Not So Fast General McChrystal......

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
As the Mother of an active guard, I've been questioning, in my own mind, our objective in Afghanistan. I cannot make the claim of vast knowledge on the subject but I'm trying to learn.

As a child of the 60's, I'm more than sensitive to the loss of a generation of young men at the hands of a government that couldn't/wouldn't "allow" them to fight a war in a conventional military sense.

The recent hub bub concerning General McChrystal's report seemed like a simple decision for me....give them the troops they're asking for and get this thing finished....that is until I heard Andrew McCarthy on Mike Church's show yesterday. Now, I'm wondering maybe...not so fast. Andrew has read the report and what he has to say about it should give ALL OF US pause....

A few paragraphs that caught my attention and the FULL STORY HERE.


Deep down, national-security conservatives know President Obama will not wage a decisive war against America’s enemies in Afghanistan. They also know that the young men and women we already have there are sitting ducks. Ralph Peters notes that our commanders, obsessed with avoiding civilian casualties, have imposed mind-boggling rules of engagement (ROE) on our forces, compelling them to retreat from contact with the enemy and denying them resort to overwhelming force — including the denial of artillery and air cover when they are under siege. As the Washington Examiner’s Byron York recently reported, even some Afghans are telling our commanders to “stop being so fussy . . . and kill the enemy.
Up until now, one might have thought our goal in going to war in Afghanistan was to vanquish al-Qaeda, its jihadist affiliates, and the Taliban — the de facto Afghan government we toppled because it facilitated al-Qaeda’s terrorist strikes against the United States from 1998 through 9/11. That certainly is the mission contemplated by the use-of-force resolution Congress passed in September 2001. President Obama seemed to grasp this back in March when he assured Americans that defeating al-Qaeda was his purpose in Afghanistan (and in Pakistan as well).

But that is not General McChrystal’s purpose. In fact, he does not even think this is America’s war. “This is their war,” the general says of the Afghans. “This conflict and country are [theirs] to win — not mine.” And because we are in Afghanistan primarily to make life better for the Afghans, he argues, “our strategy cannot be focused on seizing terrain or destroying insurgent forces; our objective must be the population.” This, he writes, is a “war of ideas” in which “the key to changing [the Afghans’] perceptions lies in changing the underlying truths.” Good luck with that.
First we have to stop being so “pre-occupied with protection of our own forces.” All that fighting we’ve been doing amounts to the trivial pursuit of “tactical wins that cause civilian casualties or unnecessary collateral damage.” We’ve been too distant “physically and psychologically . . . from the people we seek to protect.” We’ve got to get with it and understand that “security may not come from the barrel of a gun. Better force protection may be counterintuitive; it might come from less armor and less distance from the population.”

That may fly at the Kennedy School, and it would make a fine cover essay for Foreign Affairs. It is likely to prove less persuasive to the families of our young men and women in uniform. They read the newspapers, and to them it sure must seem that much of this population that so enthralls McChrystal is working with, and selling our troops out to, the Taliban.
We have only one military mission in Afghanistan, and it is not to protect the Afghan population, who are not properly our concern so long as they don’t allow their country to be a launching pad for attacks on the United States. Our troops are in Afghanistan because we, not the Afghans, are in a war to destroy al-Qaeda and its enablers — the Taliban, Hekmatyar, and the Haqqani network, all of which draw support from Pakistan. Obviously, we should always try to avoid civilian casualties in achieving our objectives. But this is a war, and our objectives take precedence. Afghan and Pakistani civilians will best be protected if we use the back-breaking force necessary to achieve our objectives as swiftly as possible; American civilians and troops will best be protected by making clear that if America is threatened again our troops will be back again — and not to bring hope and change.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Another interesting article.....


In Afghanistan, let U.S. troops be warriors

By: Byron York
Chief Political Correspondent
September 25, 2009


A U.S. Army soldier from 4th Battalion, 25th Field Artillery Regiment from Fort Drum, N.Y., peers through his rifle scope to look for the origin of a rocket attack on their combat outpost in the Jalrez Valley in Afghanistan's Wardak Province on Thursday. (AP photo)There was an international uproar when, on Sept. 4, in Afghanistan's Kunduz province, an American fighter jet under NATO command bombed a group of Taliban fighters who had hijacked two fuel tanker trucks. The trucks exploded, the fighters were killed, and so were a still-undetermined number of Afghan civilians.

The civilian deaths sent shudders through the American military command, already fearful that civilian casualties would further alienate the Afghan public. Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top American commander in Afghanistan, was said to be angry and determined to tighten the U.S. force's already-strict rules of engagement even more to avoid future civilian deaths.


Then something odd happened. When McChrystal met with local leaders in Kunduz, a few days after the bombing, he got an earful -- but not what he expected.


According to a detailed account in The Washington Post -- a story that has received too little attention in the ongoing debate over U.S. policy in Afghanistan -- the local Afghan leaders told McChrystal to stop being so fussy and to go ahead and kill the enemy, which they said would help bring stability to the region.


Post reporter Rajiv Chandrasekaran was given extraordinary access to the bombing investigation. According to his account, McChrystal began the meeting with a show of sympathy for those who had been killed or wounded. The general didn't get very far before he was interrupted by the provincial council chairman, Ahmadullah Wardak.


The security situation has been getting worse in Kunduz, Wardak told McChrystal. American and NATO troops haven't been aggressive enough in pursuing and killing the Taliban. In Wardak's view, the bombing of the fuel tankers, rather than a mistake, was the right thing to do.


"If we do three more operations like was done the other night, stability will come to Kunduz," Wardak said, according to the Post account. "If people do not want to live in peace and harmony, that's not our fault."


Chandrasekaran reported that McChrystal "seemed caught off guard." Wardak clarified a bit more: "We've been too nice to the thugs," he said.


So instead of receiving an angry lecture on America's disregard for Afghan life, the general received an angry lecture on America's hesitance to go after the enemy.
Cut from that scene to a letter written to Sen. Susan Collins last July. It was from a New Portland, Maine, man named John Bernard, father of Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard, then serving with the Marines in Afghanistan.


John Bernard, himself a 26-year veteran of the Marines, was enraged by the military's new, restrictive rules of engagement in Afghanistan. The rules are "nothing less than disgraceful, immoral and fatal for our Marines, sailors and soldiers on the ground," Bernard wrote. Under those rules, U.S. forces "without reinforcement, denial of fire support and refusal to allow them to hunt and kill the very enemy we are there to confront are nothing more than sitting ducks."


The letter, disturbing at the time, became heartbreaking three weeks later, when Joshua Bernard was killed fighting the Taliban in Helmand province.


His death became national news when the Associated Press published a clearly inappropriate photo of Bernard as he lay wounded. But the bigger news should have been his father's concerns about the rules of engagement.


Now cut again, this time to Sept. 8, when four U.S. Marines were killed when the Taliban ambushed their patrol in Kunar province. The Marines were taken completely by surprise and pinned down under heavy Taliban fire. McClatchy reporter Jonathan Landay was with them and wrote a harrowing account of their desperate battle to survive.


The rules of engagement again played a role. "U.S. commanders, citing new rules to avoid civilian casualties, rejected repeated calls to unleash artillery rounds at attackers dug into the slopes and treelines," Landay wrote, "despite being told repeatedly that they weren't near the village."


President Obama is in the middle of a new reassessment of his original reassessment of the U.S. mission in Afghanistan. The big question consuming the press is whether Obama will send more troops, and if so, how many. But what American troops are actually doing in Afghanistan is even more important.
Will the president listen to John Bernard, to the troops who are fighting under tight restrictions, and even to Ahmadullah Wardak? Will he let them fight the fight? It's simply wrong to place Americans at risk otherwise.


Byron York,
The Examiner's chief political correspondent, can be contacted at [email protected]. His column appears on Tuesday and Friday, and his stories and blog posts appears on WashingtonExaminer.com | Political News - Local, National & World Politics | Washington Examiner ExaminerPolitics.com.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am the father of a full time active duty soldier who is now in Afganistan. We are there because we screwed up many years ago. We helped the Afgans expel the Soviets and then IGNORED them. WE asked for the Taliban to take over by NOT helping those who fought the Soviets!!! Now we are reaping the fruits of that stupidity!! We can either stand up and fullfill our responsiblity and help those who helped us years ago, OR, we will help to re-intall those who would kill all of us!!! Learn history or die!! It is THAT simple!!
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We need to do away with "rules of engagement" fight this thing RIGHT and end it. It is VERY important to secure Afganistan. Even if you set aside that fact that we said we would stay and finish the job we MUST keep in mind that Pakistan has nukes. They are WATCHING what we do very closely. They know that they are in trouble and are looking for help. Can they count on us if we "cut and run" AGAIN?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yesterday I read Osama Bin Laden's newest blockbuster - "The West and The Dark Tunnel".

After that I read the Washington Post's copy of the McCystal report and was rather disappointed.

Most of my disappointment comes from hearing the same rhetoric as I heard many years ago. Some of it comes from the attitude that we must win the hearts and minds of the people while other comments like "But a failure to send them will be a guarantee of failure." which is really an echo of 1968 in congress.

We are fighting a different kind of war but not. We seem to be rebuilding a country while trying to fight the people, a lot like Vietnam.

Canada, the one honest country has pretty much said they failed, with their polio eradication pretty much on the rocks and their school building program far behind expectations, they have seemed to make it a point to do what they can and leave in 2011.

So with reading the world's reaction to the film, it seems that unless there is a real change in stratigy, not just stratigy of the war but of the administration, we will become again in a mess where we will either decide we have lost and leave or take heavy loses and then leave because of the inexperince of the leader of our troops.

Bin Laden has also said something interesting, Obama will fall because of the middle east and Obama has failed to see the outcome of the war there - his prediction of wasting the US troops as they did the soviets seems to be on target with the plea of the generals to send more troops. Pretty much Bin Laden has got it right when we have Feinstein claiming "I do not believe we can build a democratic state in Afghanistan," and of course our great house leader "I believe it will remain a tribal entity." adding "there is a great deal of support for sending more troops to Afghanistan", echoing Cronkite...

Even Canada sees it. Colin Kenny, chair of Canada's senate committee on national security and defence said "what we hoped to accomplish in Afghanistan has proved to be impossible. We are hurtling towards a Vietnam ending".

That I think may be true, I pray it isn't but it may be.

I agree that the "winning of Hearts and Minds" of the people is already a done deal but our leadership on the ground there doesn't - seeing that the McCrystal report is such a nice bit of political correctness.

We are dealing with a population who is tired of being a target for one country or another or one group or another. As Wardak pointed out, Nato needs to step up operations and not worry about rules of engagement (being nice to these thugs).

I think the people want to move forward with our help, they know about Iraq and what happened there and by having the US and Nato sit on their hands and do little while at the same time having to deal with the Tailban and the other groups, they are caught in the middle and will blame us for our failures.

The bigger issue we have to address after all of this is why is there a Nato, there is no use for it and using it for these "police actions" seem to put money down another UN style rat hole.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
While NATO is not as important as it was during the so-called "Cold War" it is likely to regain that importance as Russia continues it's march to return the old Soviet Union.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That and the nukes in Pakistan must be kept in mind. Can you imagine if we pull out, turn Afganistan over to the Taliban what will happen in Pakistan? Imagine the Taliban with nukes. Obama had BETTER do this right, drop the stupid rules or all "HECK" is going to break out.:eek:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
India has them but Pakistan is under attack by the Taliban. I can only pray that Obama does NOT screw this up. His lack of experience and lack of education in history is REALLY showing. Let's fight this thing right!! We need to "contain" Iran and de-fuse their nuke program before it is too late.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
We MUST finish the job....or else other middle east countries will have a bullseye on us as weak....They'll never trust us again...we could kiss the east goodbye...

News flash Ken, they ALREADY see us as weak, that's why they're toying with "the anointed one". They know he's weak....how bad is it when the FRENCH as much as say so? This comes THIS EARLY in his Presidency?

Go back to the Carter days and how they released the 53 hostages THE DAY AFTER he left office....they knew Reagan wouldn't be a leader that curled up in the oval office in his cardigan with the heat turned down!
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
There could have been a greater result if the military effort in Afghanistan was not so restricted. There are documented intelligence of meetings of Taliban insurgents with several village leaders and the military knew of these meetings but held back attacking due to the risk of civilian casualties. Yes the focus seems to be on trying to rebuild the country and the Canadians have been doing an admirable job considering that half of what they have done has been attacked, damaged or even destroyed. Their efforts in communicating and helping farmers has been hindered as the Taliban move in after the soldiers leave and take over stopping all projects aimed at helping the populace. This is happening all over the southern part of the country ruining the efforts of the Nato troops.
The military must have less restrictions and be able to react properly otherwise it is a non winnable situation.
Rob
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Obama is NOT qualified to be in the position he is in. I said that prior to the election and was told that "experience" did NOT matter. Neither did character. WELL, all that lack of experience is really starting to show and LIVES are in the balance, and NOT just those serving in our military, OUR LIVES are in danger do to this "PUTZ" He needs to resign. NOW!!!
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
You can forget about "Winning" this war...1st the liberal Dems have no guts to let our military do what they are trained to do, "kill the enemy and break and destroy things"...they have imposed the ROE that is worst then any County Sheriff has to live with.....2nd barry has on interest in winning and killing muslums, that is why the commanders on the ground will not let our soliders return fire when there is ANY chance that a civilian my be killed.....our troops are handcuffed at every turn and we might as well get out and let the chips fall where they will...

now that being said, McChrysal is doing what he has to do within the constrains he has, he has to be nothing more then a puppet for barry his hands are tied....id love to see him AND General Petraeus bith resign their commissions and retire right now...then let barry deal with that...barry has no support form the troops and what he has from the commanders is fake, they are doing what they feel they need to do and nothing more...

As for the US being seen as weak, lol, that was done by the weak azz liberal dems that would have us cut and run and furthered by barry with his "nuke free world" that he is willing to set the example by getting rid of our nukes 1st...and all of his *****footin around with Iran, and NK, and Russia...EVERYONE knows that our military is under severe control by weak liberals with no gut for killing those that would kill us....

Give McChrystal the troops, not until the ROE are removed.....and that is really hard for me to say.......
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You are correct, NO more troops until we DROP the ROE's and allow them to FIGHT!! Other wise, pull ALL our troops out from EVERYWHERE in the world and prepare for the fight here. It WILL come!!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The thing about pakistan is that they are in pretty much a civil war with the taliban and other groups trying to overthrow the government. They can turn on India as a distraction to motivate the people to help unify the country while at the same time really cracking down on the region that supports the Taliban in Afgahnistan.

We have to worry more about the loss of Pakistan than afghanistan.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Correct Greg, and Pakistan will likely fall IF we lose Afganistan. This is a VERY important decision for Obama. I do NOT have much faith in his ability to handle it. He has NO backround or experience and does NOT believe in the military. He has NO business in that office.
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
While Obama's lack of experience is a partial problem I was hoping that he would pay close attention to advisors from each area with experience in their fields and also listen to those in the field and working in it. Not only with banking but in the military, medical, insurance and whatever area he wished to make decisions on. It seems that such was wishful thinking but there was some hope for this.
Having a new man at the helm with a lack of political experience is not necessarily a bad thing as the old way of having someone who has been at the political game awhile has been tainted by the usual intrigues of political dealings. Unfortunately this type of boss needs a decent set of advisors and also a lot of input and info with more time taken to make decisions that are right for the country. He came to the leadership with a set of ideas of which many are going to be hard fought to get in place due to the congress and senate being mostly older politicians with agendas of their own. Not all his ideas are great or perfect but some of them have a basis of need and such that somewhere must be looked at as the nation continues to degenerate.

Who would make the best president? An older politico with vast political experience? A businessman with years of running a corporation in the free market world?
Rob
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Politics IS the problem. The Presidents FIRST responsibility is that of Commander in Chief. ANY president should have VAST experience in those fields. The primary role of the Federal government IS our defense.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Greg is right with the importance of Pakistan, and Layout is right that if we lose Afgan, Pakistan will fall...but with the Dems having no guts to support our military and even bad mouthing them and accusing them of crimes and barrys dislike for the military in all fashions, we will not win and as was said, he has no right or reason to be in the office he is......

You want to win this , take off the ROE OR, turn it TOTALLY over to military contractors and leave them alone to do what they do now, just on a larger scale....give the military contractors the support of our military instead of the other way around and watch the outcome..make it a for profit war and the free market will win.....
 
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