News Coverage of Florida Crash

guest · Feb 4, 2006

I saw the following story on CNN today:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/03/bus.crash/index.html

Note how they dance around the hours of service issue. They say he had been awake for 34 hours straight with just a short nap, but that he had not necessarily violated the hours of service rules.

Maybe if the rules were more in line with reality drivers would actually sleep more rather than making sure they drive 11 hours straight. If a guy runs 11 and takes 10 off, during which time he eats, showers, makes some phone calls, does some paperwork and takes a four hour nap, and then drives another 11, he will have driven 22 out of 32 hours and will only have slept four hours. Totally legal. But the team that wants to go five on and five off....

ATeam · Feb 4, 2006

You put your finger on the fundamental flaw of HOS rulemaing. The wrong body is doing it.

FMCSA does not have jurisdiction over shippers and consignees. It does not have jurisdiction over what drivers do in their free time (thank goodness). Yet FMCSA is left with the responsibility for making HOS rules, so it regulates only what it can, which has a lot to do with trucks and truckers, but not much else to do with reality. The result is rules that are bizzare on their face and ineffective in achieving their desired intent.

I'm beginning to believe that because FMCSA has shown the repeated inability and/or unwillingness to rise above its mypoic, one-size-fits-all approach to HOS rulemaking, it would be more appropriate for another body to be given that responsibility, Congress, I think.

In other words, instead of Congress delegating HOS rulemaking to FMCSA, it's time for Congress itself to bring all concerned parties to the table and hammer out HOS rules that mute the voices of the extremists (who see HOS an an opportunity to push their single-issue agendas), and take a more balance approach that address all reasonable concerns.

It' can't just be ATA (American Trucking Association) carriers making the rules. It can't just be lawyers in court citing dubious scientific studies. It can't just be OOIDA or CRASH or any other single group. And it can't just be FMCSA bureaucrats. It has to be a group of all concerned parties committed to the equal goals of trucking safety and productivity.

Such an initiatiave will not come from Congress itself, since people there are more reactive than proactive (a fact known and exploited by highly-skilled, well-funded, single-issue extremists). But if a group of concerned citizens representing all concerned sectors worked out HOS rules of their own and brought them to Congress to be enacted into law, the nation's truckers and all who share the roads and work with them might be better off for it.

A hopeless dream?

Perhaps.

Then again, perhaps not.

Crazynuff · Feb 5, 2006

The HOS are totally useless where being effective in assuring adequate rest is concerned . A couple of weeks ago I read a letter in " The Trucker " from a reader who was complaining his carrier took possesion of his truck while he was in a casino . He went off duty at 10:00 a.m. and went in the casino at 11:00 a.m. and left his cell phone in the truck which had a Qualcomm . He came out of the casino at 12:15 a.m. " to get some rest " and found the truck gone . Over 13 hours in a casino and by HOS standards he could have legally gotten in and driven .
I doubt if any driver sleeps more tan 6 or 7 hours . Suppose you run solo and stop just outside a large city around 11:00 p.m. because your 14 hours are up and get in the sleeper . Does it make sense to wake up at 5:00 a.m and have to sit and wait for rush hour to start driving ? Beside consuming more fuel and causing more traffic congestion , HOS says you can stay on duty a few more hours at the end of the day because you didn't go on duty until a few hours after you woke up . Isn't allowing you to work until 10:00 p.m after being awake at 5:00 a.m. actually causing the fatigue HOS is supposed to prevent ?

RichM · Feb 5, 2006

Last week I attended a FEDEXCC meeting and the log book and HOS issues were discussed by a Log Book auditor. One item that should draw everyone's attention is that they stated they were going to start spot checking logbook enties vs Qualcomm polling locations.
Discrepancies could cause you to loose your contract.

highway star · Feb 5, 2006

"One size fits all" will never work no matter who's involved in negotiating the format.

davekc · Feb 5, 2006

The lobbyists that bring the most dollars to the table will likely see rules slanted for their benefit. Just about every other industry is addressed in this fashion and transportation would be no different in my opinion.
Not really a political party item as both democrats and republicans have been engaged in this for the last 30 years.

Only serious reform is going to change something like this.

Davekc
owner
21 years
PantherII
EO moderator

guest · Feb 9, 2006

Here is my humble opinion about what is wrong with the HOS rules:

I read the HOS regulations, preamble and all, and you cannot help but be impressed with the amount of research they have done with respect to the effect of fatigue on performance and the amounts of rest that are necessary for proper rejuvenation. What the regulations do not address, however, is the fact that the current structure provides no incentive for a driver to rest WHEN HE IS TIRED. If he is not tired when is taking his break, then all of the science about rest periods is pointless. What any HOS rules need to do is make sure that ANY TIME a driver is tired he has an incentive to pull over and rest RIGHT THEN. It's so simple really, but for some reason no one seems to get it. This sounds naive, and I know it won't happen, but if some of the rule makers would spend a week in an over the road truck their perspective on the HOS rules would be vastly improved.

Black boxes will make the problem worse, because under a black box system there will be strictly enforced rest periods where a lot of drivers will still not be resting.

TeamDrivers2 · Feb 10, 2006

>Last week I attended a FEDEXCC meeting and the log book and
>HOS issues were discussed by a Log Book auditor. One item
>that should draw everyone's attention is that they stated
>they were going to start spot checking logbook enties vs
>Qualcomm polling locations.
>Discrepancies could cause you to loose your contract.

We were in attendance for the meeting also:

I can ceratinly understand their position with all the DOT regs and the attempt to cover their #####'s. Now they can prove to both DOT & Insurance Co. that they made the effort to enforce.

Loose contract ??? Hardly likely.... You'd really have to pull a serious to even be threatened with that.

RichM · Feb 10, 2006

Team drivers,,On the last sheet of paper that the log book auditor gave out,the last sentence states that they will be checking with Q/comm for actual locations.The auditor told me the checks would most likely be made in the event of an accident or violation. This would cause you to have your contract reviewed. You know this is a method for companies to protect themselves in the event of an accident. If your logbook indicates you were in a different status or location they could argue that you and only you are fully responsible since you were driving illegaly.

The first lawsuit was filed against Crete today for the accident that killed 7 children. The lawsuit claims the driver hadn't slept in 34 hours. This is based on Cell phone calls and BOL's etc. However since the driver of the vehicle that the Crete driver hit did not have a license,the owners of that vehicle will be considered partially responsible. Should be a real mess before it's over with.

redytrk · Feb 10, 2006

>Last week I attended a FEDEXCC meeting and the log book and
>HOS issues were discussed by a Log Book auditor. One item
>that should draw everyone's attention is that they stated
>they were going to start spot checking logbook enties vs
>Qualcomm polling locations.
>Discrepancies could cause you to loose your contract.

Oh,Oh,...Looks like we are going to have to be more carefull when choosing the town we put on the log. Often we have used the town listed on the nearest exit sign. Often this town is 50 miles off the freeway.

cheri1122 · Feb 11, 2006

As long as we're wishing for what seems impossible, (government regulations based on common sense, not campaign contributions, or "I'll support your deal if you'll support mine" arrangements), how about going whole hog & wishing that tired drivers could have somewhere to park when they need to?
I recall quite a few nights when I finished my 11 hours of driving, & 14 or 15 on duty, only to find every space in truckstops and rest areas full. After blocking the one clear lane through a rest area long enough to use the rest room, I sometimes just cried from absolute exhaustion, because I had no choice but to head out on the highway & keep looking. Knowing that I was way too tired to be a safe driver, but not having any choice, I was fortunate to avoid the kind of accident the rules are supposed to prevent. (On the other hand, maybe it would have highlighted the serious shortage of safe parking for tractor trailers today.) Sometimes I wished I had the "Norma Rae" kind of guts it would take to just refuse to move, and tell the truth when someone called the Highway Patrol to report my truck blocking the way.

davekc · Feb 11, 2006

There clearly is a lack of parking in many areas. But of course, the American Trucking Association (ATA) says there are many spaces, but truckers don't seem to know where they are at.
Ummm???? I wonder where they might be talking?

Davekc
owner
21 years
PantherII
EO moderator

Crazynuff · Feb 12, 2006

I stay mostly in the Midwest and rarely have a problem finding a parking space . I know the NE is very difficult and many shopping centers strictly ban truck parking . I try to find a spot before 8p.m. . After 10 spots are real scarce . If you run all night spots start opening around 5 or 6 a.m. . Nothing is more annoying than pulling into a large rest area in the very early a.m. and seeing 53 footers parked in the lane behind designated parking . They will be blocking 2 or more open spaces when the trucks they park behind leave . Then there's those FEMA trailers pulling all those unneeded trailers . Half the parrishes in LA refuse to allow them to be set up and more than 3/4 of those trailers just go to staging areas .

greg334 · Feb 12, 2006

Friscomike said â€“ â€œI read the HOS regulations, preamble and all, and you cannot help but be impressed with the amount of research they have done with respect to the effect of fatigue on performance and the amounts of rest that are necessary for proper rejuvenation.â€

Sorry I am not impressed, a bunch of c**p, they did not cite or even consider the studies that cost millions upon millions of dollars the DOE and DOD did on Fatigue. These studies clearly state that working a consistent amount of hours without multiple breaks is dangerous and counter productive. I would rather trust a ten year sleep deprivation study done by the DOD than the DOT rule making body.

I will say it again, want it changed, get involved.

terryandrene · Feb 12, 2006

Robert Benchley and Greg said that.

Broompilot · Feb 12, 2006

All truck drivers are law breakers, take the whole bunch of them out and shoot em.

Now how will America move its freight? Mexican labor thats the answer good law obbiding citizens they are...... just like us truck drivers,,,,,,

BigBusBob · Feb 13, 2006

Hello everybody, from IdleAire at the Petro in west memphis...
been awhile since I used their system...

anyways, commenting on the North Central FL bus/truck accident....
The truck driver went into the woods at a 45 degree angle roughly - judging by the pics I saw in the papers. That tells me he was trying to `avoid something. Also, they dont talk about it but the area does have a curve before the scene of the crash. Perhaps he was doing the posted speed limit (60 in that area) and rounded that curve and simply did not have enough time to come to a safe and/or controlled stop. unfortunately there were fatalities. However, if he had not put it into the woods there no doubt would have been many more. I do believe the bus driver needs to be looked into further as I don't believe she should have stopped where she did near a curve/bend in the road. of course though the truck driver gets rap for violating HOS. They're strict on school bus drivers being safe, but I would vote for a drivers cam for them.
I also think they should have to log as well, and keep track of their time the way regular tour bus drivers have to.
I think you might see a change in school bus accidents then.

Driving tour busses for a long time, the log book was a joke - you'd be surprised.However you don't hear about tour bus accidents all that much do you? School bus drivers have alot more accidents I'd say tha tour busses do - passenger tour busses log a DOT log, on the 10 hour rule (10 hours driving, 15 hr total, 8 off). School bus drivers log what? 4 hours in the morning, 4 hr. in the PM? They should have a better logging system.

Actually, now that I drive 18 wheelers, I find it easier and much more comforting to know that I can log alot more legally... mainly because I've got that 10 hour break. I will also add that it is easier to park a straight truck and tour busses than it is an 18 wheeler. The space you need for an 18 wheeler to manuever in and through is amazing. I usually run into the midnite hour and I find myself goin' to 3 or 4 exits or farther before I find a parking spot. I've already been chased off entrance ramps by a TN state trooper. I like to go to the terminals when I'm near one, I can get a free shower and a parking space with no problem.. I'm safe, there's fuel there for me, and if I need parts or service for the truck, it's simply a matter of asking for them. Most of the time the wait is minimal. The hardest part in Swift is finding a decent MT trailer to hook to. They're like gold.

Well, thats my scoop...
headin' to Huntsville, AL area on Monday AM. From there who knows.
I'm keepin in the lower SE and lower Midwest so far, but slowly being stretched further east and further west.

Later All, BigBob

Tennesseahawk · Feb 13, 2006

This is a classic case of negligence. No reason that driver should've been driving after that long without sleep. This has nothing to do with HOS, as they weren't violated. However, I see the cry for more stringent rules because 7 whelps were killed. Tragic? Yes! The driver's fault? Most likely. I'll leave that to the courts. But don't lump all of us in with one particular driver who doesn't have a lick of sense.