Only WikiLeaks Can Save US Policy

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
by Michael Scheuer, published in The Diplomat

Michael Scheuer is a best-selling author and the former head of the CIA's Bin Laden Unit. He resigned from CIA in November 2004 after nearly two decades of experience in covert action and national security issues related to Afghanistan, South Asia, and the Middle East.

Editorial Note: ellipses (.......) indicate an absence of material that is contained in the original article (which can be read via the link at the bottom of the page) but which has been left out of this quotation for reasons of brevity.

Editorial Comment: The article does not by any means cheerlead for Wikileaks - in fact, from what I can see, it offers no outright opinion on Wikileaks at all.

"As I write this, much of the international media is consumed with WikiLeaks’ gradual publication of a quarter-million US diplomatic reports. Why? Well first off, everyone likes to be let in on a secret, and if that secret involves acronyms like CIA, RAW, MI6, or ISI, the sexiness quotient skyrockets. That’s more or less just human nature. But the reports also provide grist for media publications—especially European ones—always eager to spread some dirt about the Americans. London’s Guardian, Madrid’s El Pais and Paris’s Le Monde were fairly salivating as the documents’ release date approached, and wrote with near-orgasmic prose once publication began. Their behaviour, too, was more or less predictable.

But the whirlwind around this batch of WikiLeaks leaks seems to point to a deeper concern among the public, one that stems from the increasing distance between the international reality they see and what their leaders describe to them. In recent years, the US public has had to hear its leaders repeatedly tell Americans that black was white: President Clinton said he didn’t know Monica (in the biblical sense) or who attacked the USS Cole in Yemen; President George W. Bush said Saddam was a WMD threat and then that there was no insurgency in Iraq; and President Barack Obama has said we are winning in Afghanistan, jihad is self-improvement (like stopping alcohol consumption) and that Indonesia is a model of sectarian tolerance. The latter is a particularly remarkable black-is-white moment—there have been times in Indonesia in recent years when you probably could have turned off your car lights and driven safely at night by the illumination provided by burning Christian churches.

This sort of regular and routine deceit has increased the suspicion of Americans—and I’d bet the suspicion of other nations’ publics, too—that they are being lied to about the conduct of governmental affairs. As a result, Americans seem to have become ever more eager to examine illegally acquired and disclosed ‘secret’ information in the hope of finding out what’s really going on.

Obama’s recent diplomatic trip through Asia—and especially his visit to India—is a very good example of an exercise so counterintuitive to the average observer, and so counterproductive to US interests, that one can only assume the real goal of the sojourn has intentionally been buried deep in highly classified messages not meant to be seen by the average citizen.

Preparing to leave Washington as the US-led war effort in Afghanistan is verging on collapse, Obama made clear that he wouldn’t visit Pakistan. Whatever one thinks of Pakistan’s track record as an ally, the truth is that the logistical viability of the US-NATO Afghan war effort depends on Pakistan keeping open overland supply routes from Karachi and Peshawar into Afghanistan. It also depends on Pakistan’s military doing something to hurt al-Qaeda and Taliban forces in the border area, or at least not doing much to help them. These two facts alone, one would think, would have merited a day’s visit to Islamabad to protect vital US interests. So why didn’t they? I can’t think of a reason .........

....... To top it all off, the India visit will have done Obama no good at all in the Muslim world. With many Muslims already viewing the United Nations as an imperialistic tool that the ‘Christian West’ uses to advance its and Israel’s interests, Obama has put the US government on record as approving a Security Council seat for polytheistic Hindu India. With no ‘Islamic’ Security Council seat mentioned by Obama (or indeed any other major world leader), the Muslim world will continue to believe that the UN is evolving in a markedly anti-Islamic direction ........

....... All of which brings us back to the public’s interest in WikiLeaks’ documents and other illicitly acquired and published ‘secret’ materials. Could Obama really have gone to India to intentionally achieve such a long list of negative results?

In an attempt to reconcile the contrast between the obvious negative reality of the India visit based on the information available to the public, and Washington’s description of it as having yielded stunning results, one is faced with only two explanations: (1) the real purpose, goals, and accomplishments of Obama’s visit are secret or (2) Obama and his lieutenants are singularly incompetent in designing and conducting a foreign policy that serves near- and long-term US interests.

Frankly, I’m leaning toward the latter. But I suppose it’s at least possible that some time in the future the maestro of WikiLeaks—if he’s not in prison—will steal and publish US or Indian government documents that show how the visit was actually a brilliant substantive success.

Until then, though, we’ll have to wait and see if, as Washington now says, black really is white.

Entire article can be read here - and it is well worth a read for some insightful and fairly non-partisan analysis on exactly why the current administration is incompetent in the area of foreign relations:

Only WikiLeaks Can Save US Policy
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Entire article can be read here - and it is well worth a read for some insightful and fairly non-partisan analysis on exactly why the current administration is incompetent in the area of foreign relations

Yes well worth the read but we didn't need any one person or in fact didn't need Assange pointing out the obvious that Obama's administration is incompetent in foreign relations - that was done when he and Hillary was handing out those great Gifts, anyone want a reset button?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes well worth the read but we didn't need any one person or in fact didn't need Assange pointing out the obvious that Obama's administration is incompetent in foreign relations - that was done when he and Hillary was handing out those great Gifts, anyone want a reset button?

Getting rid of AT LEAST 50% of our congressmen and 90% of our Senators along with Hillary, Biden and the Boy Wonder would go a LONG way to having a better foreign policy. Getting in bed with criminals is NEVER the answer.

Let us not forget the fact that you can trust NOTHING that a criminal says. Wikileaks is a "den of thieves". They get this information through ILLEGAL means. Therefor there is NO WAY to determine how they have "changed" or "edited" that information. One would have to be either a child, foolish, or have the same agenda that those WikiWackos have to trust them. YOU CANNOT EVER TRUST A CRIMINAL!!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I have never seen anything Wikileaks has released that was alleged to have been altered or edited in any way, other than redaction to remove names of innocents or otherwise sensitive information. Wikileaks has zero motive to fabricate or edit stuff. In fact, if they did that just once, their credibility would be shot completely, putting aside the fact that most everything they get is obtained illegally.

It's not like Wikileaks has an army of people running around stealing stuff so they can then release it. It's an anonymous whistleblower site where people submit things to them, albeit usually things that were obtained or submitted illegally.

One major problem that Wikileaks will face in the future, and have already experienced it, is they have to confirm the claims in the materials that are submitted to them. Often that's an impossibility, so they release it as is with a note that it cannot be confirmed. That's how their very first leak was presented, actually. But it turned out to be true.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Well as one commentator mention Wikileaks has done less damage than Hillary.
Well, in light of that, and in light of your call to assassinate Assange (for all the "damage" he has done), what I'm wondering is:

Will you be issuing a similar call for the assassination of Hillary ? :rolleyes:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Let us not forget the fact that you can trust NOTHING that a criminal says. Wikileaks is a "den of thieves".
This as Turtle so rightly points out, is not, in fact the case. For you to allege it is highly irresponsible - particularly without any evidence.

Fact is, if they were "stealing" documents, there would be severe legal implications - it would in essence it would refute any claim that they have as being journalists and a part of the press.

They get this information through ILLEGAL means.
Not quite accurate - their sources may obtain data that they submit to Wikileaks through illegal means (see below)

I have never seen anything Wikileaks has released that was alleged to have been altered or edited in any way, other than redaction to remove names of innocents or otherwise sensitive information. Wikileaks has zero motive to fabricate or edit stuff. In fact, if they did that just once, their credibility would be shot completely ......
Exactly.

It's not like Wikileaks has an army of people running around stealing stuff so they can then release it. It's an anonymous whistleblower site where people submit things to them, albeit usually things that were obtained or submitted illegally.
But the relevant point would be, that while it may be illegal for a source to submit something to Wikileaks, it may not be illegal for Wikileaks to receive it.

One major problem that Wikileaks will face in the future, and have already experienced it, is they have to confirm the claims in the materials that are submitted to them.
Might explain why there is a delay in them releasing stuff ... ;)

Often that's an impossibility, so they release it as is with a note that it cannot be confirmed. That's how their very first leak was presented, actually. But it turned out to be true.
Imagine that .... :D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You cannot trust a criminal. The information was obtained through illegal means. There is NO LEGAL way to obtain classified information UNLESS you are LEGALLY CLEARED for it. Those at Wikileaks are NOT cleared to have that information. They are GUILTY of, at the very least, receiving stolen property WHICH IS A CRIME. In other words, a FENCE. Den of thieves fits.

AS to it being edited or not, can't EVER trust a thief or ANYONE who deals with a thief. The source is tainted. Scum is scum and can NEVER be trusted.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
First, pillory Hilary! That felt good.

Next, it would be illegal for Wikileaks to knowingly accept stolen property. But since nearly everything that is submitted to them is submitted anonymously, there's no way for them to know the legality of the things they receive.

As for.... "There is NO LEGAL way to obtain classified information UNLESS you are LEGALLY CLEARED for it." Of course there is. If I walk up to you and hand you a piece of paper that is classified, you have just legally obtained classified information that you were not cleared to obtain, especially if you don't know it was classified to begin with.

"They are GUILTY of, at the very least, receiving stolen property WHICH IS A CRIME."

I agree with that, but only to a point. Just because it's classified doesn't in an of itself mean it's stolen property. All of the information contained within the government, classified or not, is owned, ultimately, by The People. If it's legitimately classified for purposes of national security, and it's release might possibly threaten our security, that's one thing, but what if it was classified solely because the information shows a coverup, lies or other corruption of, and within the government, and someone classified it to prevent from being caught committing a crime themselves? The gunship video is a prime example of that, where, IMNSHO, the military personnel in that gunship, and their superior officers for allowing it to happen, should be tried for treason, because what happened in that video not only strengthens the resolve of our enemies, but created new enemies as well. That video was classified, expressly because it showed US military personnel engaged in cold-blooded murder, and it absolutely should have been made public despite the fact that it was classified.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Come on Turtle, do you REALLY believe that Wikileaks had NO idea that info was not legal to be handed to them? If so, I got a bridge in NY to sell you, you even get the rights to the toll money. Geez.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
You cannot trust a criminal.
Except to be criminal ...... :rolleyes:

The information was obtained through illegal means. There is NO LEGAL way to obtain classified information UNLESS you are LEGALLY CLEARED for it. Those at Wikileaks are NOT cleared to have that information.
Irrelevant and immaterial ..... just doesn't matter ...... were talking about freedom of the press here ....

Why do you think the Pentagon Papers got published ?

“if a newspaper obtains truthful information about a matter of public significance then state officials may not constitutionally punish publication of the information, absent a need to further a state interest of the highest order.” - Smith, 443 U.S. at 103; accord Bartnicki, 532 U.S. at 527-28.

They are GUILTY of, at the very least, receiving stolen property WHICH IS A CRIME.
Cite me one case were a journalistic enterprise has been found guilty of receiving stolen property relating to being given info - and the verdict has been upheld.

In other words, a FENCE.
You may wish to grab a good dictionary and lookup the word FENCE:

"A fence is an individual who knowingly buys stolen property for later resale in a (usually) legitimate market."

Den of thieves fits.
Only for someone who is utterly ignorant of The First Amendment.

AS to it being edited or not, can't EVER trust a thief or ANYONE who deals with a thief. The source is tainted. Scum is scum and can NEVER be trusted.
Exactly why one should view government (and those who work for it) with a very jaundiced eye. Amonger, please permit me to borrow some words from your sig line:

"Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has, it has stolen." -- Friederich Nietsche

You should really study up on The First Amendment and the various legal cases relating to it - if you do, then you may not look so silly ....
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I dunno. Again, just because some goober in the government classifies something doesn't necessarily mean that it should have been classified. If it was wrongly classified, then no, it wouldn't be illegal to possess or receive it because it's evidence of a crime. Those who classify stuff think otherwise, but they really don't have that kind of absolute power, despite thinking they do. The illegal part would be classifying it to prevent the evidence from coming out.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Here's another one for ya LOS:

"In the most analogous case, Bartnicki v. Vopper, members of a teachers union sued a radio announcer under state and federal wiretapping laws after he played an unlawfully recorded telephone conversation on the air. The radio show host had received the recording from a third party who himself had received the tape in the mail from an anonymous source.

The Supreme Court held that the First Amendment prohibited the recovery of damages against the radio show host for publishing the tape, explaining that “a stranger’s illegal conduct does not suffice to remove the First Amendment shield from speech about a matter of public concern.” Id. at 535. The constitutional principle in Bartnicki and other Supreme Court cases is not limited to traditional forms of media like newspapers and radio broadcasters."
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Except to be criminal ...... :rolleyes:


Irrelevant and immaterial ..... just doesn't matter ...... were talking about freedom of the press here ....

Why do you think the Pentagon Papers got published ?

“if a newspaper obtains truthful information about a matter of public significance then state officials may not constitutionally punish publication of the information, absent a need to further a state interest of the highest order.” - Smith, 443 U.S. at 103; accord Bartnicki, 532 U.S. at 527-28.


Cite me one case were a journalistic enterprise has been found guilty of receiving stolen property relating to being given info - and the verdict has been upheld.


You may wish to grab a good dictionary and lookup the word FENCE:

"A fence is an individual who knowingly buys stolen property for later resale in a (usually) legitimate market."


Only for someone who is utterly ignorant of The First Amendment.


Exactly why one should view government (and those who work for it) with a very jaundiced eye. Amonger, please permit me to borrow some words from your sig line:

"Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has, it has stolen." -- Friederich Nietsche

You should really study up on The First Amendment and the various legal cases relating to it - if you do, then you may not look so silly ....

Since when was Wikileaks a member of the U.S. press? I used to help classify documents on a regular basis. That makes ME a criminal?

I suggest the following: IF you believe that I, while in the performance of my duty during the times that I served with the United States Army Security Agency OR the National Security Agency, broke ANY law, inhibited ANY investigation, or did ANYTHING to violate the Constitution of the United States I suggest that you contact the proper authorities in the jurisdition where the alleged offense occured with dates, times, and all other needed information. I want my day in court. Then, after I win, I can sue for libel.

I take GREAT pride in my service. I served with honor AND integrity. I protected AND defended the Constitution of the United States as I was sworn to do. I committed NO crimes, nor did anyone I ever served with. PERIOD.

That goes, I am sure, for the others in here who served this Nation in that capacity.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
And here's another tidbit straight from the old boys themselves over there at Justice:

"The Justice Department said "there plainly is no exemption" for the media under the Espionage Act, but added, "a prosecution under the espionage laws of an actual member of the press for publishing classified information leaked to it by a government source would raise legitimate and serious issues and would not be undertaken lightly, indeed, the fact that there has never been such a prosecution speaks for itself."

Source article (which is a good read in and of itself):

White House Trains Efforts on Media Leaks
 
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