Not such a Fantastic idea

xmudman

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Silly me, I thought that if a Fantastic Fan only draws 3 amps, I could safely wire it to my starting battery.

Wrong! :mad:

Thank God a Pilot employee came out for a smoke a bit ago. He took pity on me with my cables in my hand, and jump started me. As I type, the van has been idling for 45 minutes and will be allowed to do so all night. The fan is off and in the morning I will disconnect the hot wire. The fan will be an unpowered vent until I get home and get the problem resolved.

In the meantime, newbies, don't be hooking up a lot of stuff to your starting battery. Get a second one put in for your toys, and let the primary one do its job.

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mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I have a small clip-on fan. It runs off of "The Gang of Four" which is a bank of four small gel-cell batteries. Before Turtle has a cow--- that fan is the "Gang of Four"s only job, I recharge it regularly at home and it seems the fan never draws much power while in use. It does keep the fan from using the starting battery-- it really doesn't take much to sap a battery below the point where it can start your vehicle, you know.
 

xmudman

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
The starting battery is really only designed to do just that: start the truck. I also charge my phone, Bluetooth, iPod and GPS off the ports in the dash. These are small items, and have never caused an issue. A fan is another issue. Also what may have hurt me is the fact that I had the windows shut tight to keep the skeeters out. I was probably drawing a lot more than 3 amps, by making the fan work harder than it would if air was free flowing. I need to set up some screens, to keep air flowing instead of just pumping it into a closed container.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Batteries don't die, their owners kill them.

Words to live by.

The 3-speed Fan-Tastic Fan Vent draws 1.86/2.29/3.0 amps. The hippy dippy spiffy 14-speed version draws between 0.2 - 1.9 amps. (the reason for the difference at full speed is the 3-speed fan's power goes through the speed switch whereas the 14-speed fan's power is controlled by a circuit board, which uses less power)

A 1 amp draw overnight is enough to kill a starting battery, which is what a couple of 5 Watt interior dome lights left on all night will do.

Batteries are often called the very thing they are designed to do and what they should be used for. You know, cell phone batteries, camera batteries, laptop batteries, flashlight batteries, starting batteries, deep cycle batteries, golf cart batteries, aerial lift batteries, truck batteries, car batteries, marine batteries, motorcycle batteries... you get the idea. Batteries are designed for a specific purpose and task and they are not interchangeable. You wouldn't use a motorcycle battery as your vehicle's starting battery anymore than you'd use your starting battery to power you camera. Why? Because motorcycle batteries are for motorcycles!

Starting batteries are to start the vehicle. That's it. That's all they're designed for. You can use it for small accessories, but even small inverter loads, like a 250W inverter plugged into the dash port, should only be used while the alternator is charging the battery.

If you know darn tootin' that you wouldn't use a cell phone battery in place of your vehicle's starting battery, why in the world would you think a starting battery can be used in place of a deep cycle battery? <shakes head>

Every time you run your starting battery down to the point where you need a jump, you've cut the remaining useful life of that battery in half. Something to keep in mind.

Charging Bluetooth, iPod and GPS off the dash ports is fine, but I still wouldn't recommend that you do it routinely when you're parked and the engine isn't running. Maybe one you can get by with, but if you try and charge 3 or 4 at once while parked, those miliamp draws add up to amps.

Use the starting battery for what it is designed for, and use a separate deep cycle or marine battery for the small household loads like fans and lights.

A marine battery is a hybrid between starting and deep cycle. It's designed to have enough oomph to start the vehicle, but also have enough reserve capacity for small amp draws. It's designed, actually for the 5 amp draw of a trolling motor.

Marine batteries and truck batteries of the same size, say, Group 31, are internally identical, with the only difference being the terminals. You don't need to go nuts with the house battery, one or two truck or marine batteries is fine for most loads. A starting battery's lead plates are very thin, a deep cycle battery's plates are very thick, and a marine or truck battery's plates are somewhere in between. Marine batteries are often marketed as "deep cycle" batteries, but that's only in the context of trolling motors and running lights. Think of them more in terms of deepER cycle than as starting batteries.

Batteries don't die, their owners kill them.
 
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xmudman

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Obviously, the group size matters for the starting battery, but does it for a house battery, I.e. do they need to match?

I will be installing a 1500-watt inverter to run a microwave and to keep items such as my laptop charged, as well as possibly a 22" HDTV. I'm OK with having the van running when using the microwave; for lesser loads, how much battery capacity should I have?

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Obviously, the group size matters for the starting battery, but does it for a house battery, I.e. do they need to match?
What matters for the starting battery is cranking amps. The group size is the battery's footprint and dimensions.

The starting battery and house battery do not need to match at all insofar as its footprint. The house battery can be whatever size you have room for. You will (or should) have the two isolated from each other using a battery isolator. The only thing you don't want to do is have the cranking battery and the house battery be two different types, or battery chemistries. You don't want a traditional wet cell (including maintenance-free) cranking battery and then have gel or AGM batteries for your house banks. Wet, Gel and AGM batteries each require different charging voltages and different charging regimens, so you cannot properly charge two different battery types with one alternator or charging source.

I will be installing a 1500-watt inverter to run a microwave and to keep items such as my laptop charged, as well as possibly a 22" HDTV. I'm OK with having the van running when using the microwave; for lesser loads, how much battery capacity should I have?
How much battery capacity you need is directly dependent on how many amp hours you will draw from the battery banks between full recharges. A guide to start with is a 24 hour period. How many amps will you draw in 24 hours?

AMPS x VOLTS = WATTS
Conversely, WATTS divided by VOLTS = AMPS

How many amps does the TV draw, at 12 volts? You'll be running things through an inverter, so whatever the draw is at 120 volts, you have to multiply that by 11 (10, plus 10% for the inverter loss). So, if on the back of your TV it says it draws 25 Watts at 120 volts, that's 120 volts / 25 = .2083 amps, but at 120 volts. To get it to 12 volts you have to multiply .2083 x 10 for 2.083, times 10% for the inverter loss gives you 2.293 amps.

If you watch the TV for 5 hours, that's 5 x 2.293 = 11.465 amp hours used by the TV during that 24 hour period. Then round up to at least 12, maybe 15, because you always use more than you think.

You need to do that for everything you will be running off the inverter. Also figure in every 12 volt load you have, like the 3 amps for the Fantastic Fan.

The laptop can be tricky, because it might say the input draw is 4.94 amps @ 19 volts. Well, 19 volts times 4.94 amps = 93.86 Watts. So, 93.86 Watts divided by 12 volts = 7.82 amps, times 10% is 8.60 amps from the battery bank to charge the laptop. Multiply that times how many hours you'll be charging it. If the laptop is fully charged and you operate it while plugged in to the inverter, figure out how many Watts or amps the laptop draws while plugged in.

There are no shortcuts to this. You need to be aware and to KNOW what your requirements are, and KNOW them as they change over time with you adding or subtracting the appliances and amp hours you consume.

Once you know how many amp hours you'll draw in a 24 hour period, double that figure. That will be the absolute minimum amp hour capacity of the battery bank. The reason is, you don't want to discharge the battery bank more than 50%. The more and more often you drop below 50%, the shorter the lifespan of the batteries will be.

If you want to run a microwave, you'll want to run the engine for sure, and even at that you'll really need at least a 200 amp hour capacity battery bank. Otherwise the high draw of the microwave will just put too much of a stress on the inverter and the batteries, unless you have high dollar true deep cycle batteries.

When you are not using the inverter, turn it off, because it'll draw 1-1.5 amps even with nothing plugged into it.

Another thing you will need is a battery monitor, like the Xantrex LinkLITE monitor. It keeps track of all amps in and all amps out and lets you know at a glance how much power you have left in the batteries. It's like a gas gauge for the battery bank. If you don't have a battery monitor, you'll be living by the words to live by above. You'll be killing your batteries. You will always discharge deeper than you estimate, and you will always undercharge them when recharging. Chronically discharging too deeply and undercharging them results in you calling your batteries pieces of crap, causing you to go out and buy bigger batteries or more expensive AGM batteries so they'll last a little longer while you mercilessly kill them.
 
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xmudman

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
The Grand Battery Wizard has spoken! :D

Thanks Turtle :beer:

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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The Grand Battery Wizard has spoken! :D

Thanks Turtle :beer:

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