My children come home crying
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
You sir, are an inspiration.
Sarcasm? From someone that has proven numerous times that they aren't familiar with the truth? Proof that ignorance is bliss.
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moose
Veteran Expediter
We do well enough to know that Canada's law's{or shell we say, proposed laws} are out of control in prohibiting the practice of religious.
it's 'religious neutrality' should concern ANY religious man. the words Hypocrisy & Irony don't even come close to describe the stupidity.
Quebec releases controversial ?values charter,? proposes that anyone giving, receiving public services would need face uncovered | National Post
Ask the Religion Experts: Does Quebec?s Charter of Values really pose a threat to religious freedom?
Outrage and Irony | Quebec Proposes Ban on Religious Wear | MuslimMatters.org
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paullud
Veteran Expediter
Truth about what? When it comes to beliefs or lack there of truth isn't a word I would use. I believe one thing to be true and you believe another, we are probably both wrong on different levels.
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moose
Veteran Expediter
If you have something to add to this conversation, please do so in a calm and passionate matters. calling names without making a point is counter productive.
your welcome.
Moose those are provincial laws, not federal.
paullud
Veteran Expediter
I didn't call anyone a name, I just pointed out that the statement was an ignorant one. That means what he said was wrong so no further explanation would be needed.
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I think all provinces in Canada fully fund both public and separate (Catholic) schools, so this normally wouldn't be an issue. This case is somewhat different in that Alberta allows prayer in public schools.
WanderngFool
Active Expediter
Instead of saying my statement was ignorant without saying in what way, maybe you could impart some wisdom. What did I say that was ignorant and how would you correct it?
paullud
Veteran Expediter
You said let's put science in church and acted like people that go to church are ignorant on science which is complete ignorance. You really needed that explained to you?
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Well isn't religions stance ..the earth is only 6,000 + - years old
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The definition of meaningless is, without meaning, significance, purpose, or value; purposeless; insignificant. To an agnostic or an atheist, that's precisely what the Lord's Prayer is.
I don't disagree with any of that. But by that doesn't by inference mean the Lord's Prayer is damaging. There is nothing in the Lord's Prayer that indicates any religion, must less an organized one, nor can anything in there be blamed for any of the world's ills. It is perhaps the most innocuous, unobjectionable set of text ever penned. It only becomes objectionable when someone attaches their won agenda to it for a political purpose.
Would you not agree that the purpose of school education is to prepare our children for life as an adult in society? Schools have always reflected the communities in which they exist, because they reflect the values and wishes of the parents and others within that society. Some communities are very religious oriented, some are not. Some communities are agricultural based, some are industrial based, some are technical based, others are service or tourism based. The schools in all cases tend to reflect those community circumstances.
For example, with the Industrial Revolution, many schools had to be redesigned to prepare a largely immigrant labor force for new forms of work and citizenship. But those schools were very different than the schools in the farming Midwest. Some outsider, or an individual or small group of parents telling an Iowa community that their schools must educate people the same way that east cost and large city schools do is just as ridiculous as someone telling a religious community that their way of life and values cannot be taught to their children in their own schools. It's not about giving an inch, it's about a very small group demanding that a very large group acquiesce to their wishes.
A one-size-fits-all approach to all public schools everywhere, regardless of the community, is as ridiculous as a one-size-fits-all approach to truckers' Hours of Service. Historically with schools, and by historically I mean going back thousands of years, the best schools are the schools that changes which come with systemic reflection, rather than reflexive reactions causing change. A systemic reflection is something that is a reflection of the system as a whole, meaning the overall community at large. A reflexive reaction is one that is a response to something specific, as in the case of one parent's wishes, or the wishes of an outside entity, something that doesn't necessarily reflect the overall community.
Communities tend to have certain things that everyone has in common, things which bind them and unite them. Such as, there are communities where an overwhelming percentage of the population is of a particular religion (or of a political party, in fact), where people interact and communicate with each other within that context. People of the Midwest and people of the east coast often don't see eye-to-eye on many things. Notherners are somewhat out of place in the Deep South, and visa versa. Same with flatlanders up on a mountain. Effective communication is not as easy with people of disparate cultures, even cultures as seemingly similar as people from the Ozarks and people from the Appalachians.
These cultural, community-wide values and communication references are taught to the children in the schools of those communities. When changes are made in each generation, with young minds with fresh ideas and a new way of looking at things grow up and teach their values to the children, that's when systemic reflection happens, and when the community remains a community. When reflexive reaction changes occur that forces an unnatural change, people resist, because they are no longer bound by community and culture.
Every year Humbolt, TN has Strawberry Festival. It's an event that over the last 75 years has become a uniting way of life in the community. Can you imagine the ridiculousness of a single parent campaigning to end the festival because her child has a strawberry allergy and therefore cries because they can't participate in the festival, because their self-esteem is damaged because of the festival, because other kids tease them because they can't eat strawberries? Perhaps these strawberry maniacs could give an inch an decide that strawberries celebrated in the home, and only in the home, might be enough.
If I haven't learned anything in my time on this planet, I've learned that at a time when prayer was prevalent in schools across the nation's communities, crime was a low levels and respect for elders and others were high, and since prayer has been removed from schools the opposite has happened on all counts.
moose
Veteran Expediter
i went Googling because i almost never heard of it before.Sorry Moose, but...
Apology excepted!
Well, OK, maybe not Judaism, not with that forgiving of debtors part in there.
actually, the only time i DID heard of it before was when it was presented to me by a very good Christians friends of mined in Minnesota. they did took the time to explain how it played into their lifestyle.
Excuse me for taking their word of it over your or LEO word, you have no chance.
not knowing enough about other religious, i can only express that your{& LEO} views as explained in this tread, do not apply to Jewish religions.
Go-d do not rest in Heaven.
hallow, dose NOT translate well enough to describe the act of warship on any of the languish's used by Jews.
the Kingdom is NOT Go-d's kingdom. but an acceptance of Go-d's kingdom & the preparations for, by the praying person.
...& so on.
sorry, but the 'Lord's Prayer' cannot, & will never be a part of Jewish tradition. they have more then enough pryers of their own, they do not need Christianity to invent new-ones for them.
Jews do not call G-ods 'Lord'.
having said that, i think that you missunderstand my position on this matters. money is the worst inventions of mankind, and G-od is the best invention of mankind. i have no problem what-so-eve with the teaching & experimenting with religious in public schools. fact is, our F-16 pilots {or in nowdays drone operators} around the world have no idea what-so-eve what they are fighting against. because they never had the opportunity to experience that. same goe's to many politicians nowdays. how can someone have ANY opinion on Muslim, without visiting a mosque ???, it's not like they are hard to find.
Religion's stance? On the whole? No. One small subset of a particular religion? Yes.
There are religions that believe the world to be millions or billions of years old, and they believed that long before science confirmed it.
There are also religions that believe The Flintstones is a documentary.
According to Hinduism, Bhagwan Ved Vyas explains in the Bhagwatam that 155.52 trillion years have passed since Brahma originally created this planetary system, and this is the present age of Brahma, and thus is the exact age of the planet Earth, the Sun, and the entire solar system.
6,000 + - years old... 155.52 trillion years old.... the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Not really accurate moose. When reciting the schma, jews say, "the lord our g-d, the lord is one"
Explain please
WanderngFool
Active Expediter
I "acted like". Huh?
Here's what I said to explain the science and church post
I was making a "what if the shoe was on the other foot?" argument. Somehow you missed that and instead would rather tell me I "acted like" something or other.
Here's an idea. Instead of putting me down, how about expressing your views on, I dunno, religion?
HOW the Lord's Prayer is used in someone's life or their lifestyle is irrelevant to my statement. In order to make the case that the Lord's Prayer espouses Christianity, you MUST go outside of the prayer itself and use other sources to do so. There is not one word or one phrase in that prayer that says anything about Christianity. And there's certainly nothing in there that is contrary to Jewish principles.
I nor Leo said that it did.
God (or G-d for you Jewish types) rests wherever he darn well well pleases. God is omnipresent.
I never said it did.
How can you have an acceptance of God's kingdom if it's not God's kingdom?
In any case, "Our Father in Heaven," was the opening line of many Hebrew prayers, and still is for a lot of them. I know that and I'm not even Jewish.
[quote...& so on.
sorry, but the 'Lord's Prayer' cannot, & will never be a part of Jewish tradition.[/quote]I never said it was part of the Jewish tradition. I said Judaism has similar prayers to that of the Lord's Prayer.
If you are familiar with the the first portion of the Kaddish, a synagogue prayer, you'll remember that it says, “Magnified and sanctified be his great name throughout the world which he has created according to his will, and may he establish his Kingdom in your lifetime…”
That's awfully similar to
"Your kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven."
It's not exactly the same, but it's similar, which is what I said in the first place.
Jesus of course spoke Aramaic, and formal Jewish prayers are in Hebrew, so the actual literal words are obviously going to be different in any translation. But the Shemoneh Esrei and Kaddish are both similar in structure and though of the Lord's Prayer, and predates it by a long shot.
Even the Lord's Prayer is a Jewish prayer. After Jesus’ teaching about the Torah in Matthew 5, he continues the sermon on the mount by talking about acts of righteousness (tzedakah). He tells them to do them in secret, just as they are to pray in secret, not with many words before men. And he goes on to not only tell them, but to show them, where he then says, “You, therefore, pray like this:" and the recites the Lord's Prayer. It's a prayer that illustrates HOW to pray, rather than a prayer to be memorized and parroted. He didn't say PRAY THIS, he said pray LIKE THIS. He was continuing to interpret Torah, to teach them how to approach God in prayer. And his prayer was influenced by the elements of the Judaism of his day. It's ironic that almost everything that Christians think of being Christian, including artifacts, comes from Judaism.
You should go to the Old Testament, which was written by Hebrews, and explain that to 1 Chronicles 29:11
Thine, O Lord is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.
God'll get you for that.
I completely agree. Go there, participate, see what it's all about.
I wouldn't make the same suggestion about everything, however. Like, you know, homosexuality.