Justice is blind or just downright political

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Granted that this happened in the UK, but I know that the same sort of thing has happened here

Compare and contrast

Burn Remembrance poppies, and shout 'British soldiers burn in hell' - fine of £50 plus £15 costs.

Write Allah on a pigs head, stick it outside a mosque, write 'Rag Heads Out' on the wall, four months in the Big House.

I obviously do not approve of either action - but I do disagree with the verdicts.

Full story
Racist ex-soldier who stuck a pig's head to mosque gates in 'revenge' for extremists burning poppies is jailed for four months | Mail Online

For those who are unaware, the poppy is very symbolic in the UK, and in November each year you will hardly see a person not wearing a poppy .....

Remembrance - The Royal British Legion.

Turtle · Aug 30, 2012

Burning Remembrance poppies, and shouting 'British soldiers burn in hell' is bad, but it's really more of a free speech expression. Not a smart one, but it should be without penalty. Like burning the American flag here, it's not very smart, and it isn't looked upon very favorably, but it should be allowed. While the fine for burning the poppies was a pittance, the group behind it is officially banned and is classified as a terrorist group, so they aren't likely to get away with such a small punishment for anything again.

The Allah pig thing and the defacing of the mosque, a private property, that's more serious, because it incites tensions and the likelihood of violence. It may have been in retaliation for the poppy burnings, but he retaliated against people who had nothing to do with the burnings - he went after the religion instead. His actions would have been just as deplorable if he had done it at a synagogue or some church. And then he posted pictures of it on the Internet and boasted about his actions, thereby further inciting tensions. Four months is about right, I think. He's remorseful now, of course, and wants to apologize to the mosque, but he's had a long time to do that. If he had done it prior to being charged, like taken the pictures down after a few days and then made the apology, he probably wouldn't have gotten much of a sentence at all.

Many people, I'm sure, want to characterize the two incidents as simply a fifty pound fine for insulting British war dead, contrasted with four months in prison for insulting Islam, but that's not really what happened. The first in an insult, the second, while also insulting, was really an attack.

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
Burning Remembrance poppies, and shouting 'British soldiers burn in hell' is bad, but it's really more of a free speech expression. Not a smart one, but it should be without penalty. Like burning the American flag here, it's not very smart, and it isn't looked upon very favorably, but it should be allowed. While the fine for burning the poppies was a pittance, the group behind it is officially banned and is classified as a terrorist group, so they aren't likely to get away with such a small punishment for anything again.

The Allah pig thing and the defacing of the mosque, a private property, that's more serious, because it incites tensions and the likelihood of violence. It may have been in retaliation for the poppy burnings, but he retaliated against people who had nothing to do with the burnings - he went after the religion instead. His actions would have been just as deplorable if he had done it at a synagogue or some church. And then he posted pictures of it on the Internet and boasted about his actions, thereby further inciting tensions. Four months is about right, I think. He's remorseful now, of course, and wants to apologize to the mosque, but he's had a long time to do that. If he had done it prior to being charged, like taken the pictures down after a few days and then made the apology, he probably wouldn't have gotten much of a sentence at all.

Many people, I'm sure, want to characterize the two incidents as simply a fifty pound fine for insulting British war dead, contrasted with four months in prison for insulting Islam, but that's not really what happened. The first in an insult, the second, while also insulting, was really an attack.

Yes you are correct, we don't quite see it like that. Granted there was vandalism on the side of the soldier but we see both actions as insults, with an unfair verdict in favour of the Mosque.

A verdict just to keep the peace?

Turtle · Aug 30, 2012

Both were certainly insults, but one went a tad further and attacked a specific mosque instead of insulting all of Islam.

A verdict just to keep the peace?

Possibly. But, I think it was a verdict that was consistent with the law rather than with the wishes of a (understandable) mob mentality. The mob wants Muslims, all of them, to pay, and pay dearly, for the poppy burning, because the poppy burning represents all of Islam.

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
Both were certainly insults, but one went a tad further and attacked a specific mosque instead of insulting all of Islam.
Possibly. But, I think it was a verdict that was consistent with the law rather than with the wishes of a (understandable) mob mentality. The mob wants Muslims, all of them, to pay, and pay dearly, for the poppy burning, because the poppy burning represents all of Islam.

LOL, we certainly are not seeing eye to eye today

Where did you get that the 'mob' would be the Brits (or anyone other than Muslim)??

"Sentencing him Judge Jamie Tabor QC, said: 'Not only soldiers but the majority of citizens of this country were offended by seeing the poppies burnt.
They, however, did not react as you did'. "

You are practicing for a reporter job with Reuters aren't you LOL

Turtle · Aug 30, 2012

EnglishLady said:
LOL, we certainly are not seeing eye to eye today

I understand your point of view, tho.

Where did you get that the 'mob' would be the Brits (or anyone other than Muslim)??

From the sentence you posted, actually:

"Sentencing him Judge Jamie Tabor QC, said: 'Not only soldiers but the majority of citizens of this country were offended by seeing the poppies burnt.
They, however, did not react as you did'. "

You are practicing for a reporter job with Reuters aren't you LOL

Not at all. The ""mob" didn't react the same way that this guy did, but the "mob" wants either the poppy burning punishment to be much harsher, or for his punishment to be essentially the same, because they view both incidents as being on par with each other. But they're really not. The "mob" should be completely outraged that someone attacked a mosque in retaliation for the actions of no one at that mosque. But they're not.

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
I understand your point of view, tho.

From the sentence you posted, actually:

"Sentencing him Judge Jamie Tabor QC, said: 'Not only soldiers but the majority of citizens of this country were offended by seeing the poppies burnt.
They, however, did not react as you did'. "

Not at all. The ""mob" didn't react the same way that this guy did, but the "mob" wants either the poppy burning punishment to be much harsher, or for his punishment to be essentially the same, because they view both incidents as being on par with each other. But they're really not. The "mob" should be completely outraged that someone attacked a mosque in retaliation for the actions of no one at that mosque. But they're not.

But I posted that line AFTER you posted yours LOL.

And 'offended' can hardly be called 'mob mentality'

And I am in full agreement that the punishment for the poppy buring and the horrible remarks he made, should indeed have been more.
('British soldiers burn in hell'.
'I don't have any respect for British soldiers, and if they lose a limb or two in Afghanistan then they deserve it.')

50GBP plus 15GBP costs ..... probably pocket change to him. Nothing there to stop him doing it all over again - some deterrent eh

Turtle · Aug 30, 2012

EnglishLady said:
But I posted that line AFTER you posted yours LOL.

True, but I read the same line in the article before that, and it was the impetus for my comment in the first place. It just so happened that you picked that very sentence to post. The "majority of citizens of this country were offended" part of his statement led me to conclude that the use of the word "mob" would be a good euphemism for the "majority of citizens of this country".

And 'offended' can hardly be called 'mob mentality'

No, it can't, but the reaction to being offended can. Below is a good example of that reaction.

And I am in full agreement that the punishment for the poppy buring and the horrible remarks he made, should indeed have been more.

It's a sentiment that the "mob", or, rather, the "majority of citizens of this country" share.

50GBP plus 15GBP costs ..... probably pocket change to him. Nothing there to stop him doing it all over again - some deterrent eh

The true test of free speech is whether you will defend speech you don't agree with. (insert a proper "wink" here, rather than the wimpy wink smiley we have available to us).

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
True, but I read the same line in the article before that, and it was the impetus for my comment in the first place. It just so happened that you picked that very sentence to post. The "majority of citizens of this country were offended" part of his statement led me to conclude that the use of the word "mob" would be a good euphemism for the "majority of citizens of this country".

No, it can't, but the reaction to being offended can. Below is a good example of that reaction.

It's a sentiment that the "mob", or, rather, the "majority of citizens of this country" share.

The true test of free speech is whether you will defend speech you don't agree with. (insert a proper "wink" here, rather than the wimpy wink smiley we have available to us).

I still have to disagree about the 'mob' thing ..... to me at least, a mob is a crowd of angry ppl at the gates as it were.
As far as I am aware this single incident, involving a single person, is the only backlash of the 'poppy' incident.

In all honesty I think the soldier will be applauded by many (not saying that is my stance ... but you never know lol)

Free speech is one thing but Hate speech is another !

'LIKE' for the smilie line LOL

Turtle · Aug 30, 2012

Well, a mob at the gates is an angry mob. There are many different kinds of mobs. The term "mob mentality" refers to group think, usually of the same type of thoughts, usually based on emotion, all in agreement with what they think should happen. Clearly, I should have used a different euphemism, or simply not used one at all.

Ragman · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
(insert a proper "wink" here, rather than the wimpy wink smiley we have available to us).

EnglishLady · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
Well, a mob at the gates is an angry mob. There are many different kinds of mobs. The term "mob mentality" refers to group think, usually of the same type of thoughts, usually based on emotion, all in agreement with what they think should happen. Clearly, I should have used a different euphemism, or simply not used one at all.

Ahh yes I can see this mob mentality .....

Sitting in front of their TV's moaning their socks off saying ....

"when I was a lad .... ",

"If I was that Judge ....... "

"Well that was a bit harsh .... what's on the other channel"

Ragman · Aug 30, 2012

Turtle said:
Well, a mob at the gates is an angry mob. There are many different kinds of mobs. The term "mob mentality" refers to group think, usually of the same type of thoughts, usually based on emotion, all in agreement with what they think should happen. Clearly, I should have used a different euphemism, or simply not used one at all.