legal sleeper

Jack_Berry · Jun 6, 2007

seen this mentioned elsewhere here that someone had to have their sleeper wall inspected. down in the aerocell thread ldb said as how he would hang a bed ala dieseldr and put cabinets on the sides and sleep above the freight. how does this constitute a legal sleeper? my only guess is that you are sleeping above the freight but the driver could still be impacted by moving cargo. what am i missing?

Jack Berry

LDB · Jun 6, 2007

I run solo so if the driver is hit by freight while I'm sleeping there's a BIG problem. :+ Also, I believe since vans don't log etc. that changes the sleeper rules as well. This may, and probably will, all change in the next year or two when rules are rewritten to require vans to log.

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greg334 · Jun 6, 2007

Well I got to add something here.

When I was a managr of a transportation department of a lab, we had three cargo vans. One of them had no barrier to speak of between the cargo area and the seats. One night one of our great drivers decided to run a stop light and got nailed for it. In turn she was given a ticket for improper equipment, meaning no barrier. We ended up with it in our hands being it was our fault and paying to install the barrier and the ticket plus court cost. She did go to court and we tried to get the fine waived but the judge was clear about the safety equipment of a commercial cargo van in the state of Michigan - it is a law.

The bigger question for me is, many of these hot shot pickup truck drivers haul a lot more than 15K combined GVW, why isn't anyone making them log or have a legal sleeper?

Crazynuff · Jun 10, 2007

>Well I got to add something here.
>
>When I was a managr of a transportation department of a lab,
>we had three cargo vans. One of them had no barrier to speak
>of between the cargo area and the seats. One night one of
>our great drivers decided to run a stop light and got nailed
>for it. In turn she was given a ticket for improper
>equipment, meaning no barrier. We ended up with it in our
>hands being it was our fault and paying to install the
>barrier and the ticket plus court cost. She did go to court
>and we tried to get the fine waived but the judge was clear
>about the safety equipment of a commercial cargo van in the
>state of Michigan - it is a law.
>
>The bigger question for me is, many of these hot shot pickup
>truck drivers haul a lot more than 15K combined GVW, why
>isn't anyone making them log or have a legal sleeper?
All hotshots do log . They don't need legal sleepers as long as they don't log any sleeper berth time . Many spend nights in motels but there is nothing in FMSCA regulations saying how or where off duty time must be spent other than being relieved of duty and out of the truck . The FMSCA has printed " interpetations " of the law saying an unladen CMV can be driven a reasonable distance off duty for food or lodging . Some hotshotters consider deadheading a few hundred miles home a reasonable off duty distance .

greg334 · Jun 10, 2007

crazy,
I understand where you are coming from but many of them do not log, they do not abid by the laws (example Michigan - anything over 10K GVW must run at truck speeds) and many do not stay at hotels (I am watching one right now who is sleepinging in the back seat), or even scale. I get passed by a lot of them blowing by the scales and the states don't seem to care. The troopers I know do care about off duty time and sleeper time, they want to see hotel receipts and any other proof - but the problem is they can't chase everyone of them.

I strongly feel that they need to be treated just like I am when it comes down to running their rigs on the road, legal sleeper and pulling into scales - many of them are well over the 10K combined limit just with an empty trailer.

Crazynuff · Jun 12, 2007

Logging off duty does not require a motel stay . A driver can spend his full 10 hours off duty in a casino and legally get back in the truck and drive . Believe me , the majority of hotshotters resent the scofflaws as much as you do . Southern states like Tn , AL , TX and AR watch duallies closely . I've seen a lot of goosenecks parked at TN scales . Many hotshotters have their own authority . It's not cheap and they don't appreciate guys with diesel pickups going to U-Ship and running cheap loads to make a few dollars . You know all carriers with new authority can expect a DOT audit so they do their best to be compliant . I've seen a lot of pickups pulling goosenecks with no signs at all , not even a DOT number . This is an enforcement issue that needs to be remedied .

greg334 · Jun 12, 2007

>Logging off duty does not require a motel stay . A driver
>can spend his full 10 hours off duty in a casino and legally
>get back in the truck and drive . Believe me , the majority
>of hotshotters resent the scofflaws as much as you do .
>Southern states like Tn , AL , TX and AR watch duallies
>closely . I've seen a lot of goosenecks parked at TN scales
>. Many hotshotters have their own authority . It's not cheap
>and they don't appreciate guys with diesel pickups going to
>U-Ship and running cheap loads to make a few dollars . You
>know all carriers with new authority can expect a DOT audit
>so they do their best to be compliant . I've seen a lot of
>pickups pulling goosenecks with no signs at all , not even a
>DOT number . This is an enforcement issue that needs to be
>remedied .

Crazynuff
I understand what you mean but I can tell you a few MSP troopers will ask where is the receipt for the off duty hours if driver don't live near by and know of two cases where they told the driver you have a nice 10 hour rest.

Again, yesterday I returned to this truck stop and had to sit next to a hot shot truck and trailer for about three hours waiting for my spot to open. The truck had all the numbers, nice trailer with a lot of heavy stuff on it. He and his wife was sleeping in the truck and came out making comments that I woke them up. They could have just walked over to the hotel and got a room but slept in the truck.

Understand I am not trying to beat up on these guys just don't see a majority of them sleeping in hotels most of the time. I just feel if they are going to do the same job as I am with a truck and trailer that is carrying more than I am, they need to follow the same laws as I do with both their equipment and operations.

Crazynuff · Jun 13, 2007

After the hurricanes FEMA showed total ignorance . They shipped thousands more travel trailers than there were facilities (water , sewer ) for . Thousands of these trailers are still sitting in fields , never used . On top of that DOT made all the pickups hauling these things exempt from FMSCA regulations - no logging required . I heard some of them talking about running a day and a half non-stop . Then figure all the diesel fuel that was wasted without thousands of unneeded trips between Indiana and the Gulf .

Deville · Jun 16, 2007

What did any of this have to do with the orginal post? Whats a hOtshot?

greg334 · Jun 16, 2007

>What did any of this have to do with the orginal post?

Nothing really, I just threw it in there as a thought I had at the time.

OntarioVanMan · Jun 16, 2007

The way the Canadian law is: If I were to hire an"employee" I'd have to have a bulkhead as this is covered in the workplace safety laws BUT if I sub-contract I wouldn't have to. So hence O/O's don't have a bulkhead and not required under law.

Crazynuff · Jun 16, 2007

>What did any of this have to do with the orginal post? Whats
>a hOtshot?
The original post was about legal sleepers . Greg brought up the fact most hotshotters don't have them . At one time expedited freight was called hotshot . Now hotshot refers to 1 ton or medium duty trucks , usually crewcabs pulling fifthwheel or gooseneck trailers .

FIS53 · Jun 17, 2007

Several years back I discussed this with a Penn State Trooper and a NY state fella. Both stated that if your going to sleep in your van the bed had to be permanent attached to the truck. If a wall was being used to separate the cargo area from the sleeper, then the wall had to be of a type to withstand the cargo coming up and hitting it (can't remember the specs). You could however (now this may not apply every where or now but was ok back when) have the bed attached to the side wall and no wall inspection needed, just a barrier of some type to stop freight from hitting driver or passenger. The bed could fold up against the wall out of the way.

And to gregs point, yes i see lots of hotshotters sleeping in their trucks. Many in Ontario just sleep in their seats, no beds and not any proper sleeping arrangement in the truck. In fact I know of one company that all their drivers sleep in their trucks and few have a bed of some sort (and not a builtin either). How I know is I worked for them for awhile and I had a bed.

Rob Fis

greg334 · Jun 17, 2007

"The way the Canadian law is: If I were to hire an"employee" I'd have to have a bulkhead as this is covered in the workplace safety laws BUT if I sub-contract I wouldn't have to. So hence O/O's don't have a bulkhead and not required under law."

OK OVM, good point but let me add this.

Being a contractor you are self-employed and as a self-employed person you are treated as you're your own employer - hence have to follow the same rules, policies and laws that govern companies that employ people. Some of these laws have a cut in point, usually with 25 or more employees (ADA is one), while others dont care if you have one or 143,992 employees to apply.

I think Canada is the same as the US when it defines contractors, but again I only worked in Canada a handful of times as a contractor and let others worry about the details.

OntarioVanMan · Jun 17, 2007

Weird laws we have I have to protect the "employee" but not myself as the van is owned by me and my personal property its exempt from "workplace safty" Why? I haven't a clue but I did check this out when I started out in business in Canada.
When I go unto the property of another company I must follow thier workplace laws as down here...ie: Steel toes, hard Hat. safety glasses, vest....or whatever is required.

RLENT · Jun 17, 2007

Greg,

I run a van with no cargo bulkhead.

As far as I can tell from reading the FMCSA regs, and the Ohio "Truck Drivers Guidebook" published by the Office of Licensing and Commercial Standards, Motor Carrier Enforcement Unit, a cargo bulkhead or front end structure or headerboard is not required - unless the cargo is in contact with the front end structure and it (the front end structure) is being used to secure the cargo - provided that some other method is being used to secure the cargo, of course.

It's sort of a circular rule - in that if ya don't have it in the first place you sure ain't going to be using it to secure cargo ........ it appears that it was rewritten from the old rule to take in account certain types of vehicles where other means were used to secure the cargo.

Additionally, since vans under the 10K limit and are not considered a CMV, one could assume that none of the cargo securement regs apply (49 CFR 390.5)

From reading the MSP website it appears that MI follows the above regs as well. If you or anyone else have a reference or link to other regs that says a cargo bulkhead is required I'd definitely like to see it.