was fantasy. You would not believe how many people I run into that cannot accept that. I have met MANY people that think that IF they see it on TV it MUST BE REAL!! I bet you have too.

 

[Turtle]

Like it or not, good or bad, TV is a part of our life, society and culture. And it should not be so easily dismissed as irrelevant fantasy, any more than one should dismiss the reading of books of fiction as irrelevant fantasy.

How is THIS even ANY different than any OTHER event, right or left wing? How is "Becks" influence on people any better or worse than some "left wing wacko" trying to do the same thing?

It's not. People liked to talk about the "rock star" following of Obama, yet the same exact thing can be seen with Beck. Some will tell you that Beck's followers are different from the mindless followers of Obama, and they would be wrong. There's no difference.

I would even be willing to bet that there will be fewer "right wing wackos" there at the Lincoln Memorial than there would be "left wing wackos" if it was a left wing rally.

I'll take that bet.

People can ONLY be influenced (yeah Turtle, I know, everyone is influenced by everyone and everything they see) by anyone if they CHOOSE to be. How YOU or I react to ANY stimuli is OUR choice.

People are influenced by what they are influenced by, often whether they choose to be influenced by it or not. Sometimes people will recognize they are being influenced by something and repel it, but oftentimes they don't have the ability to choose because the influence is either subtle enough, or because it already fits with what they believe.

By the way, I was not MEANING to insult people when I said that MOST of TV was fantasy. You would not believe how many people I run into that cannot accept that. I have met MANY people that think that IF they see it on TV it MUST BE REAL!! I bet you have too.

Well, discounting the people who believe that Reality TV shows are reality, and those who believe Soaps are the daily lives of real people, television is more than anything a reflection of us and who we are. News shows, and shows passing themselves off as news shows, have a dramatic influence on those who watch them. Same as "I read it in the paper, so it must be true!" And now we have the same thing on the Internet, where people read it and believe it.

People by their very nature want to be led, to blindly follow leaders. This includes all people, even those who say, "Not me!" and then insist on being led by something else, like, say, the Constitution. Some people are simply more easily led than others. Some will at least question things, others will blindly follow their Garmin into a lake.

 

[layoutshooter]

People pick and choose what they want to believe in our who they want to be led by or IF they want to be lead. Some choose to lead rather than be led. Everyone has their own beliefs. Beck's rally is NO different than the one that the Rev. Al Sharpton is leading today. I do wonder why witness has not mentioned THAT rally? I would be interested in knowing that. Seems strange that he did not comment on it. Does he agree with it therefor don't talk about it? Inquiring minds want to know.

A true story for Turtle, it kinda explains how some people believe about TV:

I was working at Cabela's. Showing some kids the fish in the tanks. There were a few older women in there. Well, the big muskie we had was "eying up" a small white bass, I could hear the "dinner bell" going off in that muskies head.

Needless to say that muskie "nailed" that white bass, ate it, raw, right on the spot. The kids thought it was "cool" One of the older ladies "flipped out" She was horrified that muskie ate that other fish. She stated that muskie should behave better and not eat it's "roommates", that it needed to act more like the "nice fish" on cartoons. That THOSE cartoon fish KNOW how to act and that muskie should watch those shows to learn just how to behave.

True story

I learned two things from that episode. One: there are some nutty people out there. Two: my bait presentation was not as good as it could be when fishing for muskie! At least I have some control over the second one.

 

[RLENT]

Who knows what is real or not on the news shows/talk shows etc. They only tell us what they want us to know and ALWAYS slant it or leave out things that does not fit their needs. Nothing new there, it has always been that way. That is just ONE of the reasons things are so messed up now.

Mmmmm .... that sorta sounds like what the government (or someone who works for them) would do ..........

Funny you picked that picture of a communist nation suppressing freedom. Kinda like the shades of things to come here if the current trend continues, eh?

To come ?

Where the **** have you been ?

 

[greg334]

Just as Glenn Beck and others are perverting the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there are fringe extremists in the Muslim world that pervert the Qur'an and Sharia Law.

SO I am going to ask when did Beck start his own church or re-write the bible?

To be exact I have yet to hear him say anything that has perverted any thing to do with his religious beliefs unless you are saying Mormon religion has done just that, perverted Christianity right?

I won't even touch the subject of the bible outside of this - can't a revision be considered a perversion?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Are the Republicans terminally stupid, or are they just playing the dangerous fool?
In either case, the irrational attack on Muslims everywhere by the GOP's leadership is not only deeply subversive with regard to the American ideal of religious tolerance but also poses a profound threat to our national security. Nor does it help that some top Democrats, like Harry Reid, are willing to demean Muslims even as we fight two wars in which victory depends on our ability to convey a respect for their religion.

Just ask Gen. David Petraeus, who is leading the war without end to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in Afghanistan, how helpful it is to the Taliban for American politicians to identify all Muslims with terrorism. Or to the theocratic leaders of Iran who justify their hard line with the insistence that the U.S. is obsessively anti-Muslim.

Demonization of the Muslim religion is what this brouhaha is all about. Talk of the sensitivity of the victims of Sept. 11, ignoring those who were Muslim, is just camouflage.

It is as absurd as it would be to blame all religious Jews for the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, killed by one gunman from a fanatical Jewish fringe group, or to ban the erection of an Orthodox synagogue anywhere near Rabin's grave. As irrational an act of scapegoating as blaming all ethnic Germans for the acts of Nazis, many of whom claimed to be God-fearing Christians.

 

[Turtle]

A true story for Turtle, it kinda explains how some people believe about TV:

Not just TV.

Back when I was a manager at Fuddruckers, I would sometimes don the hard hat and lab coat and spend time in the butcher shop deboning a cow. Fuddruckers got their meat as hanging forequarters rather than pre-ground and frozen. Mostly it's just straightforward deboning, then grind it all up for the hamburger meat, but there are some actual butcher cuts involved, particularly that involving the rib roll and a few other things.

Anyway, one day I was in there and finished slicing up a rib roll for ribeye steak sandwiches, and one of the employees had been watching for quite a while. I exited the butcher shop with a fresh tray of ribeye steaks and this girl exclaimed, "That's gross!"

I asked her is she was a vegetarian or something. She said that no, she ate steaks all the time, but that cutting up a cow for them was disgusting.

I asked her, "Where do you think steaks come from?"

She replied, "Kroger"

Seriously

 

[greg334]

OVM did you write this?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

OVM did you write this?

nope...forgot the credits...


ROBERT SCHEER: Show religious tolerance at ground zero

 

[layoutshooter]

Not just TV.

Back when I was a manager at Fuddruckers, I would sometimes don the hard hat and lab coat and spend time in the butcher shop deboning a cow. Fuddruckers got their meat as hanging forequarters rather than pre-ground and frozen. Mostly it's just straightforward deboning, then grind it all up for the hamburger meat, but there are some actual butcher cuts involved, particularly that involving the rib roll and a few other things.

Anyway, one day I was in there and finished slicing up a rib roll for ribeye steak sandwiches, and one of the employees had been watching for quite a while. I exited the butcher shop with a fresh tray of ribeye steaks and this girl exclaimed, "That's gross!"

I asked her is she was a vegetarian or something. She said that no, she ate steaks all the time, but that cutting up a cow for them was disgusting.

I asked her, "Where do you think steaks come from?"

She replied, "Kroger"

Seriously

Yeah, I know what you mean. There are FAR too many people out there that are just no longer in touch with reality. Too far removed from nature to know that it even exists.

 

[LDB]

I don't recall liberals ever saying people shouldn't have freedom of religion.

No, I didn't go get examples but there are plenty of instances of restrictions put on Christians for prayer, Bible possession etc. etc..

 

[greg334]

Where leo? Schools?

 

[RLENT]

No, I didn't go get examples but there are plenty of instances of restrictions put on Christians for prayer, Bible possession etc. etc..

I think that you will find, by and large, that most restrictions of which you are speaking - however misguided a few of them may be - generally have to with governmental entities being involved in matters of religion, where they ought not be.

IOW, the separation of church and state .....

Of course, there are some folks that don't espouse that premise - and ignoring the Founders admonitions, would love to see government involved in, and pushing, religion ..... provided it's their own particular flavor ......

 

[LDB]

Schools are one problem area. Christian students are told they can't pray and Muslims have special prayer rooms built for them. Why can't Christians pray on campus? Don't even begin to bring up the separation clause as that has nothing to do with it and is NOT applicable nor did the Founders intend it to be. Believe that to be the case if you want but anyone believing so is wrong.

For anyone who doesn't like it there's a simple solution. Ignore it. Go elsewhere. Either one works. I worked with several Muslims, about 8-10 out of about 50 total people, for about a year. They observed Ramadan, said their prayers, etc. and did so at work too. When I had to conduct business with one of the other guys and a coworker was praying I'd speak quietly to minimize disturbing him and I'd ignore him. They talked about the baseball and football games like everyone else, and stupid golf, and any/all sorts of topics. They were some of the primary set who aren't out to kill every one of us, at least as far as any of us knew. That doesn't change the fact there's a subset who want us all dead and will do everything they can to kill as many as they can.