Non CDL Truck Question

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
It has always been my understanding that a CDL is required to drive a truck with air brakes, regardless of it being under or over 26,000#. I was looking at a truck this weekend and the guy at the dealer swore up and down that has changed and a CDL is not required for this truck, a smaller straight with air brakes. Can someone clear this up definitively? Just the facts please.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
This is from MI but it is standard across the country because of CMV regulations.


http://www.truckingsafety.org/faq/faqlicense.htm

"Question 5: Is a CDL required for a commercial motor vehicle (truck) equipped with air brakes, even though the weight rating is 26,000 pounds or less?Guidance:*No. The GVWR or GCVWR, number of passengers or transportation of hazmat would be the sole determining factor. Air brakes, by themselves do not establish any requirements for CDL."

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BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Licensing is based on GVW. I have a truck at 25500 GVW, air brakes, and don't need a cdl.
A CDL is required if you haul any hazmat and you need to have an H or X endorsement on your license letter might still vary from state to state.
You might need a medical card depending on your home state. [
B]HOWWEVER YOU WILL need one if you cross state lines [/B]

Bob Wolf.
 

runrunner

Veteran Expediter
I do believe the dealer is right,you do not need a CDL because of air brakes. You need a CDL if the GVWR is over 26,000 lbs. and in PA if the vehicle has air brakes you must have the air brake restriction removed by passing the air brake test.
 

runrunner

Veteran Expediter
Licensing is based on GVW. I have a truck at 25500 GVW, air brakes, and don't need a cdl.
A CDL is required if you haul any hazmat and you need to have an H or X endorsement on your license letter might still vary from state to state.
You might need a medical card depending on your home state. [
B]HOWWEVER YOU WILL need one if you cross state lines [/B]

Bob Wolf.

Bob Wolf is correct.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
Good Question......BUT.........Despite the answers given here that say "NO", you do not need a CDL to operate a CMV with Airbrakes........it seems like those "Opinions" are formed from not comprehending what they have read......or are reading.

According to FMSCA Guidelines........You cannot Operate a Commercial Motor Vehicle WITH Airbrakes........No matter what the GVCW or GVWR is unless you DO have an Air Brake Endorsement from your Home State.

In the Case the OP here brings up......a CMV under / over 26K.......the Answer is YES......You do Need a CDL to Operate a CMV with Airbrakes.

WE ALL should know the 3 Classes of CDL's Available:

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

But we also have a Tendency to stop learning what Endorsements and Restrictions are involved beyond these Classes.

Such as.........

Restriction "Z" - If the driver takes the test in a vehicle with an air over hydraulic brake system, then they will have a "Z" no full air brake restriction placed on their license. In either case the driver is not authorized to operate a CMV equipped with air brakes.

Commercial Driver's License Program (CDL/CDLIS) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

So.......Read into it as you may.........

Personally........I would not get caught going through a Level 1 Inspection with a Commercial Motor Vehicle that is Equipped WITH Air Brakes NO Matter the GVCW & GVWR, with just a Plain Ole' everyday 4 wheeler Class C Drivers License.........Cause according to the FMSCA Rules and Regs above.......That Trooper is going to have ALL SORTS of Fun with you that involves his ticket book.......
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Good Question......BUT.........Despite the answers given here that say "NO", you do not need a CDL to operate a CMV with Airbrakes........it seems like those "Opinions" are formed from not comprehending what they have read......or are reading.

According to FMSCA Guidelines........You cannot Operate a Commercial Motor Vehicle WITH Airbrakes........No matter what the GVCW or GVWR is unless you DO have an Air Brake Endorsement from your Home State.

In the Case the OP here brings up......a CMV under / over 26K.......the Answer is YES......You do Need a CDL to Operate a CMV with Airbrakes.

WE ALL should know the 3 Classes of CDL's Available:



But we also have a Tendency to stop learning what Endorsements and Restrictions are involved beyond these Classes.

Such as.........



So.......Read into it as you may.........

Personally........I would not get caught going through a Level 1 Inspection with a Commercial Motor Vehicle that is Equipped WITH Air Brakes NO Matter the GVCW & GVWR, with just a Plain Ole' everyday 4 wheeler Class C Drivers License.........Cause according to the FMSCA Rules and Regs above.......That Trooper is going to have ALL SORTS of Fun with you that involves his ticket book.......

What are you reading that says that a CDL is needed? The things you posted point to the fact that a CDL would not be needed unless he was hauling hazmat or running a bus.

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tknight

Veteran Expediter
I have an under 26k st8 truck w/air brakes non cdl truck I don't have a cdl, don't want one either!
I have been inspected many times its never been a problem
I'm licensed in Ohio
I've been run through the dot mill in oh, pa, ny, ct, mi, ky, in, il, wi, and most of the others with no problem
 

BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I have been through several level 1 inspections in different states, and have never had a problem with air brakes. My last inspection was done by a FMCSA Investigator.

I also asked the Investigator on this issue and the answer is,

1) If the truck is under 26000 lbs
2) It has a dual stage / split air system original equipment to keep an emergency reserve if you loose air pressure.
Typically there will be two air gauges on the dash and two separate air tanks one tank will have an internal bulk head and two drain valves. Yes even on a strait truck. If you have this setup youre legal.

Think about the fact Penske, Ryder, Enterprise, and other rental companies rent trucks to anyone with cash and ID. Or towing contractors running medium duty class 6 flatbeds and they have air brakes.

Some states may require you take a written test for an airbrakes or towing endorsement.

Bob Wolf.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
What are you reading that says that a CDL is needed? The things you posted point to the fact that a CDL would not be needed unless he was hauling hazmat or running a bus.

States don't place ENDORSEMENTS or RESTRICTIONS on NON-CDL Licenses........Unless it's like a Learners Permit...Motorcycle....Etc.

Like my CDL has a No Airbrake Restriction.......Texas Does Not place that kind of Restriction on just a Class C License.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
I have been through several level 1 inspections in different states, and have never had a problem with air brakes. My last inspection was done by a FMCSA Investigator.

I also asked the Investigator on this issue and the answer is,

1) If the truck is under 26000 lbs
2) It has a dual stage / split air system original equipment to keep an emergency reserve if you loose air pressure.
Typically there will be two air gauges on the dash and two separate air tanks one tank will have an internal bulk head and two drain valves. Yes even on a strait truck. If you have this setup youre legal.

Think about the fact Penske, Ryder, Enterprise, and other rental companies rent trucks to anyone with cash and ID. Or towing contractors running medium duty class 6 flatbeds and they have air brakes.

Some states may require you take a written test for an airbrakes or towing endorsement.

Bob Wolf.

In Texas......You CAN NOT "Rent" a Penske / Budget type of Truck that is Equipped with Airbrakes Unless you have a CDL.......

Show up with just Cash and Non-CDL License at any Budget Location to rent 1 of their Air Braked 26K Trucks and see how far you get.........

Also......in Texas......Not only do you have to have a CDL to Drive for a "State Registered" Towing Company that has Air Braked Vehicles.......but each "Driver" must also have a Towing Class of License before he gets behind the wheel of a Tow Truck.

Frequently Asked Questions about Tow Trucks, Operators and Vehicle Storage Facilities

There is No Hiring of Joe Blows Cousin to run a Tow Truck down here...............
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
States don't place ENDORSEMENTS or RESTRICTIONS on NON-CDL Licenses........Unless it's like a Learners Permit...Motorcycle....Etc.

Like my CDL has a No Airbrake Restriction.......Texas Does Not place that kind of Restriction on just a Class C License.

You have the restriction because you didn't take the written or road test for air brakes AND you have a CDL. A vehicle 26k lbs or under does not require a CDL so there are no restrictions or endorsements.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
You have the restriction because you didn't take the written or road test for air brakes AND you have a CDL. A vehicle 26k lbs or under does not require a CDL so there are no restrictions or endorsements.
That's exactly right. There is no Air Brake Endorsement, there is only a restriction from operating a vehicle with air brakes. The "L" restriction becomes applicable if you fail the written knowledge test section of air brakes, or if you take the road test in a vehicle without air brakes. If you take the road test in a vehicle with air over hydraulic brake system, you'll get a "Z" restriction that won't allow you to operate a vehicle with full air brakes.

If you have a 25,000 pound vehicle that has air brakes, and you pass the written test for air brakes, and you take the road test in that vehicle, you don't need a CDL to drive it, and there are no air brakes restrictions involved.

As far as, "States don't place ENDORSEMENTS or RESTRICTIONS on NON-CDL Licenses........Unless it's like a Learners Permit...Motorcycle....Etc." goes, there is a long laundry list of restrictions that get placed onto Plain Ole' everyday 4 wheeler Class C Drivers Licenses. Corrective lenses, daytime driving, no highway driving, outside mirrors, hearing aid, automatic transmission only, there are lots of them.

But everywhere, even in Texas, the "L" Air Brake Restriction is ONLY for vehicles requiring a CDL. It doesn't apply to non-CLD vehicles or licenses at all.

"In Texas......You CAN NOT "Rent" a Penske / Budget type of Truck that is Equipped with Airbrakes Unless you have a CDL......."

Of course you can, as long as the vehicle is under 26,001 pounds. My brother's wife's sister, living in San Antonio, rented an International 4300 with a Maxon lift-gate from Penske, and it had air brakes. But it was less-than 26,001 pounds. She doesn't have a CDL. I helped her move to a new apartment. Typical Penske trucks which have air brakes are also trucks that weight more than 26,000 pounds, and thus a CDL is required. But none of Penske's personal moving trucks, including the ones they have with air brakes, require any special license to drive. More and more Penske trucks, mostly from International and Freightliner, that are under 26,001 pounds are coming with air brakes.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
This exact same issue was discussed 8 years right here on this very board.........

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/truck-talk/21486-non-cdl-air-brakes.html

And John Muellar ended a well informed post with basically the same sentiments I had above:

I see them as being legally operated by a person without a CDL. That is my opinion. We all know that my opinion may not be the same as the law enforcement official who issues you a citation.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it......

Again.....Personally........I will NOT Operate a CMV.....whether it be a 12ft Box Truck.....or a 25,999 GVWR Box Truck that is equipped with Air Brakes in a "For Hire" capacity WITHOUT a CDL that doesn't also have an Air Brake Endorsement.......

It's threads like this.....where there's several different interpretations and opinions.......that get's wanna-be <snort> "Professional Drivers" in Trouble at Chicken Coops all over the Country.........
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
All you have to do is read the regulations. And, of course, be able to understand them.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
This exact same issue was discussed 8 years right here on this very board.........

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/truck-talk/21486-non-cdl-air-brakes.html

And John Muellar ended a well informed post with basically the same sentiments I had above:



Again.....Personally........I will NOT Operate a CMV.....whether it be a 12ft Box Truck.....or a 25,999 GVWR Box Truck that is equipped with Air Brakes in a "For Hire" capacity WITHOUT a CDL that doesn't also have an Air Brake Endorsement.......

It's threads like this.....where there's several different interpretations and opinions.......that get's wanna-be <snort> "Professional Drivers" in Trouble at Chicken Coops all over the Country.........

Your personal feelings on what you will and won't do have no impact on what the regulations clearly state. If you decided that you wouldn't drive a car without a class A that doesn't mean that is what is required of everyone. Even John agrees that it is legal to run a truck with air brakes provided it is 26k lbs or less without a CDL.

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BobWolf

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Individual states can and do add restrictions when it comes to CMVs. Even New York state had airbrake restrictions up until ten or so years ago.

Bob Wolf
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Oh, the answer is known, and Paullud & Turtle posted it. What's typical is that it gets argued anyhow. :rolleyes:
 
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