My children come home crying

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
'Stupid woman', 'phoney excuse'. Because you just know these things, huh?
:rolleyes:
Stupid is sending your kids to a public school and expecting them to be taught any religion, because that's not the job of a public school. There are no shortage of religious schools, if it is important to parents, they should be sending their kids there.
I'd be willing to bet that the complaining parents are the same ones who have books removed from the library because: 'Hucklebery Finn' has the word '******' in it. 'Harry Potter' contains 'magic'. 'To Kill A Mockingbird' mentions sex and rape. Children should not know such things exist, I guess.
Books like those are pulled from school libraries all the time, because one parent complained. And you know what the difference is, when it happens? The school never identifies the complainant. In this case, they did, though. I wonder why....
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Elementary school age children don't come home crying because of a rote recital. The mother is the one that has the problem with it, not her children. I know it because common sense knows it.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Elementary school age children don't come home crying because of a rote recital. The mother is the one that has the problem with it, not her children. I know it because common sense knows it.

Ooohh, I see. Well, common sense in my vocabulary knows that there might be more to the story than was provided in the one article, if one cared to look. I did, [the link in the article] and there is a wee bit more info that was left out: her son came home crying because he was disciplined for not participating in the Lord's Prayer, which the school did not deny.
Puts a bit of a different light on it, IMO.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
'Stupid woman', 'phoney excuse'. Because you just know these things, huh? :rolleyes:
Yep. It's human nature. She's not using any common sense at all, she's simply trying to get her way using, as Leo says, a phony excuse. Just look at her comments in the letter she wrote:

“As a society and a school community we strive to teach acceptance of others and the importance of diversity, but where is the acceptance of others who do not practice the Christian religion.”

The fact is, the society of the local community decides how local school operate and what gets taught. Introducing the liberal invention of the "importance of diversity" indicates her complaint is part of an agenda, because local communities that aren't diverse have no need to teach the importance of diversity, because it's a non-issue. Plus, teaching the acceptance of others is not, nor has it ever been a school function, it's a societal function.

In her interview with the Lethbridge Herald, she stated, "There is no diversity and acceptance of other religions with the Lord’s Prayer. You want religion in the public school system? Teach them all.”

The problem with that is, the community doesn't consist of all of the religions. There are Muslim communities in both Alberta and Saskatchewan where Muslim prayers, and only Muslim prayers, are recited in school. The school reflects the community, whatever that community may be. It always has. School boards are supposed to listen to the parent's wishes in total, rather than bow down to the wishes of a single parent. Schools are supposed to reflect the tradition and culture of the school community.

The other biggie is the fact that nothing whatsoever in the Lord's Prayer identifies it as being of the Christian religion. The Jewish prayer is very similar, the Hindu Gayatri Mantra is also similar, as is the Muslim Surat Al-Fātiĥah. The Lord's Prayer doesn't promote Christianity in any way, shape or form to anyone who isn't Christian. To Christians it merely confirms their beliefs, but the prayer alone won't turn anyone into a Christian.

Ms. Bell also stated in her letter, "that hearing the Lord's Prayer over the school's P.A. system is a violation of her children's human rights of freedom of religion."

That's a load of crap, since no religion is espoused. If they start giving Sunday School Bible lessons over the PA in the morning then she's got a legitimate gripe, but If her kids don't believe in a Heavenly Father, then hearing about one isn't gonna convince them.

Stupid is sending your kids to a public school and expecting them to be taught any religion, because that's not the job of a public school.
Stupid is sending your kids to a public school that has a Constitutional Exemption specifically to allow prayer in the school and then complaining about it.

Books like those are pulled from school libraries all the time, because one parent complained. And you know what the difference is, when it happens? The school never identifies the complainant. In this case, they did, though. I wonder why....
For one, books are rarely pulled from school libraries because of a single complaint from a parent. I've never heard of an instance where that's happened. Secondly, "they" identified this woman because she gave an interview with the Lethbridge Herald and had a very public campaign of her own doing to have the Lord's Prayer removed, including letters to the school principle, the school board, letters to and ads taken out in the Lethbridge Herald, and was outspoken in public school board meetings. So she identified herself without "they" having to do it.

She bluntly states that she's not anti-Christian, as she's an agnostic with a Catholic mother and a Mormon father, and has attended Baptist churches in the past. She says, “I’m not for or against it. I’m saying if you are going to do it then diversify. If you are going to say one, then devote 30 minutes to every religion (found) at the school. We teach diversity and acceptance as parents, as a school and as a community. There is no diversity and acceptance of other religions with the Lord’s Prayer. You want religion in the public school system? Teach them all.”

Yet that's disingenuous, not credible, as no agnostic would say that. "Teach them all" is a statement made because she knows it wouldn't happen, and couldn't happen. But if it were to happen, say if there where Christians, 4 Jews and 3 Muslims in the school, and the devoted 30 minutes to each, then she'd find some argument to be made that an agnostic time allotment isn't made. The really silly thing about her claiming to be agnostic is, the very definition of agnosticism is that the religious claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity is unknown, so, by definition, a belief in a God, or a disbelief of a God, both must be unobjectionable. An atheist has a legitimate objection to prayer in school, as well as a believer has a legitimate objection to the absence of all mentions of religion in school. Which makes her objections disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid.

I've never seen nor heard of anyone being damaged by hearing the Lord's Prayer for the 8 seconds it takes to hear it. If you're agnostic of atheist then the Lord's Prayer is meaningless and therefore incapable of harm. Well, the first three petitions are meaningless to an agnostic or an atheist, but the other four are simply good sense and a civil way of conducting yourself, and cannot be objectionable to anyone with a sound mind and a modicum of intelligence.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
Let's put science in church. That would open a few eyes. I can't see how exposing children to Newton, Einstein and Darwin could be harmful.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Let's put science in church. That would open a few eyes. I can't see how exposing children to Newton, Einstein and Darwin could be harmful.

Can't do that...debunks a lot of religious theory...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using EO Forums mobile app
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
you are spot WRONG in presenting your case, as it appear in this part:
The other biggie is the fact that nothing whatsoever in the Lord's Prayer identifies it as being of the Christian religion. it certainly dose!. am not an expert on this matters{doh'a}, so i went Wikipedia. here are some of what to be found:..."Jesus instructs his listeners to pray in the manner prescribed in the prayer."..." "there is a sense of solidarity in knowing that Christians around the globe are praying together..., and these words always unite us.""{to name a few}. Lord's Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Jewish prayer is very similar,the Jewish prayer, especially the morning ones, are nothing BUT identifying it as a Jewish prayer. it determine the whole relations between a Jewish person, the time, the place, and the {what you will call} Go-d. for example, when a Jewish kid wakes up in the morning, & before he gets out of bed, the very 1st thing he dose is thanking Go-d for waking him up. he then wash his hands, and say another morning prayer. he then say another symbolic prayer as he place a 'kipa' on his head & identify it as an agreement between himself, the time, and Go-d. another one is when he touches the floor for the first time- thanking HIS Go-d for making of earth. he then goe's {finelly!!!} to the bathroom and when he goe's out he thanks Go-d for creating his buddy in such a remarkable way. by the time a Jewish kid make's it to school, he already made a lotta prayers. the last thing that kid will do, while in bed before going to sleep, is pray for Go-d to watch over him while he is asleep. {i can go on & on, but you get the idea} the Hindu Gayatri Mantra is also similar, as is the Muslim Surat Al-Fātiĥah. this is also a mistake, {Gosh it reads wrong in English} click here to listen:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Surah_Al_fatiha104.ogg . it's certainly an important part of any Muslim, & reflect the obligation of a Muslim person to his Go-d, asking for guidelines, and is an important part of Muslim religion . a good read here:{the part on philosophy is very interesting} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fatiha
The Lord's Prayer doesn't promote Christianity in any way, shape or form.
sorry to disagree. but the fact that it's originated in the NT speaks volume .
as stated- spot wrong.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Anyone of any faith that believes in a deity could recite that and be just as applicable as anyone else unlike things like the Rosary etc.. It is denomination/religion neutral.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
So your familiar with Canadian laws? How about we do this, the very few who are offended by prayer in school pay to attend private school? One person is upset so everyone else has to adhere to what she wants. What about the parents who are offended by no prayer her wishes should trump there's? Things are *** backwards in this world.

Sent from my Fisher Price - ABC 123
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Let's put science in church. That would open a few eyes. I can't see how exposing children to Newton, Einstein and Darwin could be harmful.

The church is private and can teach what they wish, sorry but dumb comparison.

Sent from my Fisher Price - ABC 123
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
The church is private and can teach what they wish, sorry but dumb comparison.

Sent from my Fisher Price - ABC 123

Not only private but tax free private and protected in many ways by the state. I was just referring to the separation of church and state that we enjoy in this country. Does Canada have a similar tradition? I don't know. But I do know that the same people who don't want to honor that separation would change their tune pretty quickly to keep the state out of their churches.

I was also referring to Turtle's assertion that children are unaffected by what enters their ears. That imho is untrue.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Are you referring to the "separation" of church and state mandated by the Constitution in Article I or the "separation" of church and state suggested at one point by Jefferson and currently widely promoted by the ACLU? Just curious which one of the two you are specifically referencing.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Let's put science in church. That would open a few eyes. I can't see how exposing children to Newton, Einstein and Darwin could be harmful.

Do you realize just how incredibly ignorant your views are?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EO Forums mobile app
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Sorry Moose, but you had to go to the New Testament in the Bible and to Wikipedia to find a Christian connection to the Lord's Prayer and how Christianity instructs people to use the prayer, and the religious context of the prayer itself. But there is nothing in the The Lord's Prayer that identifies Christianity in any way, shape or form. It doesn't even mention Jesus, or the Bible. Like Leo said, anyone of any faith in a deity could recite that prayer and would be just as applicable to their religion as to any other religion.

It starts off by acknowledging a deity and that you'll do whatever the deity wants:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.


Then it quickly moves on to hope for enough food for the day to sustain them:

Give us this day our daily bread,

And then goes directly into hoping that our sins will be forgiven, since we have rightly and civilly forgiven the sins of others against us:

and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.


And then asks for guidance so that we don't fall into temptation to do bad things so that we don't fall into evil acts:

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.


That's it. Nothing about Christianity at all. Not one word or phrase in there which identifies any particular religion. An adherent of Pastafarianism, or Buddhism, or Judaism, could recite the same prayer, and it would have the same exact meaning and gravity.

Well, OK, maybe not Judaism, not with that forgiving of debtors part in there. :D
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
Are you referring to the "separation" of church and state mandated by the Constitution in Article I or the "separation" of church and state suggested at one point by Jefferson and currently widely promoted by the ACLU? Just curious which one of the two you are specifically referencing.

Trick question, huh? Good one. :) Why get into the ACLU? Wouldn't it be more useful to read the letters Jefferson and Madison wrote and try to discover what was behind the sometimes vague language they used in the Constitution? The 1st Amendment does rock though, I'll grant you that. :)
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I was also referring to Turtle's assertion that children are unaffected by what enters their ears. That imho is untrue.
I never asserted any such thing. In fact, if asked, I will tell you that children and adults both are absolutely affected by what they see and hear. By everything they see and hear. Radio, television and print advertising illustrates that point very well.

What I said was, I've never seen nor heard of anyone being damaged by hearing the Lord's Prayer. And, if you're an agnostic or atheist, then the Lord's Prayer is meaningless and is therefore incapable of harm.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
I never asserted any such thing. In fact, if asked, I will tell you that children and adults both are absolutely affected by what they see and hear. By everything they see and hear. Radio, television and print advertising illustrates that point very well.

What I said was, I've never seen nor heard of anyone being damaged by hearing the Lord's Prayer. And, if you're an agnostic or atheist, then the Lord's Prayer is meaningless and is therefore incapable of harm.

But it's not meaningless. I will grant you that it's hard to imagine any harm. It's a gentle prayer.

If you tell someone something enough times they will believe it. Ok, that's probably not 100% true but almost. Expose someone to something enough and they'll become comfortable with it too. It's possible to imagine someone blaming organized religion for most of what's wrong in the world and not wanting their kid exposed to it.

Church and an exposure to religion at home isn't enough? Kids need to hear at school? On the bus? In the shopping mall? While walking down the street? My point is if some people object, maybe religious folks could give an inch and decide that 16 hours a day and 24 on the weekends might be enough.
 
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