Part IV: An Opposing Viewpoint

witness23

Veteran Expediter
I see your point; but the reason I'm saying that it's a big deal is because it's been turned into a big deal by politicians and the media.

You say politicians and and the media has turned this into a big deal and you are absolutely correct. You should add one more entity to that list and that is the blagoshpere. If you remember our friend aristotle first posted this story back in May from the Drudge Report:

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/soapbox/41785building-mosque-near-world-trade-center.html

And this from the one and only chef, from pajamas media

Pajamas Media » Ground Zero Imam: ‘I Don’t Believe in Religious Dialogue’


It officially became a big national deal when BHO made it an issue at his Ramadan dinner.

It was already a big deal before he even commented on the situation. If he hadn't commented at all, then the Republicans, Fox News and the blagosphere would've been up in arms asking, "Where is our leadership in this matter".

Here's the problem, should the community center be built in that location? That's for New Yorker's to decide. The issue I have is with Fox News Channel, the Republicans and the blagoshpere just making things up, taking things out of context and dragging the Imam Rauf's name through the mud and painting all Mulsims with a broad terrorist brush, all for political gain.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Rlent,

I am speechless. Viagra?

Witness, the cultural center is a New York issue to a point. BUT the second they included any land beyond the WTC complex that has nothing to do with the disaster, it became a national issue. NYC doesn't own the rights to 9/11, which they think they do - it is a national disaster.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Actually the entire humongous human race seems rather innocuous with assorted large groups of undesirables and the occassional insulting know it all perfect specimen (not) thrown in.
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
Also, I wanted to shed some light on the article from Pajamas Media that chef posted back in May and its author:
Pajamas Media Ground Zero Imam: ‘I Don’t Believe in Religious Dialogue’

Exclusive new translations from Arabic websites reveal Imam Faisel Abdul Rauf seriously misleads New Yorkers about his intention to infiltrate Shariah law through his Ground Zero mosque.

May 27, 2010- by Walid Shoebat

From Wikepedia:

Walid Shoebat (Arabic: وليد شويبات‎) is a Palestinian immigrant to the United States. He was born to a Palestinian father and American mother, and is a former PLO militant.[1] This description has been questioned by some Middle East scholars.[2] Shoebat came to public attention by becoming an ardent critic of Islam, and supporter of Israel.

Shoebat's account of his life
According to the biography on his official website (WalidShoebat.com), Shoebat was born in Bethlehem, the grandson of the Mukhtar of Beit Sahour, whom Shoebat describes as an associate of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. Shoebat's great grandfather, Abdullah Ali Awad-Allah, was also a fighter and close associate of both Abdul Qader and Haj Amin Al-Husseini.[citation needed] Shoebat joined the Palestine Liberation Organization in his youth, and was involved in attacks against Israel.[citation needed] Upon his release, Shoebat continued his anti-Israeli activism until he emigrated to the United States, where he became involved with the Arab Student Organization at Loop College in Chicago.[citation needed] Shortly afterwards Walid worked as a software engineer and became a US citizen. In 1993, Walid converted to Christianity after studying the Jewish Bible for 6 months in response to a challenge from his wife, initially trying to persuade her into converting to Islam.

Supposed bombing of Bank Leumi
Shoebat claimed that he threw a bomb at Bank Leumi, an Israeli bank, in Bethlehem.[1] However, the bank has no record of the incident. Also, Israeli newspapers at that time did not report any such incident.[3] The authenticity of Shoebat's account has been disputed by many sources.

The Jerusalem Post also disputed the authenticity of Shoebat's account of his terrorist history. The paper stated that Shoebat claimed bombing has been rejected both by Bank Leumi, which claims no such attack took place, and by Shoebat's own relatives. The Post said that Shoebat had contradicted himself on this matter. When, in 2008, the Jerusalem Post asked him if there were news reports about the bombing, he said,[1]

I don't know. I didn't read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days.
But, in 2004, he had told Britain's Sunday Telegraph,

I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.
During a telephone interview with the Post, Shoebat was unable to recall the date, or the time of year, of the attack. While Shoebat says he was pressured by teachers to adopt an extreme Islamic philosophy. The Jerusalem Post article reported that his uncle, who still lives in Bethlehem said that religion did not play a major role in his education, and that he had actually left Bethlehem by age 16.[1]

On April 9, 2008, Shoebat responded to the Jerusalem Post's skepticism on that paper's op-ed page. He wrote that the Jerusalem Post had been duped and that the sources they interviewed who disputed his own account of his upbringing, including his relatives, were themselves involved in terrorism, and want to see him discredited. He also claims that reporter did not interview reputable witnesses offered to him who would confirm the bombing operation of Bank Leumi.[4] He also posted a response on his website.

Views
After the September 11 attacks in 2001, Shoebat became an active advocate against Islamism and a fervent supporter of the State of Israel. He has appeared on mainstream media around the world and has been portrayed as an expert witness on a number of documentaries on Islamism.[6]

Shoebat argues that parallels exist between radical Islam and Nazism. He says, "Secular dogma like Nazism is less dangerous than Islamofascism that we see today ... because Islamofascism has a religious twist to it; it says 'God the Almighty ordered you to do this'.... It is trying to grow itself in fifty-five Muslim states. So potentially, you could have a success rate of several Nazi Germanys, if these people get their way."[7]

He is the founder of the Walid Shoebat Foundation, an organization that claims to "work to fight for Israel in the Media [sic]." [8]

Shoebat believes Israel should retake the Gaza Strip, as it is Jewish by right. He says, "if a Jew has no right to Gaza, then he has no right to Jaffa or Haifa either." He advocates that Israel deport anyone who denies its right to exist, "even if they were born there."

Criticism
Critics, such as Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations have questioned Shoebat's story as well as those of other alleged converts from Islamic terrorism, saying they are fundamental Christians falsely claiming to be former Muslim terrorists.[9] Academic professors and others who have heard Shoebat and the two other evangelists he sometimes lectures with (Zachariah Anani and Kamal Saleem), complain they are too old to have been recruited for Islamic terror as teenagers since the ideology of Islamic jihad attacks "only became prevalent in the late 1980s," and the men are all middle age. Skeptics question as to why Shoebat has been able to retain his US citizenship, if it is true that he was involved in acts of terror.[10]

The Jerusalem Post, states that Shoebat has profited from his story that he was formerly a Muslim terrorist, but has rejected Islam for Christianity.[1]

When the Post asked Shoebat, whether the Walid Shoebat Foundation is a registered charity, he said that it was registered in Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania State Attorney's office said it had no record of such a charity. When asked again, Shoebat claimed it was registered under a different name, but that he was not aware of the Foundation's registered name, nor any other details, which were known only to his manager. Dr. Joel Fishman, of the Allegany County Law Library in Pennsylvania, expressed doubts Walid Shoebat Foundation's donation process. He noted that if the money were being given to a registered charity, the charity would have to make annual reports to the state and federal government.[1]

Shoebat says that Daniel Pipes has supported him and his claims.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDB
There are societies where they will be part of the majority, almost to the exclusion of all others.

They ?

They who ?
I think he's probably talking about Italy, where 97.2% of the population is Catholic and the other 2.8% are being heavily lobbied. Or maybe Mexico, where 95.3% is Catholic. Or Poland, or Ecuador, or Columbia, or Argentina, or the Philippines, where all are well above the 90% mark. Or, maybe he's talking about those Lutherans in Denmark and Norway and Sweden. Maybe Thailand where it's 95% Buddhist.

Maybe he's talking about the Squirrel Hill section in Pittsburgh, which is comprised nearly entirely of Jews.

Or he might even be talking about Kenedy County down in Texas, where 95.65% of the entire county is Catholic. Texas has 12 counties like that where, you know, almost to the exclusion of all others.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
An excellent example of dismissing something as irrelevant because it doesn't fit a preconceived notion. The rest of what you stated (that I won't bother to quote here) is more of the same thing. It's all a justification for the prejudice.
"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims."

Preconceived notion has nothing to do with it; when one stops to think about the Imam's above statement it's evident that it doesn't make a valid point. Of the blood on the hands of the US, how much of it is innocent muslim blood? Besides, is this statement supposed to reflect justification for al-Qaeda's repeated acts of war against us - especially the 9/11 attacks?

Regarding the rest of my statement that you didn't bother to quote; it in no way justifies prejudice, assuming said prejudice even exists. Considering the military and monetary foreign aid we continuously offer on behalf of muslims - both moderate and radical - the US has repeatedly demonstrated it's lack of prejudice against moderate muslims. The existance of prejudice toward the terrorist muslims is certainly justified, although there are some bleeding hearts - including the Imam Rauf - that say we're supposed to understand them and their plight.

Prejudice is not the issue in the case of the Groud Zero Mosque issue; everybody agrees they have the right to build the structure there. It's just not the proper thing to do, considering the feelings of the people of New York City and the country at large. This deal is just another instance of a minority group whining about racism and bigotry when they don't get their way. It's the Imam and his backers that are being completely insensitive towards the non-muslims. Maybe they're the ones that are prejudiced.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims."

Preconceived notion has nothing to do with it; when one stops to think about the Imam's above statement it's evident that it doesn't make a valid point. Of the blood on the hands of the US, how much of it is innocent muslim blood?
Well, if you believe that all Muslims are out to kill us, then there is no such thing as innocent Muslim blood, right? But his statement is an interesting one, depending on how you want to look at it, and is the mirror image of the above. Like the phrase, "of innocent non Muslims." That can be taken to mean that al Qaeda has little or no blood on its hands from innocent non Muslims, because any non Muslim is not innocent since all non Muslims are an enemy of Islam. I'm actually surprised that you didn't take that stance already.

Besides, is this statement supposed to reflect justification for al-Qaeda's repeated acts of war against us - especially the 9/11 attacks?
I don't know, but it probably is. If you look at the motivations of al Qaeda and why they feel a holy jihad is justified (that the US in particular and the West in general have repeatedly stuck our noses in the Muslim's business and tried to assert our power over them), then it's a valid statement. All you have to do is look at what prompted all this terrorist crap. Osama bin Laden told us straight up what the problems were, how to fix them, and what would happen if we refused.

Regarding the rest of my statement that you didn't bother to quote; it in no way justifies prejudice, assuming said prejudice even exists. Considering the military and monetary foreign aid we continuously offer on behalf of muslims - both moderate and radical - the US has repeatedly demonstrated it's lack of prejudice against moderate muslims. The existance of prejudice toward the terrorist muslims is certainly justified, although there are some bleeding hearts - including the Imam Rauf - that say we're supposed to understand them and their plight.
In order to fix this, you have to understand where they are coming from. At the very least, we should subscribe to "Know thine enemy as thyself", and we are making no effort at all to do that. We don't care about their motivations, because whatever we do is right, and all who oppose it are wrong.

Prejudice is not the issue in the case of the Groud Zero Mosque issue; everybody agrees they have the right to build the structure there.
If that were true, then there wouldn't be anyone trying to prevent them from building based on some legal technicality. Most of that has been dismissed, but a lot of people tried very hard to legally prevent them from building there.

It's just not the proper thing to do, considering the feelings of the people of New York City and the country at large.
On that one we agree. I think it's stupid to build it there, for a number of reasons, both on their part and what is likely to result.

This deal is just another instance of a minority group whining about racism and bigotry when they don't get their way.
Is that how you see this? Really? Some minority special interest group wanting special privileges? The reality is that they have a perfectly legal right to build there, and it's the mob mentality of the majority who is trying to squash the rights of the minority. They're whining about racism and bigotry because that's precisely what it is.

It's the Imam and his backers that are being completely insensitive towards the non-muslims. Maybe they're the ones that are prejudiced.
Are they somehow required to be more sensitive to non-Muslims? If so, that would go a long way in curbing unwanted and extremely annoying proselytizing by Christian evangelicals, lemme tell ya, because they're one of the most insensitive groups I know.

Hey, I know, let's all grab our favorite pocket knife, go to New York and hail a cab, and take a cab driver poll of their religions. If he's Muslim, uh, oh. Heck, even if he says he's not, we can assume he's lying. We'll make a day of it. After that, we can all barge into the closest mosque and pee on prayer rugs (as Omar Rivera did last night in Queens). And then we can all rally up at that church in Gainesville where they plan a big old fashioned Qu'ran book burning to commemorate the anniversary of 911.

I'm sure no al Qaeda members or other extremist would view any of that as an attack on Islam and therefore worthy of a jihad.

The vandalism attack on a mosque in Madera, Ca didn't help, either, especially since they spray painted signs on the mosque walls that read "Wake up America, the Enemy is here," and "No temple for the God of terrorism at Ground Zero."

I wonder which God they're talking about.

It's gonna get worse as the anti-Muslim rhetoric “Islamaphobia machine” of right-wing news and Internet blogs continue to fuel the flames of hatred. And if they Ground Zero Mosque gets built, it will only serve as a focal point for it all giving rise to more of this kind of thing, giving jihadists all the ammunition they need to justify their holy actions. Unless, of course, we can all behave and do unto others and we would have others do unto us. But that's not very likely.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I am speechless. Viagra?
Greg, it was one of my more "divinely-inspired" moments ;) ...... what can I tell ya .... :D

Impotency takes many forms ..... it can be spiritual as well as physical ...

Many folks opt for the blue pill ..... and so continue to slumber on .... for these, the prospect of going for the red pill and learning the truth is something they just don't have the stomach or cajones for ...... way too dangerous ... if only from the standpoint of what they would learn about themselves ....
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Actually the entire humongous human race seems rather innocuous ......
Well, one would never know it from what you write on EO ....

No, I think that the world for you seems to be filled with all sorts of hostile groups (all apparently a threat, and undoubtedly bent on the destruction of poor old LDB and his way of life) ....

Everything from criminal, terrorist lawncare workers (and potential Mexican restaurant owners) from South of the Border (I'll bet that running I-95 at the NC/SC line is just excruciating for ya) ....

.... to those deviant apostates who fail to attend the church of their faith regularly enough .....

..... to them wild-eyed, out of control cargo van owners prowling the highways of this great land, looking for their next victim ....

...... to those evil folks who seem to think that here in America that they have some sort of right to build a house of worship and practice their faith ...... how dare they ...

....... to the direct spawn of old Satan himself: people who have political opinions that could be classified as (somewhat) liberal (at least in some respects) .....
 
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Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
All the news organizations are into the Ground Zero Mosque deal right now because things are slow and Congress is still in recess.
It's gonna get worse as the anti-Muslim rhetoric “Islamaphobia machine” of right-wing news and Internet blogs continue to fuel the flames of hatred.
Well, it seems the left-wing news is right in there mixing it up with them:

Report from the Front Lines: Apparent ABC Employee in Confrontation with Ground Zero Mosque Protestor - Big Journalism

Not the first time ABC has been caught stirring the pot or manufacturing news; and I know there will be the usual carping about the source, but the pictures speak for themselves regardless of the photographer. Fact is, the efforts of all the media to sensationalize this situation will naturally bring out the wackos on both sides, so no one should be surprised at a few acts of vandalism.

At any rate, here's a reflection of today's reality regarding the Ground Zero Mosque, straight from CBS dtd Aug 25:
image6805662_1.gif


CBS News Poll analysis by the CBS News Polling Unit: Sarah Dutton, Jennifer De Pinto, Fred Backus and Anthony Salvanto.
Poll: Most Say "Ground Zero Mosque" Is Inappropriate - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

Also, be sure to check out the complete poll:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_082510.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Impression of Islam
Favorable 24%
Unfavorable 39%
Don’t know 37%


Not too many Islamic sympathizers out there - Fox News must have a much larger audience than any of us thought.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I want to see a poll that ask these questions;

Do you engage in any dialog people of the Muslim faith in your daily lives?

Do you ask about other people's religion when you have a chance to ask?

Do you know anything about Islam?

I bet if this these questions were asked to a cross section of people, they would reveal what is truly going on.

Oh and rlent, again that was too funny, especially about the I95 thing.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I want to see a poll that ask these questions;

Do you engage in any dialog people of the Muslim faith in your daily lives?

Do you ask about other people's religion when you have a chance to ask?

Do you know anything about Islam?

I bet if this these questions were asked to a cross section of people, they would reveal what is truly going on.
You would probably get a response that goes something like "Why, some of my best friends are muslims". But having personal relationships with some muslim individuals that are nice guys and girls should not influence one's opinion regarding the doctrine of Islam and the agenda of it's leaders - and that's what the CBS poll seems to be about. The unfavorable attitude of most Americans toward Islam is probably directed at that agenda and how its politics are intertwined with its religious practices.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
But having personal relationships with some muslim individuals that are nice guys and girls should not influence one's opinion regarding the doctrine of Islam and the agenda of it's leaders

um.... let me try it another way....

But having personal relationships with some Catholic individuals that are nice guys and girls should not influence one's opinion regarding the doctrine of the catholic church and the agenda of it's leaders

seems to fit... sort of

I can't see it as a problem with either the "leadership" of the religion, which there really isn't any when you know what's going on, nor do I see the clear doctrine of Islam again because there are too many sects, too many opinions of what is and is not. The same seems to go for Evangelical Christianity, not one sect or group actually speaks for the entire religion, and this is also the same for Catholics which there are a few versions of them floating around.

The one thing I have learned is when there is negative press or 'the truth' being told, the author seems to have an agenda that is driven by either spite or hatred and most of them seem to be former followers of the religion. It seems that this went on in the past, with other religions - Mormons come to mind - where a books were written and accusations are made, so on and so forth. Most of the time there was a fictional element to what was being said without building a foundation to go on from there.

Can you tell me where the following comes from? Maybe it was a sermon or something else?

Because of man's afflictions and troubles, he is in constant search for a solution. The materialistic theories do not ease his pains and suffering. These theories have failed because they have deviated from God's path of truth and enlightenment.

God has created man and made him the successor of the land. He made man the master of nature. He bestowed on man many blessings, including knowledge to understand how to behave and deal with his existence.

He has established truth for man's ease to achieve happiness in this life and the Hereafter. God has sent prophets and messengers as a mercy for man.



The unfavorable attitude of most Americans toward Islam is probably directed at that agenda and how its politics are intertwined with its religious practices.

I understand that but the thing really comes down to the laziness of the American people who do not want to at least learn. They sit back and have to set blame for issues that appear to been caused or perpetrated by Muslims in mass because of ignorance.

But the entire politic issue is a non-issue and proves that there is utter ignorance on the subject of Islam. Take the Christian Right, very political and has a similar clear agenda as many Islamic "leaders" have. If a candidate has no Abortion stance or is neutral, then it they are deemed as unworthy for the Christian vote. The candidate has to come out with a like position to garner any support within those communities - just the same as the Muslims I would say. This goes for a number of issues that they feel are to follow their ways and only their ways - no exceptions. As of late, many agendas within that very right sect of Christianity have fallen into the same category as what people are accusing the Muslims - taking over the country.

The same goes for the Latino Catholics where immigration is a clear agenda item among a few others, but there people seem to accept the odd and rather ruthless behavior of Latinos who seem not to care about our laws and the safety of others - when was the last time a big deal was made about a church harboring invaders?
 

hdxpedx

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Al CRAPPA will run victory laps around their cave- printing recruiting posters showing their glowing Mosque towering where the infidels towers burned! Secondly that Mosgue could be used to build the BOMB they really want!
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
I understand that but the thing really comes down to the laziness of the American people who do not want to at least learn. They sit back and have to set blame for issues that appear to been caused or perpetrated by Muslims in mass because of ignorance.

The quote below pretty much sums up what you are saying greg. Timing couldn't have been better.

Al CRAPPA will run victory laps around their cave- printing recruiting posters showing their glowing Mosque towering where the infidels towers burned! Secondly that Mosgue could be used to build the BOMB they really want!
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The quote below pretty much sums up what you are saying greg. Timing couldn't have been better.
Timing is everything ..... :rolleyes: ;)

Secondly that Mosgue could be used to build the BOMB they really want!
Hate to break this to ya there Sport ..... and I know this will probably very difficult to wrap your head around ...... but obtaining a space to build a bomb isn't likely to big a real big problem .... you had a look at the commercial real estate/rental market lately ?

We are truly a nation of geniuses ..... after the comments directly above, how could there be any remaining doubts ........ :rolleyes:
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Wonder why the name was changed from Cordoba Mosque to Park 51 Mosque?
 
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