Log book laws vs. rules

[AMonger]

It has been suggested by more than one person that, though no laws may violate the constitution, rules are somehow different. This reasoning is ridiculous on its face, seeing as the government, which is to be restrained by the chains of the constitution, would just make rules instead of laws and then proceed to do what they want, and the Bill of Rights would be effectively nullified. Second, it's the law that says a certain agency has the power to make rules on a given matter, so in the end, even if there's a rule, it's the law that says there can be a rule, so it would be the law in effect in either case.

But, more importantly, instead of employing reason, which confounds Demon-crats, we can simply consult settled court rulings, such as this one:

Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 426, 491; 86 S. Ct. 1603

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no 'rule making' or legislation which would abrogate them."

Therefore, logbook and HOS rules that violate the 4th & 5th amendments don't withstand constitutional muster.

QED

 

[Moot]

It has been suggested by more than one person that, though no laws may violate the constitution, rules are somehow different. This reasoning is ridiculous on its face, seeing as the government, which is to be restrained by the chains of the constitution, would just make rules instead of laws and then proceed to do what they want, and the Bill of Rights would be effectively nullified.

Oooh, oooh! I think you mean hang iron good buddy. I learned that today when I downloaded The Official Layman's Guide to Trucker Lingo. I believe T.J. (Thomas Jefferson) had something to say about the constitution and hanging iron.

Therefore, logbook and HOS rules that violate the 4th & 5th amendments don't withstand constitutional muster. QED

I think, therefore I van. QED.

 

[Turtle]

The sobriety checkpoint violates the Constitution, yet it's been upheld as Constitutional because the public safety outweighs the minimal intrusion of privacy. It's the same with heavy trucks and buses.

 

[AMonger]

The sobriety checkpoint violates the Constitution, yet it's been upheld as Constitutional because the public safety outweighs the minimal intrusion of privacy. It's the same with heavy trucks and buses.

And you don't see the contradiction in that? I mean, you didn't say it's a violation of the constitution but the government feels it's a necessary violation (which still is beyond their power); you said it's unconstitutional but upheld as constitutional.

(This post wasn't about the checkpoint but more about logbooks.)

Oh, btw, there was a ruling some years ago about checkpoints that said it is permissable to bring all traffic to a near-halt and watch them as they go by to look for probable cause, but note how that has morphed into ALL VEHICLES ARE SUBJECT TO SEARCH. Do you defend that?

 

[Turtle]

Of course I see a contradiction in that. Same as I can see the contradiction in the earned right of a driver's license. Common sense, reasoning and pragmatism allows me to realize that the mandated use of logs books for heavy trucks and buses is overridden by the safety of the public, and those who don't want to log can simply choose another profession. Like an airline pilot, or a ship captain, or a railroad engineer, or a blue shirt at Best Buy.

 

[layoutshooter]

Skinny eight and two is ten. You smell like an old wet hen.

 

[paullud]

I understand why HOS was implemented but I think there are far better ways to avoid fatigued driving that would not violate constitutional rights. We should not be allowing the government to violate rights in the name of safety, look how far they have taken it.(Patriot Act)

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[AMonger]

Of course I see a contradiction in that. Same as I can see the contradiction in the earned right of a driver's license. Common sense, reasoning and pragmatism allows me to realize that the mandated use of logs books for heavy trucks and buses is overridden by the safety of the public, and those who don't want to log can simply choose another profession. Like an airline pilot, or a ship captain, or a railroad engineer, or a blue shirt at Best Buy.

May the ghosts of the Founding Fathers rise from the grave and kick you in the *****. You want to be safe, don't leave the house and leave the rest of us alone. You want to amend the constitution, there are ways to do it.

 

[Turtle]

Thanks for sticking to the issues and not making it personal. It always makes for a more interesting conversation when you do that.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Looks like Jefferson was giving you a message, a hint just how bad it was.....when he said that once in a while a rebellion would be needed...

Just look at the increased usage of Executive Order....there is a crock...

and to make things even worse for the common citizen you have a SC that is leaning towards Partisan politics instead of the Constitution and being an independent entity...the whole system is falling apart...

 

[AMonger]

I understand why HOS was implemented but I think there are far better ways to avoid fatigued driving that would not violate constitutional rights. We should not be allowing the government to violate rights in the name of safety, look how far they have taken it.(Patriot Act)

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Yes, for an example, look to the fireworks issue. They're banned in varying degrees all over, some places more and some less. But is that freedom? Perhaps a better principle is, you're free to do as you wish without harming others.

Burn your neighbor's house down, and you're going to face consequences, primarily replacing his house.

Blow your hand off? Sucks to be you.

Maim someone else? You'll support him and maybe his family for the rest of his life.

Kill someone else? Draconian criminal penalties plus supporting his or her dependents.

Now apply that to trucking. Instead of logbooks and regulating individuals in ways repugnant to freedom, make it a law that every document is time stamped. The truckstop saves all fuel receipts for 30 days and shippers & receivers save BOLs for the same time. If, and only if, an accident occurs, those are collected and the driver's itinerary is recreated. If a jury believes he drove past his limits, then he gets hammered.

Hold people who harm others responsible and leave everybody else alone. Then expand this principle to the rest of society and let the ghosts of or founding fathers get some rest again.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Fireworks laws are state and local controlled... just as the Constitution states in the 10th Amendment. If you don't like those, or any other laws of your state, you can move to another state. Unfortunately, it's not so easy to move to a different country.

 

[paullud]

Yes, for an example, look to the fireworks issue. They're banned in varying degrees all over, some places more and some less. But is that freedom? Perhaps a better principle is, you're free to do as you wish without harming others.

Burn your neighbor's house down, and you're going to face consequences, primarily replacing his house.

Blow your hand off? Sucks to be you.

Maim someone else? You'll support him and maybe his family for the rest of his life.

Kill someone else? Draconian criminal penalties plus supporting his or her dependents.

Now apply that to trucking. Instead of logbooks and regulating individuals in ways repugnant to freedom, make it a law that every document is time stamped. The truckstop saves all fuel receipts for 30 days and shippers & receivers save BOLs for the same time. If, and only if, an accident occurs, those are collected and the driver's itinerary is recreated. If a jury believes he drove past his limits, then he gets hammered.

Hold people who harm others responsible and leave everybody else alone. Then expand this principle to the rest of society and let the ghosts of or founding fathers get some rest again.

I wouldn't have an issue with a huge fine for the driver ($100k) and company($1million) if the driver fell asleep. This gives both the driver and company a serious reason to run safely and not push it.

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[beachbum]

Miranda v. Arizona, was about being in custody and not being read your rights.

Courts have used a violation of the HOS many of times to convict people, The FMCSA uses a persons violating the HOS to put civil fines on people all the time, companies too. Don't you think that if these fines and criminal cases were unconstitutional then some where a company would have challenged them in court that way and if they did then it seems they lost that fight thru the courts.

The log book rules and most of the HOS have been law since 1937 or 8 don't you think they would have been overturned by a court by now if they were unconstitutional.

 

[beachbum]

Heck if Amonger is in a van then he has no HOS, unless he hauls placarded hazmat. therefore, Amonger like me has no dog in the show when it comes to HOS

 

[Rocketman]

Heck if Amonger is in a van then he has no HOS, unless he hauls placarded hazmat. therefore, Amonger like me has no dog in the show when it comes to HOS

EXACTLY....and yet another thread started in the general forum aimed directly at starting a political debate.

 

[paullud]

Miranda v. Arizona, was about being in custody and not being read your rights.

Courts have used a violation of the HOS many of times to convict people, The FMCSA uses a persons violating the HOS to put civil fines on people all the time, companies too. Don't you think that if these fines and criminal cases were unconstitutional then some where a company would have challenged them in court that way and if they did then it seems they lost that fight thru the courts.

The log book rules and most of the HOS have been law since 1937 or 8 don't you think they would have been overturned by a court by now if they were unconstitutional.

They have been challenged before but they have not been overturned in the courts because it is for the potential safety of someone. They created a rule to say that logs must be kept to circumvent the Constitution, because if you need to turn in the paperwork you are no longer protected by the Constitution.

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[Marty]

The federal government as well as the individual states have the constitutional right and obligation to protect their citizens.
During the early decades of the 20th century numerous fatal truck accidents occurred due to driver fatigue. Many trucking companies pushed their drivers well past reasonable limits.
The government enacted the Hours of Service regulations to protect it's citizens. Just as states earlier enacted traffic laws and driver's licensing requirements (in which private information is requested by government agencies), to protect it's citizens and this is constitutional. For the same reasons HOS regulations are also constitutional.

 

[pearlpro]

I abhor the Roadside Safety check, Roadblock, DUI Checkpoint or whatever term you want to use. I dont think the USA needs them, and the fact theyve gotten away with it for years just emboldens them to use them for more and more reasons, HOS is a good Idea, But those that are making these laws today havent got an Idea on the REAL WORLD of transportation, probably because they havent rode along, experienced whats going on or dont care. With the new HOS, Sleep Apnea, DOT Clinics, CSA Enactments, and on and on, are they trying to protect YOU, or run you out of business.

LAWS such as Anti Smoking, Cell Phone bans,Distracted Driving, now I hear theyre wanting to tell pet owners who have Pets in a vehicle that pet must be caged, and again On and On, are they protecting us, or harrassing us, do they know the difference ???

Taking the HOS determination away from the driver, forcing him/her to drive into a City like Atlanta at rush hour is dangerous, and no one there at CSA/FMCSA seems to care, they just want US DRIVERS, To work when they say, drive when they want, and dont care how hazardous, or how our decisions to get into and out of a city like that BEFORE rush hour, or after is a Better decision.
Decisions are somethings WE have been allowed to make, but lately Im worried that our ability to use the good sense weve got has been suspended for a LAW in a BOOK, made by people who just feel good about writing words no matter the result.