Obama's Cairo Speech/Apology

[Pilgrim]

An excerpt from Barack Hussein Obama's speech on the latest leg of his apology tour (emphasis mine):

"As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam - at places like Al-Azhar University - that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality."

OK all you internet search experts and koran scholars - just how much of this stuff is camel dung? A cursory google search by a computer rookie like me shows that algebra was developed by Francois Vieta and the ancient Babylonians. The magnetic compass was invented by the Chinese over 200 years BC. The clincher is the last sentence; we have all witnessed over the past several years the "religious tolerance and racial equality" practiced by muslims, especially the wahabi sect prevalent in Saudi Arabia and others in the Middle East and Europe.

One can only imagine the jovial mood right now in Iran, North Korea and Russia. It's probably another story in Tel Aviv and Japan.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I know most of you will saying bunk.....

The peace process starts with the first step...we have to show the commoner over there that we are not the enemy and gain allies more then ever if we are ever going to stop this crazy merry-go-round of hatred of both sides...

The first step takes more courage...to throw your hat into the ring and have it tossed back in your face....and keep tossing it in...sure some of you will say that shows weakness...I say no...It shows a resolve to stop this revolving door of violence...this going around and blowing up everything and everyone that happen to disagree with us is silly.

 

[Poorboy]

I know most of you will saying bunk.....

The peace process starts with the first step...we have to show the commoner over there that we are not the enemy and gain allies more then ever if we are ever going to stop this crazy merry-go-round of hatred of both sides...

The first step takes more courage...to throw your hat into the ring and have it tossed back in your face....and keep tossing it in...sure some of you will say that shows weakness...I say no...It shows a resolve to stop this revolving door of violence...this going around and blowing up everything and everyone that happen to disagree with us is silly.

I agree, But you don't go over there not knowing what you are Talking About! If you are going to say that The Muslims or whoever Invented Algebra or the Compass then Don't Lie to the Audience Like he Did! Because All He did was Give them More to Talk about The Americans Being Stupid Once Someone Over there does some research to see if what he said was True..

 

[greg334]

First a serious lesson in Philosophy.

After Rome fell, the Christians took over the region and gotten rid of a bunch of things that were old history, claiming that it was all the devil and pagan worship stuff. They destroyed a lot of historical literature and scientific stuff out of shear fear and stupidity. They put man kind back centuries.

So here come this group the Muslims, they are not really stupid (but they are in the manner of stripping the pyramids of their surface rock), they capture and save a lot of stuff that was written and carved. Some of this is from Greece and some is from Rome.

The difference is that the leaders of Islam didn't allow the suppression of opposing points of view or fear the knowledge as did the chirstians. The Christains allowed a hierarchy to be formed where the common people were kept illiterate and uneducated through this mass distruction.

The follows of Islam not only kept the stuff they got form greece and rome but studied it and learn from it and then expanded man's knowledge.

We only seem to think in the a manner that our existing science only came from the west or China but Islam has given us a lot more than we actually know.

"As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam - at places like Al-Azhar University - that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra;

yes algebra did come from Islam. And it was the merchents of Venice who brought back the knowledge that triggered Europe's Renaissance.

our magnetic compass and tools of navigation;

I think the compass in its present form is what he is talking about, the chinese did discover it but who knows. I know that there is claim that the venicians were the first to come up with the rose compass but again they got a lot of their technology (like banking) from the Muslims they traded with. Now the tools of navigation actually comes from the Phoenicians and later discoverys like the use of the cross-staff and so on.

our mastery of pens and printing;

OK I am lost on that one, I know that Islam was great on the use of the pen and other communication forms.

our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed.

I have no clue what he is talking about, Turtle?

Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation.

Yes they have a rich heritiage in music. It has to do with Europes dark ages and the suppression of the arts.

And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality."[/QUOTE]

Now this is streching it a lot. At one time yes, but in the last 60 or 70 years - no.

 

[Steady Eddie]

I know most of you will saying bunk.....

The peace process starts with the first step...we have to show the commoner over there that we are not the enemy and gain allies more then ever if we are ever going to stop this crazy merry-go-round of hatred of both sides...

The first step takes more courage...to throw your hat into the ring and have it tossed back in your face....and keep tossing it in...sure some of you will say that shows weakness...I say no...It shows a resolve to stop this revolving door of violence...this going around and blowing up everything and everyone that happen to disagree with us is silly.

You're right in your thinking. However, just like Obama can do nothing wrong in some eyes, there is nothing we as Americans can do to stop the violence of these people. We can't feed them enough, we can't protect them enough, we can't free them enough, we can't rebuild enough, we can't talk peace enough. They will always hate us, no matter what.

 

[layoutshooter]

On the fence again, OVM?? LOL!! Too bad you are not here, I would give you a lesson on those "poor" mis-understood garden slugs over there. They have NO interest in peace, never have. There has been treaty after treaty. They get the same kick out of killing civilians as Dumb-O-Crats get out of killing babies!! There are only two choices with these people, fight to win or lose and die. Take your pick. They laugh at those who show weakness as Obama did. They DO NOT respect those who talk. Ever notice how the attacks are ramping up again in Iraq? Just wait, you have not seen anything yet. They only understand force.

 

[LDB]

Another option is to totally erase the chalkboard and start over writing a clean text.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I'll agree with Obama on most, if not all, of these claims. The Muslims (Arabs, Saracens, and Moors) were basically, the only accommodating religion in Europe, during the Middle Ages. While in power in much of Spain, during that time, they encouraged mixes of religions. Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in total harmony. Art, philosophy, science, and medicine all flourished. Eventually, the Moors were run out of Spain, and the First Inquisition took place, sending the culture back to what it was in the Dark Ages.

Not defending Obama's America and Israel bashing in his speech; but this one thing he did get right.

 

[greg334]

Peace
Human Rights
Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Speech
Representative Government

ALL have a different meaning ion the Middle East.

They want peace on their terms only
They understand Human Rights as their religion and culture allows them
They are tolerant to a point of other religions
They control speech not because of their rights but culture
Their form of representative government is not about elections and governing but of religion and representing God

They don't like the peace sign, thats for sure....

Obama was right on a few key points AND I believe he will do some good, yes he may but the problem is that he is coming into this as a rock star right now and that can change in an instant. He doesn't have the experience to cover his a** if he insults some leader overthere, just read about what our officials have to now do to even talk with low level Saudis, it shows a lot of contempt for the US. No matter what you want to say about Bush, he was consistent with his demands that respect and decorum were followed at all state events.

But I digress, if Obama wants to garner any respect, he will have to show his strength fairly and firmly as a leader. If he doesn't, if he falters or fails, he will not be taken seriously enough to broker any deal for any reason. The Arab nations will turn on him as they did with Clinton and Carter.

 

[Turtle]

I don't think it's camel dung at all. I also think that, unless there are just a snotload of really glaring errors, it's a little silly to pick apart a speech word by word and try to find something wrong with it. The speech as a whole is what's most important.

But without going and researching every little tid bit, knowing what I know about some of the things, I'd say he's by and large correct across the board. The "understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed" jumped out at me, because most people (in the west, anyway) are clueless about that little contribution. We were never really taught anything about it, or who figured it out.

Persia, particularly after its conquest by Arab Muslims, is basically the seat of history. It was in Persia (Iran) where the principle of "development" began, so it's not incorrect to say they were the first historic people. People came from all over the world to Persia (Iran, Iraq... Baghdad was by far the largest city, and the center for science and the arts), both before and after (more after) the Arabs took over.

A lot of Greek history is lost, particularly that which was contained in the libraries, but most of everything we do know about Ancient Greece and other ancient civilizations we owe to the Persians and Arabs. They systematically collected, restored, and translated much of what would have otherwise been lost.

Arab Muslims borrowed and developed many things from prior Persian cultures, as well as from western Europe, China, Africa, India, everywhere. It was known as the "Islamic Golden Age" (11th-14th centuries), where thousands from around the world came to the crossroads of the major cultural highways, where things were incorporated from all cultures into the Muslim world, and there scholars and scientists and astronomers and physicians and philosophers made major contributions to art, science, medicine and technology, which was something that later influenced the rise of European science and the arts during the Renaissance.

A scholar by the name of Avicenna wrote something called "The Canon of Medicine" which is one of the foundation manuals for the history of modern medicine (known as the first pharacopoeia). The other major foundation manual is called "The Book of Healing", which he also wrote.

These two books, for more than 1000 years, were the gold standard in medicine. All of modern medicine is based in these books. For good reason, he is known as The Father of Modern Medicine and Clinical Pharmacology, because he did things like introduce the scientific method to the art of medicine, whereby systematic experimentation and quantification was used to study physiology.

He discovered the contagious nature of infectious diseases, including how they can spread through soil and water, and introduced quarantine to limit the spread of contagious diseases. He invented experimental medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical trials, efficacy tests, risk factor analysis, and the concept of a syndrome. He invented cardiac drugs that are still used today, and are used as he prescribed them. He also correlated the importance of dietetics and environmental and climatic factors in health.

He is also the Father of the Momentum (in physics), and invented the steam distillation process to extract essential oils for the expressed purpose of aromatherapy, which he also invented. He is also the inventor of the Law of Superposition in geology. He also codified Islamic Ethics, and made major discoveries in chemistry and Paleontology.

He did a lot more. He was a very busy man. He invented the philosophical school of Avicennism and Avicennian Logic, which formed the early Islamic philosophy and reformed it and channeled it into a new direction. It is basically an amalgamation of Aristotelianism and Neoplatanism and Islamic Theology, and becomes something altogether different, far different than merely the sum of its parts. It is still the basis for Islamic philosophy today.

He is likely the greatest thinker and medical scholar in history. But he was just one of thousands of Muslims who were actively engaged in a lot of things. And if you have never studied the history of medicine, or are a Muslim, you've probably never heard of him. Interesting, isn't it? If you get bored or curious, look him up. He's fascinating.

Islam for centuries welcomed people of all cultures, races and religions. There is now, and always has been, a small number of people within Islam who isn't so welcoming. But Islam, in general, is not comprised exclusively of the extremist radicals we all know and love. Sure seems that way now, tho, doesn't it.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Haven't most of the major religions gone thru periods of fanaticism? (sp) Seems Islam is going thru it now....as you pointed out its roots are peaceful and learning.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Their problem is, after the Islamic Golden Age, the Arabs reverted back to their nomadic life, and became xenophobic.

OVM... I've heard different opinions on Mohammed. Some say he was a warmonger, while others say he taught peace. Saladin was a very aggressive leader who murdered and pillaged throughout the Crusades. Tho, when you look at it, so did the Christians.

 

[layoutshooter]

We are dealing with TODAYS muslim world. Today they are running all over the place killing civilians. If they want to fight a war, which they do, they should have the "STONES" to stand up and do so. Not this bunch. Cowards all. HEY!! Maybe THAT is why Obama identifies so much with them!! Now it makes sense!!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Their problem is, after the Islamic Golden Age, the Arabs reverted back to their nomadic life, and became xenophobic.

OVM... I've heard different opinions on Mohammed. Some say he was a warmonger, while others say he taught peace. Saladin was a very aggressive leader who murdered and pillaged throughout the Crusades. Tho, when you look at it, so did the Christians.

Hawk thats what I mean...Islam is having its share of radicals that are making the whole religion look bad...same as other religions have went thru in history.....I think somes reaction to blowing them off the face of the world is no real solution in the big picture....it didn't work against the Jews. or Christians.

 

[layoutshooter]

OVM, it is NOT about thier religion. Those who are involed in this are USING the religion to stir up passions. The TRUE goal is control of the region. No different than Hilter did in Europe in the 1930's. The leaders of the "Movement" are murderous, vile people. They attack anything and anything that is NOT a military target. Shopping malls, schools etc. Don't get these things mixed up. You need to talk to some of the Iraqis that I have had the honor of knowing. I think Greg knows a few that could help you out as well. THEN maybe you could FINALLY get off that fence!!!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

OVM, it is NOT about thier religion. Those who are involed in this are USING the religion to stir up passions. The TRUE goal is control of the region. No different than Hilter did in Europe in the 1930's. The leaders of the "Movement" are murderous, vile people. They attack anything and anything that is NOT a military target. Shopping malls, schools etc. Don't get these things mixed up. You need to talk to some of the Iraqis that I have had the honor of knowing. I think Greg knows a few that could help you out as well. THEN maybe you could FINALLY get off that fence!!!

Hitler had it right then.....for a few bad Jews....kill them all? Is that your logic?

Radical left wing Islamics or in the name of Islam...you'd kill them all?

Glad you weren't a Roman emperior...we Christains wouldn't be here to complain....

 

[layoutshooter]

I never said to kill them all. I have said to fight this war correctly. Fight it, win it and then do as was done after WWII in Japan and Germany. We had no quarral with the everyday German or Japanese. We fought against a FEW of the worlds governments that were killing civilians, just as is going on today. It will be difficult today, this enemy is TEACHING this swill in thier schools. That will complicate things. You will see, Obama is going to talk and talk, get a peace prize and the war will get worse and even more will die. JUST like Carter. His talking did a heck of a lot of good. This enemy does NOT respect talk!! Know the enemy, that is the FIRST rule.

Look a Lebenon. It was once called the "Paris" of the middle east. A modern country with international flair. Colleges from all over the world set up shop there. Now look at it. THAT is what the enemy is like. THAT is what they are after. All the talking over that last 40 years has NOT worked. WHY in the world does ANYONE think more talking will work now?

You cannot continue to do the same thing every day and expect a different outcome. Talk will invite attacks. To THIS enemy it is a sign of weakness.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I guess the old adage...FIRM but fair comes in eh?

 

[layoutshooter]

Sort of, more like taking down the school bully. We all had one. We all tried to talk our way out. MOST of us learned that it did not work and the bully only stopped when we kicked his butt. I wish there was another way. It did not work with Germany, Japan, Italy and it is NOT working now. Talk and talk while they just kill and kill.

 

[Turtle]

From Sun Tzu's The Art of War, "Know thine enemy better than one knows thyself."

In order to understand this enemy at all, one must have a thorough knowledge of Islam, and of what it means to be a Muslim within Islam, for they are not the same. Only then will you begin to understand how the Islamic Fundamentalists within the Muslims see things from such a focused perspective, and only then will you begin to know thine enemy. It's like someone said in another thread, in order to successfully cheat on your logs, you have to know all the rules of how they're supposed to be done in the first place. Not most of the rules, but all of them. Only then will you be able to get around the rules, i.e., defeat the rules.

It's the same with Islamic Fundamentalists, you have to know their rules, not just some of them, but all of them, in order to know how to defeat them. Layout says that 40 years of talking has done no good. Well, 40 years of fighting has done precisely the same thing. That's because both the talking and the fighting were done without first knowing the enemy well enough to defeat them. People who say that these people view talk as weakness clearly don't know thine enemy. What they view as weakness is talk from the perspective of not knowing thine enemy. The talk is coming from people who want to make radical Muslims think the way we do, and that's not knowing thine enemy, and it it not only perceived as a weakness, it actually is a weakness. Fighting them because they won't think like us is likewise a weakness, and they correctly perceive it as such.

One example is: "...it is NOT about thier religion. Those who are involed in this are USING the religion to stir up passions. The TRUE goal is control of the region."

But the thing is, it really and truly is about their religion. You see it as stirring up passions in order to gain control of the region, but that is merely the superimposing of your own (and western of Christian) thoughts into them. You're looking at their goals through your own eyes. In actuality, their goal is to gain control of the world, not merely the region. And it starts at the center of the region and will spread outward. It is about power, pure and simple, but it's not about power in the traditional sense that we think of it, it's about power within the confines of Islam and Islamic Law. And within Fundamental Islam, that means One World Under Allah, an Islamic World. To the Fundamentalist Muslim, people, regions, governments, the planet and all the countries, and Islam itself, are all one in the same thing. Islam has no concept of the separation of church and state. None. The church is the state, and the state is the church. That's a concept that even the Church of England would have trouble wrapping its head around.

Religious leaders and political leaders are the same, since everything is to be done for Islam and Allah, and in fact everything that will be done has already been preordained by Allah, anyway. The Ayatollah took over Iran and people in the west, particularly in America, where aghast. But to Islam and to Muslims, it was the most natural thing in the world. It finally put right something that was wrong, and it placed once more piece into the puzzle of world harmony. I'm not kidding.

Equating Radical Islam to that of the schoolyard bully is nothing more than projecting your cultural thoughts, ideas, and ideals, and experiences, onto their actions, which is a natural thing to do, but it's still dead wrong. It assumes that the standard response to a bully will also work with them. But they aren't coming at you with the mentality or thought processes of a bully. And in order to defeat this "bully", you have to know what motivates them to know what can change their mind in order to defeat them.

You really need to read up on Islam, what it is all about, and how it radically changes the way you (they) think (radically from our perspective, anyway). Only then will you begin to understand the enemy that is Radical Islam. For the most part, most Muslims don't see things in quite the narrow scope of the fundamentalists, and they can and do live in peace with other cultures and religions. But for the Radical Islamist, there is no acceptance for anything other than Islam, because in their mind every thing either is Islam, is supposed to be Islam, or if it is not Islam then it is trying to defeat Islam (which is why they justify jihad), and you will not be able to reason with them or bully them in any way to get them to change their mind. Fighting them is just as useless as talking to them, as both are seen as a weakness, and as an attack on Islam.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know that if you know thine enemy better than you know thyself, you can defeat him. The only way they will be defeated from without, is from within.