International Day of Rage

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... against Israel's efforts to forcibly displace as many as 70,000 of it's own citizens - who happen to be Bedouin - into slums against their wishes under the Prawer Plan, so that the land can be appropriated to build villages for Jewish citizens:

International 'Day of Rage' against the Prawer Plan planned for today

#neveragainisntjustforthechosen​

 

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Live feed via Twitter:

The latest and best tweets on #StopPrawerPlan. Read what people are saying and join the conversation.

 

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Why the Prawer Plan Is Just a Continuation of the Nakba

 

[moose]

Israel is a country of law.
it's a diverse community.
the Bedouin {Gosh, it sound different in English},the Bedouin do not consider themselves so called Palestinian's. yet when you look on the organizations that actively behind this, you can easily see that the well been of part of that community is NOT their main concern.
it is the need to show Israel in bad ways.
i have yet to see a Bedouie that raise an Palestinian flag. well that until provocative anti-Israeli organizations got involved.
it is absorbed to connect between the Palestinian's & the Bedouin peoples. it's loughble, ridiculousness & stupid.
it's show the real goals of peoples that are poised to bully Israel.
i know MANY Bedouin personally, and spent much time among them.{been to their celebrations, wedding, and yes a funeral. i have full respect for the majority of them.
just last winter i spent a whole day in Bee'r-Shevah speaking to one family head.{well, not 'a whole' day more like late lunch...}
while we did not talk much politics{we talked Trucks!}, i can tell for sure, that his family choose to take an active part of the country future, and are promoting the settlement of Bedouins in permanent housing. they choose well.
I can say that the OP link, in FACT is nothing even remotely close to what happen in Israel.
afcourse, this will not be a problem for Israel's haters.
the Bedouin {still don't sound right} have a very complexes way of life, i have yet to see many published articles, & not even one in English, that describe the lifestyle to it's fullyness.
in a nutshell, the Bedouin community's is not the same between different parts of the country.
the El-Azzammah family,will not behave the same as, let's say, El-Arave, or Bir Gien.
there are MANY dozen of Bedouin villages in part's of the country, that choose to enjoy what modern lifestyle have to offer, and choose permanent housing.
it is ridiculousness to blame Israel for providing prosperity to it's citizens.
again, Israel haters do not mind at all flushing the baby with the water, so long as Israel is to blame.
let's make it clear- no other country in the western world will allow it's citizens to behave as the law braking citizens of some parts of the Bedouin community. no other country- USA included.
one of the definitions of modern Antisemitism, is requiring Israel to behave in way's we do not require other country's to behave.
understanding the topography & history of that part of the country, or the complexity of this issue is VITAL for the understanding of the FACT that the 'statue-ques' can not be tolerated, & a solution MUST be presented to this problem & for those peoples.
obviously the law that have passed by the state of Israel is not perfect, but it provide some solutions for most of the problems, and provide some solutions for others.
this law was not one side crafted, it is a result of years of communication with ALL party's involved. there is defiantly not a perfect solution.
one interesting fact is that in Israel there are no privet land. sure, here in America we will shoot trespassers @ will, protect our property, & give our land to our grand-kids if we so wish to. this is OUR constitution right- yet we deny Israel of same opportunity.
here is a description of just ONE experience I had in recent years. i talked to a family member. her boyfriend @ the time was a trainer in one of the Air-force bases near a large Bedouin temporery housing{trasspassers}. when i asked why it is taking so long for the soldier to come back home, she simply told me that they are no longer allowed to drive the road connecting the base to town, and had to drive around some 30Km. the General officer in-charge of that Air-force base prohibited it's personal from traveling this major road, after too many of his troops got hurt. when i told her that i used that piece of road only a year earlier, and did it after night-fall, she simply told me i was nuts!, @ to conciser myself VERY lucky to be alive & well. she told me that only the night before an officer wife got ambushed on her way to work- in broad daylight.
this is just ONE of many challenges Israel is facing in regard to this issue.
i would like to read a better sulotion then the law passed by Israel's gov.
I for one cannot come up with, and have yet to read any other.
again, the 'statue-sque' cannot be sustained. {everyone claim it can be,are living in lalaland}.
this law is the result of the best minds in the business trying to come up with the best solution for a very complexes problem. it took years to be crafted. it is the Law of the land & will be rightlly enforced.
look cerfully behind the 'news madia'- it's goal is to Incitement the ground- not to provide a sulotion.

 

[RLENT]

Moose,

I've selectively quoted and replied to your post (only the points which seem somewhat relevant to me) ... and ditched the irrelevant hasbara ...

Israel is a country of law.

Yes indeedy ... many of them unjust ...

It doesn't really have a consitution though does it ?

it's a diverse community.
the Bedouin {Gosh, it sound different in English},the Bedouin do not consider themselves so called Palestinian's.

It's irrelevant what the Bedouins consider themselves - but what is relevant is that they have common cause with the (other) Palestinians - because both groups have been and are being treated, at least in some respects, in a similar fashion by the "state" of Israel ...

yet when you look on the organizations that actively behind this, you can easily see that the well been of part of that community is NOT their main concern.

Absolutely - it is the Israeli government which is behind the Prawer Plan - and the well-being of the Bedouins is not their main concern ... otherwise they wouldn't repeatedly destroy Bedouin villages ... some more than 50 times ...

(I've got a little video of this I'll share in a bit)

it is the need to show Israel in bad ways.

It is the need to expose the truth of what is actually happening to a public which is largely ignorant of what is actually happening, particularly the public in America ...

i have yet to see a Bedouie that raise an Palestinian flag. well that until provocative anti-Israeli organizations got involved.
it is absorbed to connect between the Palestinian's & the Bedouin peoples. it's loughble, ridiculousness & stupid.

Absurd ?

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... don't draw any parallels ... because of what you might find ... I get it.

Simple fact:

Experiencing a similar injustice at the hands of the "state" of Israel = having common cause ...

I can say that the OP link, in FACT is nothing even remotely close to what happen in Israel.

All one has to do is google Prawer Plan ... research it and draw their own independent conclusions.

Just watch out for the hasbara:

The Prime Minister's Office is planning to form, in collaboration with the National Union of Israeli Students, "covert units" within Israel's seven universities that will engage in online public diplomacy (hasbara).

The students participating in the project, who would post on social media networks such as Facebook and Twitter on Israel’s behalf, will be part of the public diplomacy arm of the PMO, but would not identify themselves as official government representatives.

Prime Minister's Office recruiting students to wage online hasbara battles - National Israel News | Haaretz

Being paid $2000 for posting online propaganda for the home team in one's spare time sure seems like a pretty good deal to me ...

there are MANY dozen of Bedouin villages in part's of the country, that choose to enjoy what modern lifestyle have to offer, and choose permanent housing.

Nothing wrong with that ... providing it doesn't involve forcible displacement against their will.

it is ridiculousness to blame Israel for providing prosperity to it's citizens.

No one is blaming Israel for providing prosperity to it's citizens ... it will however be held accountable for it's acts where they are unjust - particularly for policies which are discriminatory and racist.

let's make it clear- no other country in the western world will allow it's citizens to behave as the law braking citizens of some parts of the Bedouin community. no other country- USA included.

Deflection, diversion, and demonization ... but I'll get to that in more detail in my next post.

one of the definitions of modern Antisemitism, is requiring Israel to behave in way's we do not require other country's to behave.

Yeah ... and one of the definitions of "modern anti-semitism" is also any criticism of the state of Israel ... it's an article of faith for some.

That of course would be conflation, which is a logical fallacy ... not to mention it is a severe abuse of a word which is intended to represent a very real and serious problem ...

understanding the topography & history of that part of the country, or the complexity of this issue is VITAL for the understanding of the FACT that the 'statue-ques' can not be tolerated, & a solution MUST be presented to this problem & for those peoples.

Well your comments above do nothing in the way of providing the reader with any real information with which to make a judgement ...

It's just an assertion that there is some "problem" and a "solution" is required.

It's interesting that where some Bedouin villages are being destroyed and the Bedouin forcibly relocated elsewhere, new villages for Jewish residents will be built ...

obviously the law that have passed by the state of Israel is not perfect, but it provide some solutions for most of the problems, and provide some solutions for others. there is defiantly not a perfect solution. there is defiantly not a perfect solution.there is defiantly not a perfect solution.

In the eyes of some, a "perfect law" would involve the expulsion of anyone not Jewish ... but I digress ...

this law was not one side crafted, it is a result of years of communication with ALL party's involved.

It may be a result of years of communication with all parties, but it's certainty not the result of agreement by all parties involved ...

one interesting fact is that in Israel there are no privet land.

Yeah ... that indeed is a very interesting fact - thanks for bringing to everyone's attention.

I wonder what people here in the US think of that ?

(BTW, your statement that there are no private lands is not correct - there are some private lands)

Israeli land and property laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beyond that, there is also private land - which the Israeli government has stolen - of the former inhabitants of the area, which were displaced and ethnically cleansed.

sure, here in America we will shoot trespassers @ will, protect our property, & give our land to our grand-kids if we so wish to. this is OUR constitution right- yet we deny Israel of same opportunity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the Israel government that is denying the right of Israelis to give their land to their grandkids ...

I mean, if you construct a state which has, for the most part, no private land ownership that certainly ain't my fault.

As to their being a Constitutional Right here in the US to shoot trespassers at will, I think you would hard pressed to find that spelled out anywhere in the Constitution.

i would like to read a better sulotion then the law passed by Israel's gov. I for one cannot come up with, and have yet to read any other. again, the 'statue-sque' cannot be sustained. {everyone claim it can be,are living in lalaland}.

Ahhh ... I think I understand what you are saying: you're trying to say status quo ...

I would agree: the status quo cannot be sustained ... but I doubt we would agree what in particular about the status quo cannot not be maintained.

this law is the result of the best minds in the business trying to come up with the best solution for a very complexes problem. it took years to be crafted. it is the Law of the land & will be rightlly enforced.

Yeah, well there's this:

A United Nations committee has called on for the withdrawal of the draft law that would move 30,000 Bedouin living in the Negev to permanent, existing Bedouin communities. Furthermore, the United Nations human rights chief today urged Israel to reconsider a proposed law that would result in the demolition of up to 35 Bedouin villages, displacing as many as 40,000 members of these communities from their ancestral homes. “If this bill becomes law, it will accelerate the demolition of entire Bedouin communities, forcing them to give up their homes, denying them their rights to land ownership, and decimating their traditional cultural and social life in the name of development,” Ms. Pillay said. According to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, the Law for the Regulation of the Bedouin Settlement in the Negev is discriminatory and would legalize racist practices. Further critics of Prawer Plan include an an independent human rights organization and legal center, Adalah Adalah which works to promote and defend the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, 1.2 million people, or 20% of the population, as well as Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The center describes the Bill - which was approved by the Israeli Knesset on 25 June 2013 with 43 votes for and 40 votes against, as discriminatory. It adds that the Bill calls for the mass expulsion of the Arab Bedouin community in the Naqab (Negev) desert in the south of Israel. If fully implemented, the Prawer-Begin Plan will result in the destruction of 35 "unrecognized"Arab Bedouin villages, the forced displacement of up to 70,000 Arab Bedouin citizens of Israel, and the dispossession of their historical lands in the Naqab. Despite the Arab Bedouin community's complete rejection of the plan and strong disapproval from the international community and human rights groups, the Prawer Plan is happening now. Adalah further elaborates that Prawer-Begin Bill is an unacceptable proposition that entrenches the state’s historic injustice against its Bedouin citizens.


The European Parliament heavily criticized the plan. In January 2012 hundreds of people protested the Prawer Plan, calling for the relocation of about 30,000 Beduins to recognized villages, in front of the Beersheba courthouse. In September 2013 both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel’s ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel.

Bill on the Arrangement of Bedouin Settlement in the Negev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

look cerfully behind the 'news madia'- it's goal is to Incitement the ground- not to provide a sulotion.

The goal is fundamental justice ... something that seems to continuously elude the "state" of Israel for some odd reason ...

A stiff-necked people indeed ...

 

[RLENT]

For those unfamiliar with how the hasbara game is played, here's a quick primer:

How to make the case for Israel and win

To the benefit of the many not-very-bright zionist wannabe apologists who read this blog assiduously, I decided to offer a clear and simple method of arguing the case for Israel. This clear and simple method has been distilled from a life spent listening to and reading Zionist propaganda. It is easy to follow and results are guaranteed or your money back.

So don't hesitate! Take advantage NOW of this revolutionary rhetorical system that will make YOU a great apologist for Israel in less time than it takes to shoot a Palestinian toddler in the eye.

Ready? 1..2..3..GO!​

You need to understand just one principle:

The case for Israel is made of four propositions that should always be presented in the correct escalating order.

We rock

They suck

You suck

Everything sucks​

That's it. Now you know everything that it took me a lifetime to learn. The rest is details; filling in the dotted lines.

You begin by saying how great Israel is. Israel want peace; Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East; the desert blooms; kibutz; Israelis invented antibiotics, the wheel, the E minor scale; thanks to the occupation Palestinians no longer live in caves; Israel liberates Arab women; Israel has the most moral army in the world, etc.

This will win over 50% of your listeners immediately. Don't worry about the factual content. This is about brand identity, not writing a PhD. Do you really think BP is 'beyond petroleum'?

Then you go into the second point: They suck. Here you talk about the legal system of Saudi Arabia, gay rights in Iran, slave trade in the Sudan, Mohammad Atta, the burqa, Palestinians dancing after 9/11, Arafat's facial hair, etc.

There is only one additional principle you need to understand here. It will separate you from the amateurs. You need to know your audience. If you've got a crowd already disposed to racist logic, go for it with everything you have. But if you get a liberal crowd, you need to sugar coat the racism a bit. Focus on women rights, human rights, religious tolerance, "clash of civilizations", terrorism, they teach their children to hate, etc. Deep down your audience WANTS to enjoy racism and feel superior. They just need the proper encouragement so they can keep their sophisticated self-image. Give them what they crave and they'll adore you! But be careful not to 'mix n match,' because it will cost you credibility.

When you're done, there will always be dead-enders insisting that abuse of gays in Iran does not justify ethnic cleansing in Palestine. Take a deep breath, and pull the doomsday weapon: You suck!

You're a Jew-hater, Arab-lover, anti-Semite, you're a pinko, a commie, a dreamer, a naive, a self-hater, you have issues, your mother worked for the Nazis, Prince Bandar buys you cookies, you forgot you were responsible for the holocaust, etc. The more the merrier. By the time you end this barrage, only a handful would be left standing. For mopping them up, you use the ultimate postmodern wisdom: Everything sucks.

War, genocide, racism, oppression are everywhere. From the Roma in Italy to the Native-Americans in the U.S., the weak are victimized. Why pick on Israel? It's the way of the world. Look! Right is only in question between equals in power; the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Ethics, schmethics. Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Eat, drink! Carpe diem! The Palestinians would throw us into the sea if they could. Ha ha!

Trust me, that's as far as words can go. If you followed this method faithfully, you've done your work. You should leave the few who are still unconvinced to the forces of order.

Congratulations!

You are now ready to

apologize for Israel like a pro.​

Posted by Gabriel

Jews sans frontieres: How to make the case for Israel and win

(For anyone that's missing the point, the article is written tongue-in-cheek - nevertheless, it's an accurate representation of most of the hasbarats out there, at least those that I have observed)

(PS. I would just like to mention that in terms of point no. 3 "You Suck" - I have been called the most vile things imaginable - all for simply expressing criticism of, and a disagreement with, the policies and conduct of the "state" of Israel ... so at this point I'm pretty well inoculated ... I got nothing on it)

 

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The New York Times finally covers the Prawer Plan - mostly acting as a mouthpiece for the GOI (Government of Israel) - notice there are no Bedouins/Palestinians interviewed or quoted - just Israelis - all of which are government officials (or government agencies):

Bedouins in Israel Protest Plan to Regulate Settlement

Also note who the author of the article is - Isabel Kershner - who was born in Manchester, England and who is married to an Israeli author, Hirsh Goodman. I would imagine that she may well be an Israeli citizen, although I don't know that for certain. If she is, there ought to be a disclaimer on the article, noting that fact.

Since Ms. Kershner was previously the Senior Editor, Middle East, for The Jerusalem Report magazine and since the dateline for the story was Jerusalem, I imagine she might live in Israel as well.

Finally, note that there does not appear to be a comments section for article.

 

[RLENT]

Well, that certainly didn't take much time or effort:

After the news broke that New York Times Jerusalem bureau chief Ethan Bronner had a son who enlisted in the Israeli army (Extra!,4/10), Times public editor Clark Hoyt noted (2/6/10) that it was problematic for Bronner to continue reporting on “one of the world’s most intense” conflicts while his son took up arms for one side. Hoyt spoke to a former Times Jerusalem bureau chief, David Shipler, who stressed the importance of disclosing this relationship to readers.

Bronner is now close to the end of his tenure in Jerusalem.But two years after that controversy, the New York Times has yet to learn the importance of disclosure. And the concealed relationship again concerns a Times reporter who writes from Jerusalem: This time, it’s correspondent Isabel Kershner.

Kershner has a record of misleading reporting (Extra!, 7/10, 4/11, 1/12) that reflects the New York Times’ bias toward the Israeli government perspective.

But even more ****ing is this: Her husband, Hirsh Goodman, works for the Institute for National Security Studies (INSS) as a senior research fellow and director of the Charles and Andrea Bronfman Program on Information Strategy, tasked with shaping a positive image of Israel in the media. An examination of articles that Kershner has written or contributed to since 2009 reveals that she overwhelmingly relies on the INSS for think tank analysis about events in the region.

The close family tie Kershner has to the leading Israeli think tank, a branch of Tel Aviv University, has never been disclosed to readers of the New York Times. The paper did not return requests for comment.
The INSS is well-connected to both the Israeli government and its military. Many of its associates come from government or military careers; its websiteboasts of the group’s “strong association with the political and military establishment.” In 2010, according to INSS financial documents, the Israeli government gave the institute about $72,000 ...

Rest of the dirt on the NYT's conflicts of interest with regards to biased pro-Israel coverage at the link below:

New Conflict of Interest at NYT Jerusalem Bureau ? FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting

 

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More coverage on the NYT's unethical and incestuous conflict-of-interests with Kershner/Goodman and some additional dirt on the NYT's former Jerusalem Bureau Chief Ethan Bronner's own scandalous, conflict-of-interest ridden conduct:

Another major conflict of interest for the NY Times Jerusalem Bureau | Max Blumenthal

Spouse of NYT correspondent calls for gov't to wage 'war' against int'l threat to for Israel's image

Conflict in Israel? : Columbia Journalism Review

Confirmed: Kershner is an Israeli:

Pillow talk: 'NYT' correspondent's husband says Israel is in a war against critical information

 

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An Auschwitz Survivor On Palestine:

 

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Overview of the "Day of Rage" activities in Palestine, including an interesting tidbit at the end about Israeli police urgently summoning Bedouins and telling them they needed a permit for a 3rd day of protests, Israel being a nation of laws and all ...

Apparently however, no permits are actually required under the law ... oops

Bedouin activists in the Negev were urgently summoned local police stations on Thursday, where they were warned that they must be granted a permit to hold the third “Day of Rage” against the Prawer Plan, scheduled to take place in the Negev/Naqab on Saturday. However, under the law, demonstrations of this sort do not require such permits. Furthermore, the bus companies hired for the purpose of transporting demonstrators from all over the country received similar phone calls from police and were told that anyone assisting the “illegal demonstration” in any way would be considered an accomplice to the offense. Activists are currently trying to work out a solution out with the police, but are warning against the dangerous path the police are taking by repressing voices of dissent.

Thousands protest across Palestine against 'Prawer Plan' to uproot Bedouin

 

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From the "Ya-Almost-Can't-Make-It-Up" department:

"Calling the “Prawer Plan” controversial is, perhaps, an understatement, since it includes not only the destruction of 37 Bedouin villages; but also the forced relocation of indigenous peoples to an area beside a garbage dump."

Israel to forcibly evict 40,000 Bedouins from ancestral land

 

[moose]

Moose,

I've selectively quoted and replied to your post (only the points which seem somewhat relevant to me) ... and ditched the irrelevant hasbara ...
& i would kindly ask you to limit your answers to points well made, - will simply won't make the time to answer such a long lists.
i do not know what Hasbara is. never took a part of it, nor learned about it. this is not what we do here.


Yes indeedy ... many of them unjust ...your view. Justice have nothing to do with the case on hand.

It doesn't really have a consitution though does it ?Good. Israeli laws shell not be challenged by American standard. what works in America might or might not work in Israel. as the ONLY homeland of the Jewish peoples. Israeli law greatly influenced by Jewish traditions.
it dose have a "Chockah" though. {a term dated back more then 3000years}.a short list of 'basic' laws that are the foundations for the laws that governed the country. infact the Israeli democracy is one of the most complexes in western world. the laws are very long to be read. maybe this is why Israel have one of the worlds most layers per capita.
amazingly as it is, one of the core issue of this whole deal, is the absent of specific law to [FONT=&quot]determine[/FONT] the legal statue of land ownership in places that have never been recorded into the "Tabo"{i have no idea how to translate this word- it's the birocracy place in which every building is to be approved & registered}.
as we all know by now, the new law was challenged and made it's way through the Judicial system. and the Judicial court made it clear the new laws Must be written in order to address this vacancy.
with the luck of uo to date law, and until a new one will be passed by the legislator branch, the Judicial court did it's job. in an [FONT=&quot]abstains[/FONT] of a current law, the last active law becomes the law. like MANY cases before. the last law active was the one dated from 'The British mandate'. as a result. again, just like many cases before. the Gov. [FONT=&quot]accountability[/FONT] office. an VERY important part of the Israeli 'Balanced & Checks' system wrote in it's 2004 report the the [FONT=&quot]legislators[/FONT] branch have a commitment to create new laws. this is NOT just another report. the office of "mevaker Hamedina"{agian,sorry,lost in translation} have leagal authority to hold Gov. offichals accountble for not doing what it deamed in it's report. ever since, The Gov. had legal [FONT=&quot]obligation[/FONT] to answer the office concerned. in regard to the issue in place the office of Justice [FONT=&quot]repeatedly[/FONT] asked the accountability office for annual extension, do the complexity of the issue on hand. but @ some point, some had to give. & the current law was crafted passed.


It's irrelevant what the Bedouins consider themselves - but what is relevant is that they have common cause with the (other) Palestinians - because both groups have been and are being treated, at least in some respects, in a similar fashion by the "state" of Israel ...
Again, it is much relevant what the Bedouin cosider themselves, as the mejority of them are, as you mention in the OP Israeli citizen. they choose to be a part of the country, enjoy scocial services, pay taxes, take part of it's goverment, vote, use it's education services and so on.
unlike most of all other citizens of the country, they, the illegal building in question here,and MANY of it's community, do not registered it's property in the "Tabo"!!!, intimidate it's [FONT=&quot]neighbors[/FONT], flat out STEEL other people property, again flat out steel other people property.they made a life out of smuggeling across the border,almost all of them work 'under the table' and do not comply with tax law's. and those ilegal residents are a hotbed for crimes. i can go on and on, and provide AMPLE example of how this outrages activity effected MY personal life while living in the northern Nageve. as i said, unfortunetly i have become an expert in dealing with many Bedouie's, learned to appreciate their traditions, and provided a workplace for some. i lived among them for a long time.
I can tell from personal experience that they infact DO NOT have {as you say} "common cause" with the Palastinians. claiming so just illustrate your ability to understand the sectorial core of Israel's society.
the Palestinians are NOT Israel's citizens.
again, Palestinians are NOT Israel's citizens.
Any attempt to say otherwise is simply a LIE.
look very carefully on the images coming from Israel, every time you see an Palestinian flag been raised- you will know that a lie is been presented to you in order to change your mind.
but the most alarming statement you made is: by the "state" of Israel.
do you even understand the notion of "Homeland for the Jewish peoples"?
do you agree with it?
to you give Israel the right to exists?
do you give Israel the right for self governed?
or do you expect Israel to become just another western democracy?
do you give Israel the right to have a system in place that DO NOT separate religiou from state?
this week Jews around the world are celebrating the "Chanockha" holiday. a strong remainder of what CAN happened when Jews do not controll their own destiny.



Absolutely - it is the Israeli government which is behind the Prawer Plan - and the well-being of the Bedouins is not their main concern ... otherwise they wouldn't repeatedly destroy Bedouin villages ... some more than 50 times ...The well been of the Bedouin's are very much a cocerns to the Israeli Gov., i know that first hand, as i helped administrate some of that help. but when Citizens take the law to their own hand, and repeatedly build homes in places where they are not owned- then what ANY other landowner worldwide will do?- Youbethch'yah!.
here is just ONE of many examples: while plowing a field one night,some 2o years ago, a place we RENTED, from the land administration office, i cam up on an Electric fence that was placed there a few nights earlier. that fence was to keep a herd of goats an sheeps Glazing on a land that do not belong to them. when sun came up there was a temporary building been moved over.
what will ANYone do in this situation?,
50 times or not, repeating a CRIME dose not makes it legal

(I've got a little video of this I'll share in a bit)Good, go ahead, it'll show the enforsment of law as it should be in ANY nation, & the extant of agression by lawbreakers criminals. what will American do when agressive people decide one day to build an illegal housing.


It is the need to expose the truth of what is actually happening to a public which is largely ignorant of what is actually happening, particularly the public in America ...No it's not, it's the need some American have to denay Israel the right to self governed.



Absurd ?

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... don't draw any parallels ... because of what you might find ... I get it.

Simple fact:

Experiencing a similar injustice at the hands of the "state" of Israel = having common cause ...


All one has to do is google Prawer Plan ... research it and draw their own independent conclusions.

Just watch out for the hasbara:



Prime Minister's Office recruiting students to wage online hasbara battles - National Israel News | Haaretz

Being paid $2000 for posting online propaganda for the home team in one's spare time sure seems like a pretty good deal to me ...Thanks for the link, i might take the training.{can sure use it}.


Nothing wrong with that ... providing it doesn't involve forcible displacement against their will.Please DO provide an alternate solution, so far we havne't seen ANY.


No one is blaming Israel for providing prosperity to it's citizens ... it will however be held accountable for it's acts where they are unjust - particularly for policies which are discriminatory and racist.O'h the good O'l R word. [FONT=&quot]Here is a short look into discrimination as it appeared in the issue on hand. Every, but EVERY Israeli citizen must comply with stricken expensive building codes. Discrimination is when a large group of citizen, Bedouin’s for example, for decades now, do not comply with building laws, build whenever they wish, expand into area’s that do not belong to them, and then cry out loud when the law is been enforced. Now that’s racism & Anti-Semitism: when you allow Bedouin to build and deny same allowance from the rest of the country population, like let’s say Jews, Christians or Arab. O’h one more thing, the ONLY other population sector that enjoy such luck of enforcement of the law, when it comes to buildings code, are the Arab citizens. Strangely enough- those are the ones suddenly united with the Bedouins[/FONT]


Deflection, diversion, and demonization ... but I'll get to that in more detail in my next post.


Yeah ... and one of the definitions of "modern anti-semitism" is also any criticism of the state of Israel ... it's an article of faith for some.

That of course would be conflation, which is a logical fallacy ... not to mention it is a severe abuse of a word which is intended to represent a very real and serious problem ...


Well your comments above do nothing in the way of providing the reader with any real information with which to make a judgement ...

It's just an assertion that there is some "problem" and a "solution" is required.

It's interesting that where some Bedouin villages are being destroyed and the Bedouin forcibly relocated elsewhere, new villages for Jewish residents will be built ... It is very interesting indeed, Israel have a large Governmental Office of management called {simpl
e translation-I did not look it up} the office of secretary for settlement in the Negeve and the Galilie. It is a well-founded part of the Israeli Gov. aimed @ providing solution for settlement of it’s citizens on remote parts of the country. Israel have a much danced Metro Area’s that are been built to capacity, while large parts of the country are inhabited, a need to provide new locations and instruction is what this office is all about. It is under the umbrella of this office that the laws have been passed. The Israeli gov. nowadays invests GREATLY in developments on those parts of the country. This is only one rezone why trespassers that have been allowed to break the law for decades now, suddenly face an enforcement of the law. I hope it answer some of your concerns when it comes to my statement that a solution must be presented & the fact that a problem dose exist s




In the eyes of some, a "perfect law" would involve the expulsion of anyone not Jewish ... but I digress ...dissagreement all around.


It may be a result of years of communication with all parties, but it's certainty not the result of agreement by all parties involved ...it is agreed by must parties, please exlude the offensive criminals that took advantage of luck of enforcement for past few decades. party's over.


Yeah ... that indeed is a very interesting fact - thanks for bringing to everyone's attention.

I wonder what people here in the US think of that ?

(BTW, your statement that there are no private lands is not correct - there are some private lands)

Israeli land and property laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beyond that, there is also private land - which the Israeli government has stolen - of the former inhabitants of the area, which were displaced and ethnically cleansed.While i will NOT use the words you just used, i think that you will find it comporting to some degree to know that i do not agree with the Israeli gov. allwoing it's citizens to build their homes in villages that have been destroyed by wars. we will not agree, however on allowing none resident, none citizens the right to eliminate the state of Israel as the only homeland for the jewish peoples.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the Israel government that is denying the right of Israelis to give their land to their grandkids ...I do not know that from personal experience, and have to admit that i have never looked into it. i THINK you are correct. property ownership in Israel is a lawful 'Lease' from the office of Land Managment. i think that it must be renewed after 99 years. interestingly enough, all privet land that was owned by Jews{some exemptions will apply} have been 'nationelaized once it became a state. funny how noone ever talk about the land Jews 'lost' in past wars...

I mean, if you construct a state which has, for the most part, no private land ownership that certainly ain't my fault.not 'fault'- Expectance.

As to their being a Constitutional Right here in the US to shoot trespassers at will, I think you would hard pressed to find that spelled out anywhere in the Constitution.


Ahhh ... I think I understand what you are saying: you're trying to say status quo ...

I would agree: the status quo cannot be sustained ... but I doubt we would agree what in particular about the status quo cannot not be maintained.


Yeah, well there's this:
The UN Human rights council is an anti-Zionist orgenization that represents the worst of Israel's haters. it have been capture by country's that deny Israel's the right to exists. It's have nothing to do with Human rights.It's have a long list of conclusions deemed for the destructions of Israel. please do excuse me when i puke on most everything they ever published in regard to Israel.


Bill on the Arrangement of Bedouin Settlement in the Negev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The goal is fundamental justice ... something that seems to continuously elude the "state" of Israel for some odd reason ...

A stiff-necked people indeed ...

Thanks you for your interpetations of the word Justice, while still denying Israel it's just rights.& thanks, for the name calling.

 

[RLENT]

your view.

You betcha - and I am not alone in it - in fact, some Jews share it - so I figure I am potentially in good company.

Justice have nothing to do with the case on hand.

Justice has everything to do with the case at hand.

I would say the purpose of law, as a general matter, is to ensure equal justice - the idea being that all men are equal before the law, and not subject to the rule of men.

When laws are created that discriminate and favor (or penalize) one group over another, then that purpose is perverted. In this particular case, what the law apparently does is institutionalize racism, and dispossession.

Good. Israeli laws shell not be challenged by American standard. what works in America might or might not work in Israel.

Sorry, but Israeli law will be, and is being, challenged by what are considered to be universal standards of human rights.

If you, as an Israeli, (or anyone else) doesn't like that then:

... tough ...

As long as Israel continues to suck on the teat of Uncle Sam, and accept US foreign aid, I do absolutely have a right to comment on and challenge what Israel does - because my tax dollars are subsidizing it.

And even if Israel foregoes that aid, I will, as an individual member of humanity, still have a right to comment and challenge what Israel does - just as I have a right to comment on and challenge what any nation does.

as the ONLY homeland of the Jewish peoples.

Balderdash ... nearly the entire world is the "homeland" of Jewish peoples, depending on which particular Jewish peoples you are talking about.

I am an American, born and raised in the US - that is my "homeland" - regardless of where my forebears came from, centuries ago.

The interesting thing about your premise is that it is probably true - at least in one sense - in that many of the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine, before the "state" of Israel existed, (and currently) were (are) of Hebrew ancestry ... although they had converted over the years to different faiths - first to Christianity, then to Islam - as the consequence of various conquests.

That is the view of Israeli Tsvi Misinai's Project_on_Palestinians and is supported by genetic (DNA) testing.

Misinai also cites the following three genetic studies as lending credence to his theory. Among the genetic studies referred to by him include recent genetic studies conducted by Professor Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem on the male Y chromosome which revealed that the present day Jews and Palestinians represent modern descendants of a core population that lived in the area now constituting the state of Israel and the Palestinian territories, since prehistoric times.

In 2001, the Human Immunology magazine published a genetic study conducted by Prof. Antonio Arnez-Vilna, a Spanish researcher from the University of Complutense in Madrid, who discovered that the immune systems of the Jews and the Palestinians are extremely close to one another in a way that almost absolutely demonstrates a similar genetic identity.

Furthermore, a 2002 test by Tel Aviv University researchers, determined that only two groups in the world—Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians were genetically susceptible to an inherited deafness syndrome.

This, of course, leads one to the ultimate irony of the "state" of Israel - it is actually displacing, dispossessing, ethnically cleansing, and killing it's own blood brethren.

That this is so, is also probably is absolute heresy to the recent interlopers from Europe and elsewhere, as well as Israelis born in Palestine itself (IOW: the common Israeli "man on the street") - because of the repercussions of what it would actually mean.

Israeli law greatly influenced by Jewish traditions.

I have absolutely no problem with that - since Jewish tradition and ethics have formed the foundation of much of western law - until it gets to the point that "tradition" is being used (or perverted) to deny people their fundamental human rights.

When it hits that point, all bets are off.

it dose have a "Chockah" though. {a term dated back more then 3000 years} .a short list of 'basic' laws that are the foundations for the laws that governed the country.

Whatever the longevity (and it's accurate English spelling) of the term might be, the laws themselves are, to a great extent, a more recent invention. There was no Knesset 3000 years ago.

Israel was supposed to adopt a formal written constitution a few months after its declaration of independence on 14 May 1948. The declaration itself stated that a constitution would be formulated and adopted no later than 1 October 1948. The deadline stated in the declaration of independence proved unrealistic in light of the war between the new state and its Arab neighbors. General elections were arranged on 25 January 1949, in order to elect the Constituent Assembly which would approve the new state's constitution. The Constituent Assembly convened on February 1949. It held several discussions about the constitution without reaching an agreement.

After failing to live up to that committment, things have sort of gone downhill from there, as the "state" has become more and more extremist:

Basic Law: Apartheid in Israel - Haaretz

infact the Israeli democracy is one of the most complexes in western world.

So-called "Israeli democracy" is a perversion of the word (democracy) - because Zionism (a relatively recent phenomena, in it's current form), as practiced by the "state" of Israel, is fundamentally incompatible with a true democracy.

When a foreign (or indigenous) people displaces and ethnically cleanses an indigenous people from their homeland, and then institutes a form of government which they call or refer to as "democracy", it is in fact no democracy at all.

If you want a true version of democracy (and not a total perversion of it) for Israel, then implement a "right of return" into Israeli law, which allows the return of dispossessed ethnically-cleansed Palestinians and their descendants, and give them the vote.

One man, one vote.

Zionism is not the same as Judaism - in fact, I would say that it is antithetical to true Judaism. And I am not alone in this, as the above video by the Auschwitz survivor attests ... among others:

The founder of modern political Zionism - Theodor_Herzl - was a secular Jew - so the movement, at its inception and its heart, had very little to do with religion:

"I consider the Jewish question neither a social nor a religious one, even though it sometimes takes these and other forms. It is a national question, and to solve it we must first of all establish it as an international political problem to be discussed and settled by the civilized nations of the world in council.

In his novel, Herzl wrote about an electoral campaign in the new state. He directed his wrath against the nationalist party, which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine. Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance—and that this was true in politics as well as religion. Herzl wrote:

"Matters of faith were once and for all excluded from public influence. ... Whether anyone sought religious devotion in the synagogue, in the church, in the mosque, in the art museum, or in a philharmonic concert, did not concern society. That was his [own] private affair."

In Altneuland, Herzl outlined his vision for a new Jewish state in the Land of Israel. He summed up his vision of an open society:

"It is founded on the ideas which are a common product of all civilized nations. ... It would be immoral if we would exclude anyone, whatever his origin, his descent, or his religion, from participating in our achievements. For we stand on the shoulders of other civilized peoples. ... What we own we owe to the preparatory work of other peoples. Therefore, we have to repay our debt. There is only one way to do it, the highest tolerance. Our motto must therefore be, now and ever: 'Man, you are my brother.'"

And Zionism, at its core, also had really very little to do with Palestine and the Holy Land initially - since the plan, was to set up a Jewish state in various places, including Argentina and Uganda:

Uganda_Program

 

[RLENT]

the laws are very long to be read. maybe this is why Israel have one of the worlds most layers per capita.

Well, leaving aside the rather gratuitous insertion of hasbara ("maybe this is why Israel have one of the worlds most layers per capita") - which seeks to somehow position Israel in a positive light (that would be the "We Rock" portion of the playlist), basic law at it's core is really pretty simple - it acknowledges, and seeks to protect, the fundamental human rights of individuals ...

If someone has overly complicated it for Israel, it certainly wasn't my doing ...

amazingly as it is, one of the core issue of this whole deal, is the absent of specific law to determine the legal statue of land ownership in places that have never been recorded into the "Tabo"{i have no idea how to translate this word- it's the birocracy place in which every building is to be approved & registered}.

FYI: it's bureaucracy ... and the thing you refer to as "Tabo" is "tabu" or "tapu" in English:

Tapu (Ottoman law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the absence of specific law, it is incumbent on the powers that be to seek a just resolution of conflicts and disputes ... something that Israel has certainly not done.

The matter of land ownership is a complex one, but if one wishes to study how the "game" was played originally by the British, and eventually by the Zionists - to the end of dispossessing an indigenous people of their land - the following study, linked below the following quote, is a good, if somewhat long, read:

In tracing more than a century of Jewish-Israeli land acquisitions, this study documents the methodical process underlying the Zionist conquest of Palestine and the dispossession and displacement of its indigenous Arab inhabitants. We examine this process with reference to relevant international treaties and agreements. We show that Israel’s discriminatory policies towards Palestinians constituted violations of key United Nations resolutions adopted by the international community in the General Assembly and the Security Council over the past several decades.

It is neither simple nor straightforward to demonstrate that a system of law was devised to legalise the transfer of lands and property from one people to another. For some readers, it may be disturbing to realise that deliberate discrimination could be embedded in and masked by seemingly ‘neutral’ categories within a 'legal' system - which, by definition, ought to denote impartiality and equal protection.

The events and laws under review here are complicated by the fact that a succession of different governments once wielded authority over the areas that later became Israel and the Occupied Territories. From Ottoman, through British and Jordanian (the latter only in the West Bank), to Israeli law — each ruling power installed its own legal framework in pursuit of its own particular interests.

As we shall see in the course of this study, legally sanctioned discrimination against Palestinians – as citizens of the State of Israel and as residents of the Occupied Territories – is not immediately discernible in the language of the laws, but exists nevertheless. The state of affairs favouring Jewish-Zionist goals in Palestine took shape early on during the British Mandate period. The British authorities took great pains to amend Ottoman law in such a way as to facilitate the Jewish purchase and colonisation of lands. This evolving body of law was the precursor of the legal system that was adopted by Israel after the creation of the 'Jewish State' in 1948 and that was imposed in the Occupied Territories after their capture in 1967.

To appreciate how Israeli law operates in depriving Palestinians of their lands and property and transferring these to Jewish ownership and control, we need to expose the true nature of certain implicit understandings and definitions in that law.

What on the surface appear to be 'neutral' legal terms and categories actually operate to the great disadvantage of the Palestinians. This is particularly so in the case of those Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship. Although there are parallels between their legal situation and that of their counterparts in the Occupied Territories, the discrimination against the latter is less concealed because it is incorporated in Israeli Military Law.

The full study (244 pages, 1.8 megabyte PDF) that the above quote is taken from can be downloaded at the following link:

Ruling Palestine

In 1945, of the 26.4 million dunams (26,400 km²) of land in Mandate Palestine, 12.8 million was owned by Arabs, 1.5 million by Jews, 1.5 million was public land and 10.6 million constituted the desertic Beersheba district (Negev). Of the 9.2 million dunams of land that was arable, 7.8 million dunams was owned by Arabs, 1.2 million by Jews and 0.2 million was public land.

By 1949, some 700,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled from their lands and villages. Israel was now in control of some 20.5 million dunams (approx. 20,500 km²) or 78% of lands in what had been Mandate Palestine: 8% (approx. 1,650 km²) were privately controlled by Jews, 6% (approx. 1,300 km²) by Arabs, with the remaining 86% being public land.

Land laws were passed to legalize changes to land ownership

IOW: institutionalized and "state"-sanctioned land theft, following the displacement, ethnic cleansing, and expulsion of a substantial portion of the indigenous population by "Israeli" terrorist organizations.

as we all know by now, the new law was challenged and made it's way through the Judicial system. and the Judicial court made it clear the new laws Must be written in order to address this vacancy.

Yeah ... and we have over 65 years of historical precedent to inform us as to how the "state" of Israel has dealt with the matter of land ownership of the indigenous peoples - repeated acts of theft and dispossession.

No reason to think that this time would be any different.

with the luck of uo to date law, and until a new one will be passed by the legislator branch, the Judicial court did it's job. in an abstains of a current law, the last active law becomes the law. like MANY cases before. the last law active was the one dated from 'The British mandate'. as a result.

Covered by the PDF of study report from Badil as to how the "state" of Israel has gamed the system and used existing law as a pretext for land theft and dispossession.

again, just like many cases before. the Gov. accountability office. an VERY important part of the Israeli 'Balanced & Checks' system wrote in it's 2004 report the the legislators branch have a commitment to create new laws. this is NOT just another report. the office of "mevaker Hamedina"{agian,sorry,lost in translation}

State Comptroller (which also functions as an Omsbudsman):

State Comptroller of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

have leagal authority to hold Gov. offichals accountble for not doing what it deamed in it's report. ever since, The Gov. had legal obligation to answer the office concerned. in regard to the issue in place the office of Justice repeatedly asked the accountability office for annual extension, do the complexity of the issue on hand. but @ some point, some had to give. & the current law was crafted passed.

Institutionalization of injustice does not eliminate injustice, it just institutionalizes it.

Again, it is much relevant what the Bedouin cosider themselves, as the mejority of them are, as you mention in the OP Israeli citizen. they choose to be a part of the country, enjoy scocial services, pay taxes, take part of it's goverment, vote, use it's education services and so on.

Well, as we see below, near the end of this reply, that has little bearing on whether they agree with the actions of the "state".

You're attempting to sanitize both historical and present reality through the use of conflation (a logical fallacy) - by equating two things as being the same, when they, factually, are not - and you relying on the general ignorance of the situation on the part of the Amercan public to succeed.

So as a practical matter, it's just more hasbara.

unlike most of all other citizens of the country, they, the illegal building in question here,and MANY of it's community, do not registered it's property in the "Tabo"!!!, intimidate it's neighbors, flat out STEEL other people property, again flat out steel other people property.they made a life out of smuggeling across the border,almost all of them work 'under the table' and do not comply with tax law's. and those ilegal residents are a hotbed for crimes. i can go on and on, and provide AMPLE example of how this outrages activity effected MY personal life while living in the northern Nageve.

Yeah ... this would be the "They Suck" portion of the program ... nice try, but fail.

as i said, unfortunetly i have become an expert in dealing with many Bedouie's, learned to appreciate their traditions, and provided a workplace for some. i lived among them for a long time.

You actually lived in a Bedouin village ?

Which one and with which tribe ?

I can tell from personal experience that they infact DO NOT have {as you say} "common cause" with the Palastinians. claiming so just illustrate your ability to understand the sectorial core of Israel's society.

As to your first point: The protests of the Bedouins would seem to indicate otherwise.

In fact, you might ask UAL Ta’al MKs Ahmed Tibi and Taleb Abu Arar (himself a Bedouin) whether they see a common cause ... since both of them took part in demonstrations against the Prawer Plan:

"What would you do if you were going to be expelled from your homes? Once people were expelled in the 1948 Nakba, and some will be removed again.... When we say the word 'intifada', it means an uprising. It is not the privilege of Arabs in the south to rise up, it is their responsibility. It is a human right to defend your home," Tibi said in June.

Abu Arar said in June that the Prawer Plan is "a declaration of war on the residents of the south, and I am one of them....This law will not be respected. We will step on this law with our feet.... This is how the government is inviting an intifada in the heart of the Negev. The Beduin will rise up, and I warn the government of Israel."

Abu Arar was called by the police for clarifications following the rioting, but was not officially investigated.

Other MKs who were quoted include Afo Agbaria of Hadash, who said "I am in favor of a new intifada, because [the government] is starting a new Nakba."

Tibi said in response that it is his "democratic right and moral responsibility to participate in demonstrations and make my voice heard against the displacement plan called Prawer and I will continue to demonstrate against it."

In reality, the simple fact that there exists a political party in Israel, which is called the United_Arab_List Ta'al, would, itself, seem to indicate a common cause ...

The party supports the creation of a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital; and equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel.
Its constituency consists mostly of religious or nationalist Israeli Arabs, and enjoys particular popularity among the Bedouin – in the 2009 elections, 80% of residents of Bedouin communities voted for the party.

But I can totally understand why the very idea of such a thing seems incredibility dangerous thing to you.

After all, does not one reap what they have sown ?

As to your second point: Yes - my claim does indicate my ability to understand.

And your attempt to say that it doesn't only indicates your unwillingness and refusal to understand.

 

[RLENT]

the Palestinians are NOT Israel's citizens. again, Palestinians are NOT Israel's citizens.

You can repeat it as many times as you would like - but doing so does not change the actuality of the matter. The actual fact of the matter is:

Some (Palestinians) are (citizens of Israel), some are not.

Your position is problematic from two standpoints:

1. If one looks to what constitutes an "Arab Israeli" one finds the following:

Arab citizens of Israel are non-Jewish Israeli citizens, the majority of whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Palestinian. ... The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Additionally, one finds the following:

The Palestinian people, also referred to as Palestinians, are the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region.

Despite various wars and exoduses, roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in historic Palestine, the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Israel.

In this combined area, as of 2004, Palestinians constituted 49% of all inhabitants,[26] encompassing the entire population of the Gaza Strip (1.6 million), the majority of the population of the West Bank (approximately 2.3 million versus close to 500,000 Jewish Israeli citizens which includes about 200,000 in East Jerusalem), and 16.5% of the population of Israel proper as Arab citizens of Israel.

Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IOW: 16.5% percent of the population of Israel is Palestinian.

Haneen_Zoabi is an elected member of the Israeli Knesset - and she most certainly self-identifies herself as a Palestinian - one which holds Israeli citizenship.

So is MK Ahmad_Tibi - who describes himself as a "Palestinian Patriot" ...

and in addition to point 1 above:

2. If you say that those in the Occupied Territories are not Israel's citizens, then you as a matter of course, admit that those who the "state" of Israel is exercising control over as an occupying power are being denied the full rights of citizens (of the "state" of Israel) - including the right to vote for and elect those that exercise an extreme amount of control and influence over their lives.

And don't even bring up voting for the PA ... that's largely a worthless sop for PR purposes to maintain an illusion - in order to defend Israel in terms of world public opinion ... an illusion which is fading fast ...

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, but you aren't entitled to your own "facts" ...

Any attempt to say otherwise is simply a LIE.

I think that you would find that a great many of the Arab (Palestinian) citizens of Israel, would disagree with you.

Predictably, the Israeli reaction to things like Palestinian self-identification by Israeli Arabs will be to continue to attempt to further suppress and criminalize such things and other forms of dissent.

A very good example of this is mentioned in Lia Tarachansky's film "On The Side Of The Road" (the trailer for which is linked in another thread by that name) - where the Knesset acted to try criminalize the act of people publicly mourning the Nakba ...

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I find the idea of criminalizing public mourning of such an event to be utterly insane and totally freakish. It's absolutely whacko.

The functional US equivalent would be if Congress outlawed any public mourning of the slaughter of Native Americans at Wounded_Knee.

Sorry, but Israel doesn't get a special exemption for its current conduct for some event - however tragic and it was utterly tragic - that happened to a portion of the Jewish people roughly 70 years ago.

Israel is largely a police-state at this point - one of it's own making I might add - and it is hurtling down the road to full-blown fascism like an high-speed express train:

Israel seeks to silence dissent | Ben White | Comment is free | theguardian.com

The above is a rather interesting read (from several years ago) illustrating to what extent the Israeli TPTB are willing to go target dissenters ... even if that dissent is protected by law.

look very carefully on the images coming from Israel, every time you see an Palestinian flag been raised - you will know that a lie is been presented to you in order to change your mind.

Sorry, but I don't think so ... but I do think you are functionally pushing lies on here ...

Whether that's happening knowingly and intentionally is another matter altogether ... could just be the result of (unknowing) indoctrination into untruths.

but the most alarming statement you made is: by the "state" of Israel. do you even understand the notion of "Homeland for the Jewish peoples"?

Yes, I do certainly understand it.

Unfortunately, from where I sit, it seems to me that Israel, as that "homeland", is, and will be, more of a cause for an increase in worldwide anti-semitism (by virtue of Israel's own conduct - which will be conflated by some as the conduct of all Jews) and so will actually endanger the Jewish people worldwide.

Of course, if Israel's motivation and purpose is to gather the entirety of the Jewish people from all over the world (and I believe that that is Israel's motivation and purpose) then a worldwide rise in anti-semitism would serve that purpose.

do you agree with it?

If it means condoning the "state" of Israel as it came into being and as it currently exists, then: No, I do not.

to you give Israel the right to exists?

No ... and no such "right to exist" exists, or is acknowledged, as a matter of international law:

The idea of a "right to exist" can largely be traced to back to an essay penned by the nineteenth century French philosopher Ernest Renan.

Right to exist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is earlier mentioned by our own Tom Paine:

Thomas Paine used the phrase "right to exist" to refer to forms of government, arguing that representative government has a right to exist, but that hereditary government does not.

The key word in that passage is representative ...

According to Renan's "What is a Nation?" (1882), "So long as this moral consciousness (called a nation) gives proof of its strength by the sacrifices which demand the abdication of the individual to the advantage of the community, it is legitimate and has the right to exist. If doubts arise regarding its frontiers, consult the populations in the areas under dispute." Existence is not a historical right, but "a daily plebiscite, just as an individual's existence is a perpetual affirmation of life," Renan said.

IOW: the legitimacy ultimately rests with those who live in the area where the nation is to exist, and the right's existence is subject to consent of those who live or lived there. Filtering the population through ethnic cleansing is a disqualifier in my book.

Further, any possible claim that Israel might have had to that supposed "right to exist", was forfeit as a consequence of the violent, illegal actions of the founders of the "state" of Israel, and are further solidified by the subsequent actions of the "state of Israel" itself. The only way for Israel to obtain the "right to exist" is for the Palestinians to grant it.

Let me repeat that for you - just so there is no misunderstanding:

The only way for Israel to obtain the "right to exist" is for the Palestinians to grant it:

According to the linguist Noam Chomsky, the term "right to exist" is unique to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict: "No state has a right to exist, and no one demands such a right ... In an effort to prevent negotiations and a diplomatic settlement, the U.S. and Israel insisted on raising the barrier to something that nobody's going to accept ... [Palestinians are] not going to accept...the legitimacy of their dispossession."

John V. Whitbeck argued that Israel's insistence on a right to exist forces Palestinians to provide a moral justification for their own suffering.

Journalist and author Alan Hart has argued that there is no legitimacy to Israel’s claim to a “right to exist” in International law. He reasons that Israel therefore insists the Palestinians must first recognise its 'right to exist' on Palestinian territory because according to International law, neither the British Balfour declaration, nor the vitiated UN resolution of 1947 granted that legitimacy and only the dispossessed Palestinians can confer it upon Israel: "Israel has no right to exist unless it was recognized and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state."

Given the above, you might want to give your fellow countrymen a headsup to be on their best behavior, lest they, by their own actions and conduct, deprive themselves of the "right to exist" ... for the remainder of eternity.

do you give Israel the right for self governed?

I acknowledge the right of people to self-determination.

What I don't allow them is the right to ethnically cleanse and dispossess a people - the indigenous inhabitants of a land - in order to construct a "state" with demographics to their liking.

In case you have forgotten, the latter (above) is exactly what the Nazi's attempted to do.

That is a fact that you and some of your Israeli brethren seem to have a very hard time grasping for some reason. See:

Stockholm syndrome ... or something ...

or do you expect Israel to become just another western democracy?

What I hope for, is for the land that you call Israel and others call Palestine and still others call the Holy Land, to become a nation comprised of those who wish to live there - including all dispossessed, ethnically-cleansed Palestinians and their descendants (right of return)

What it might be called or named is open to discussion, and although I'm not a big fan of hyphenated names, Israel-Palestine or Palestine-Israel might just work.

A nation which respects and upholds the rights of all it's people - no matter what their race, ethnicity, or religion. Such a thing would truly be "a light unto the nations of the world" ...

Israel is not currently that state - by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it is actually the antithesis of it ... and is moving further away from the ideal with each passing day ...

do you give Israel the right to have a system in place that DO NOT separate religion from state?

I think that history - and the present - tells us that having religion be a part of the state can be very problematic.

But it would be up to all citizens of a state which was built or formed as I have outlined above. That would necessarily include consulting all the dispossessed and ethnically cleansed - aka the Palestinians (and their descendants) - who wish to return.

this week Jews around the world are celebrating the "Chanockha" holiday. a strong remainder of what CAN happened when Jews do not controll their own destiny.

The only reminder you should really need is to just look across the Green Line ... into the Occupied Territories at the Bantustans that you and your fellow countrymen have created and are continuing to create ...

When you can truly empathize enough with what you find there, and ensure that their rights are respected as you expect your rights to be, the need for such reminders may well cease ...

"Never again" isn't only for the "Chosen" ... it's for everyone ...

 

[RLENT]

BTW, I am rather curious - if Israel is really "all that" in your mind, then why are you here in the US and not there ?

 

[RLENT]

The well been of the Bedouin's are very much a cocerns to the Israeli Gov.,

BS ... if that were truly the case the Prawer Plan wouldn't be being condemned by both the Bedouin and International communities, and the Israeli government would have truly worked to establish a mutually agreeable solution.

Apparently, what the Israeli government is doing is a thoroughly monumental job of screwing it up ... a some evidenced by a Bedouin member of the Knesset and representative of the Bedouin people, claiming that the Prawer Plan invites an intifada in the heart of the Negev ...

Me being forcibly relocated next to a garbage dump against my will sure ain't my idea of someone being "concerned" about my "well being" ...

i know that first hand, as i helped administrate some of that help.

Uh-huh ... well, I've seen all manner of things that were called "help" by those delivering it, when it actually wasn't ....

So - what exactly did you do ?

but when Citizens take the law to their own hand, and repeatedly build homes in places where they are not owned- then what ANY other landowner worldwide will do?

Coming from a citizen of a nation who has repeatedly allowed it's citizens to violate international law by building homes on land they don't own, the above is the absolute height of hilarity.

Do Israelis have the right to build and settle in the Occupied Territories ... East Jerusalem ?

Kerry: US considers Israeli settlements to be 'illegitimate' | JPost | Israel News

EU condemns new Israel settlement as illegal and potential obstacle to peace | Fox News

EU's Ashton: Israeli Settlements are Illegal Under International Law

Steadfast opposition to Israel's illegal settlements - The Malta Independent

Unless you are willing to condemn illegal Israeli settlements, you are being a complete and total hypocrite.

here is just ONE of many examples: while plowing a field one night,some 2o years ago, a place we RENTED, from the land administration office, i cam up on an Electric fence that was placed there a few nights earlier. that fence was to keep a herd of goats an sheeps Glazing on a land that do not belong to them. when sun came up there was a temporary building been moved over.

That sorta looks like a "We Rock" (by complying with the law) "They Suck" (by supposedly violating it) combo ...

Interesting tactic ... I'm not particularly impressed though.

what will ANYone do in this situation?,

What anyone would do is irrelevant - the only relevant question is:

What did you do ?

50 times or not, repeating a CRIME dose not makes it legal

Yeah ... that's something you and your Israeli brethren would do very well to keep in mind.

Say - do you know what "state" has been condemned the most times out of all nations by the United Nations Security Council for violations of U.N. Security Council resolutions, the U.N. Charter, the Geneva Conventions, international terrorism, or other violations of international law ?

Hint: It ain't Iran ...

Rogue State: Israeli Violations of U.N. Security Council Resolutions | Foreign Policy Journal

That's actually quite a mark of distinction.

 

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Bedouin Arabs protest forced displacement plan in Negev, southern Israel

A visit by several Israeli legislators to the Negev desert in southern Israel Sunday was met by protests organized by local residents opposed to the Israeli plan to forcibly remove them from their ancestral land. That plan has been dubbed the 'Prawer Plan', and would involve the forced displacement of thousands of Palestinian Bedouins who have lived for hundreds of years in the Negev desert, in the southern part of what is now Israel.

The protest on Sunday followed outbursts last week in the Israeli Knesset (Parliament) by several Arab Members of the Knesset. MK Ahmed Tibi said, “"You’ve gone too far. This law is a mark of Cain on the forehead of the Knesset, and the shame is on the forehead of every one of you who supports this bill. What would you do if there was a plan to drive you out of your homes? Any reasonable person cries out, protests, expresses outrage, he is angry. He responds to the aggression.”


During Sunday's protest, four protesters were wounded by Israeli police forces who attacked the non-violent demonstration, and two were abducted. The abductees were identified as an employee of the al-Mezan Center for Human Rights, who was on the scene as a human rights observer, and a resident of the Bedouin village of Rafat, identified as Yunis Moussa Abu Abed.


The Knesset Committee whose visit prompted the protest was formed to implement the Prawer Plan for mass displacement of the Palestinian Bedouins from their ancestral homes. While Israeli lawmakers argued that the forced displacement was necessary, and that the Bedouins would be moved into reservations created by the Israeli government, the Bedouin's representatives pointed out that similar reservations set up by the Israeli government in the past have been neglected and lacking in infrastructure and government support.


One such Bedouin reservation was established by the Israeli government adjacent to the Jerusalem city dump, and thousands of Bedouins who were forced to move there have complained of a complete lack of facilities or infrastructure, and total neglect by the Israeli government. At the same time, the land of the displaced Bedouin families has been taken over by the Israeli government for the development of an airforce training site and other government facilities.


40,000 Palestinian Bedouins are scheduled to be forcibly displaced from their land by the Prawer Plan, which has been approved by the Israeli Knesset and only awaits implementation.

Bedouin Arabs protest forced displacement plan in Negev, southern Israel - International Middle East Media Center

 

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Good, go ahead, it'll show the enforsment of law as it should be in ANY nation, & the extant of agression by lawbreakers criminals.

Complete BS ...

How many Americans do you think are aware of the fact that if you're Jewish in Israel and certain areas of Occupied Territories, it's a breeze to get permits to build ... and if you're anything other than Jewish it's next to impossible to get permits ...

How many Americans do you think are aware of the fact the Israel exercises both military and administrative control in Area C - which comprises over 60% of the West Bank - effectively denying the Palestinian people the right to both their self defense and self governance:

Palestinian PM vows to prevent Israeli demolition orders

Ramallah, June 24 (Xinhua-ANI): Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Sunday pledged to prevent Israel from demolishing a village in the West Bank.

"We will stand by our families in Susiya village to stop the final decision to remove it by all means," Fayyad told reporters in Hebron city before he headed to visit the nearby village.

Last week, the Israeli authorities delivered demolition orders against almost all the village's 50 makeshift homes, a shelter for 350 people.

The village is located in Area C, where Israel has security and administrative control, close to the Green Line, which marks Israel's pre-1967 war borders.
Israel says the structures were built without license, while the residents, mainly Bedouins, say Israel refuses to grant them building permits.

Palestinian PM vows to prevent Israeli demolition orders

what will American do when agressive people decide one day to build an illegal housing.

Aggressive people ?

Are you serious ?

As a citizen of a nation which has probably conducted more unprovoked acts of war against other sovereign nations than any other in living memory, you trying to sell that one is a real hoot buddy.

The more relevant question would be:

What would Americans do when a foreign occupying power arrives in America, claims that it has a (exclusive ?) right to the land as ordained by God, and then seeks to displace the existing population and deprive them of their property ?

They would probably do exactly what the Native Americans did here in the US, when the white man arrived and did exactly that: fight back and defend their rights ...

Now, repeat after me:

Apartheid ...

Bantustan ...

Dispossession ...

Ethnic cleansing ...

I haven't been able to find the video of large Caterpillar wheel loader destroying the village ... I'll keep looking though ... because I know you want me to share it with everyone here so they can see all those "aggressive people" ... living out in the middle of nowhere in the desert, away from everyone else ... in the meantime, here's a little video of how Israel is actually treating the Bedouin (and other Palestinians), who they care so very, very much about ... in the Bedouin's (and Palestinians) own words ...

Only a complete and utter fool could possibly believe the Bedouin (which are actually Palestinian) and Palestinians (which aren't Israeli citizens) don't have common cause ...

Info on both of the villages mentioned in the above video - including the actions of the "state" of Israel against these "aggressive" people:

Al-Araqeeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Susya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Quick ... someone call Hasbara Central stat ... those Wiki entries cannot be allowed to stand !)