If this is gong to be a Christian nation...

[layoutshooter]

"If your neighbor falls down, offer him a helping hand to get up."


A hand up, NOT a hand out. There are FAR too many who ARE just lazy and sucking off the public teat. I would, by far, prefer to HIRE my neighbor, than hand out money.

There also should, in the case of able bodied people. be NO free welfare. Able bodied people should be REQUIRED to EARN the assistance. Also, staying on welfare instead of taking lower paid jobs should be illegal. IF there is legitimate work available, they should do that work. Then work their way up, like most do.

We spend somewhere around $500 BILLION dollars, ALL BORROWED, each year, fighting the "War on Poverty". We are NOT winning and that is a LOT of BORROWED money to lose that war. We are doing about as well with the war on poverty as we are on the "War on Drugs".

It is obvious that the government "solution" has failed and will continue to fail. It is time government got out of the "charity" business.

 

[Humble2drive]

I do get it, and understand what you guys are saying. I do also have issues with the free loaders that live off the dole. However, with that said, I also take issue with the blanket statements lumping all persons that ask for some help to get back on their feet so they can do what it takes to get on being productive members of society, as Lazy.

Most do not want to be in that situation and just want a helping hand up.

If your neighbor falls down, offer him a helping hand to get up. (unknown author)

Agreed but I believe that the "blanket statements" you are referring to come mostly from the far right wacko crowd. The general electorate feels differently because they have voted time and again to keep the entitlements.
In my opinion, most Americans have a strong desire to help those in need and will give what they can. The mistake was letting the Government take our money and attempt to do the helping for us.

 

[layoutshooter]

Agreed but I believe that the "blanket statements" you are referring to come mostly from the far right wacko crowd. The general electorate feels differently because they have voted time and again to keep the entitlements.
In my opinion, most Americans have a strong desire to help those in need and will give what they can. The mistake was letting the Government take our money and attempt to do the helping for us.

What I don't understand is the idea that "welfare" programs are "entitlements. What makes people "entitled" to ANYTHING that they did not EARN?

I too believe that we SHOULD help, by hiring, not handing out. I would do MUCH more hiring than I do, if it were not for the massive tax burden. Right now I hire a lawn care/snow removal service. I hired a company to put in new windows. I am having more work done, on my house, all of which requires hiring, providing work, for people. Leave me with MORE of what I earn and I could expand THAT program, WHICH DOES WORK, since everyone I hire is WORKING and EARNING. A MUCH better solution than handouts.

 

[Ragman]

What I don't understand is the idea that "welfare" programs are "entitlements. What makes people "entitled" to ANYTHING that they did not EARN?

Agreed. General Assistance (welfare is such an ugly term) should be just that - Assistance, But we must be willing to help as a society. It is my observation, we are not.

A single father of 3 ( the mother passed away at age 34 ) loses his job, asks for a little help, and he is called LAZY! HOW DARE WE! WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE!!!!

Sorry for raising my voice.

Rant over.

 

[layoutshooter]

Agreed. General Assistance (welfare is such an ugly term) should be just that - Assistance, But we must be willing to help as a society. It is my observation, we are not.

A single father of 3 ( the mother passed away at age 34 ) loses his job, asks for a little help, and he is called LAZY! HOW DARE WE! WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE!!!!

Sorry for raising my voice.

Rant over.

Except there is work out there and there would be FAR more if ONLY the government quit taking money from those of us working, therefor preventing us from HIRING more people.

GOVERNMENT is the CAUSE of the problem, it can never be the solution. Get government OUT of the way, get it OUT of the "assistance" business and things would rapidly improve.

Government WANTS large segments of the population poor, dependent people are easy to control.

Not helping? $500 BILLION a year is a LOT of help. I contend that it is the "help" that is the problem.

I do more than the government, I HIRE!

 

[Ragman]

Except there is work out there and there would be FAR more if ONLY the government quit taking money from those of us working, therefor preventing us from HIRING more people.

GOVERNMENT is the CAUSE of the problem, it can never be the solution. Get government OUT of the way, get it OUT of the "assistance" business and things would rapidly improve.

Government WANTS large segments of the population poor, dependent people are easy to control.

Your answer touches on the cause, but not the effect.

Why was this man called Lazy? He was just asking for some help, A helping hand.

 

[cheri1122]

I think you are selling the general public short. Most are quite ok with helping people out. What they have a problem with is the widespread abuse that goes on. And the media on all fronts takes advantage of it. SNAP cards used in strip joints, section 8 housing, Obamaphones, and the long list goes on. That is what the general public sees even though it doesn't represent all of them.
There is no doubt that resentment builds when people are working and giving on their behalf and then are snubbed.
That general public gives more than any other country when it comes to welfare and charity.
Some would make the argument that people only do it for a tax deduction. Some do, but the ones I see throwing money in the Salvation Army tin, helping the vets, or people bringing food for the food bank are not doing it for a tax deduction.

Of course they're not tossing money into the red kettle for a tax writeoff - if they wanted it, they'd need a receipt. And it's the ones who have the receipts that make me angry, because that isn't charity, it's quid pro quo.
You mention the scams perpetrated against welfare, and no one denies that it happens, that's human nature: some people are liars and cheats. Those people don't represent the majority, though, [except on conservative sites], and to counter, how many billions of dollars are fraudulently obtained by service providers? Check out the statistics, see who is really scamming the system, and where's the outrage over that? Does the company that bills Medicare for millions of claims it invented get any "gotcha!" publicity?
The hypocrisy is stunning.
And the elephant in the room is that so many people need help, just to feed the kids [the ones they had before their decent paying job vanished], because the US continues to reward the wrong people.
Please don't blame it on the corporate tax rate, either: it was a helluva lot higher decades ago, when people could support themselves and their families, educate their kids, and save for retirement, just by being willing to work hard.
The blame is complex, and the solutions must be too - but if some way isn't found to eradicate the reality of being "working poor", we will revert to feudalism.

 

[LDB]

It's all the fault of corporations and CEO's. And of course anyone making contributions and asking for a receipt is a total hypocrite, automatically guilty of not caring or actually giving anything. They'd never ask for receipts or take legitimate tax deductions if they were genuine. They'd just give. Less of course since without the tax deduction they couldn't afford to give as much.

 

[Humble2drive]

That statement didn't apply until the past few decades, but if you believe it isn't true now, you might need to broaden your sources of information.

Are you implying that you have broader sources of information? Please educate me to the sources you use because your post seems to be entirely your opinion.
Your statement:

People who work for low pay are condemned to poverty by forces beyond their control . . .

Is your opinion. There is no reliable "broad source" that will agree that people have no control over living in poverty. There are many people who fall into trouble at times and need help but they are not the subject of my posts.

The shift in corporate culture from satisfying stakeholders to shareholders meant the jobs that remain pay the absolute minimum possible, and are often part time, to maximize profit

Corporations have always tried to attract investors and controlling labor costs has been an important tool for many years. This is nothing new as it goes back to the days of Andrew Carnegie. Corporations are not allowed to pay the absolute minimum these days because of minimum wage laws.

If you are referring to the minimum wage as the absolute minimum then your statement holds true for some companies and untrue for other companies.
In fact the trend is being set by many successful companies that paying a voluntary higher wage leads to increased productivity and profitability.

. . . companies like QuikTrip, the grocery-store chain Trader Joe's, and Costco Wholesale are proving that the decision to offer low wages is a choice, not an economic necessity. All three are low-cost retailers, a sector that is traditionally known for relying on part-time, low-paid employees. Yet these companies have all found that the act of valuing workers can pay off in the form of increased sales and productivity.
Lost the source

A few other companies with entry level pay above minimum wage:

Gap $10.00 per hour
In-n-out burger $10.50 per hour
Patagonia $10.00 per hour
Zappos $16.00 per hour
Ben and Jerry's $15.97 per hour
Boloco $9 to $11 per hour

All of the wages above were implemented voluntarily as they should be.
Yes, the part time jobs dilemma has been around forever but has increased due to the fear of Obamacare.

And yes, it used to be the entry level job was followed by better jobs, but those jobs don't exist any more . . .

Wow! Talk about negative thinking.Of course they still exist and they
are all around us. Here is one within walking distance from my house:

Lowes:
Entry level customer service associate $10.33 per hour
Department manager $16.10 per hour
Assistant store manager $53,320.00 per year
Store Manager $86,489.00 per year

I have a personal acquaintance who started flipping burgers at McDs and is now a Regional manager making a more than livable wage.

I personally started delivering pizzas at Domino's while still in High School. I was a Store Manager making a livable wage immediately following my graduation. That opportunity still exists.

Those who continue to work at low paying jobs do it because they don't have a choice, and pretending they do is just willful ignorance.

So you are sticking with an incorrect generality and if anyone feels different then they are ignorant? Nice. Insulting someone with a differing opinion is the lowest form of debate and shows weakness in your knowledge of the subject matter.

FYI: most people getting government help are working, not parked somewhere, taking the easy way out.

That may be true, I never stated otherwise. The point was that the system allows some people to park and abuse the system.

One more misconception: government aid is granted by the states, in cooperation with the feds, and neither is what anyone would call generous towards the poor, especially since the big reform mandated when Clinton was POTUS. There are strict limits on how long one can collect welfare, and lifetime caps, and job/education requirements as well.

Blah, Blah, Blah. You are starting to sound like a liberal politician. 5 years is a long time to park plus many entitlements are income based and can go on indefinitely.
Yes, each entitlement by itself is not generous to the poor and shouldn't be but you cannot be totally naive to how people play the system to maximize their Government handouts.
Here is how it can work in one household:

Grandma is on Soc. Security, disability and food stamps
Mom is on welfare, food stamps and housing assistance
2 kids are on S.S.I. ( asthma and ADHD )
Boyfriend is on welfare And food stamps (they don't get married and don't report his living there)
Boyfriend sells extra food stamps in the parking lot down the street
Boyfriend works "off the books" doing landscaping a few days a week
Grandma likes to knit hats, gloves and scarfs which Mom sells at the Flea Market on weekends

All of the non generous entitlements add up to a decent income allowing them to hang out and watch cable on the big screen when they are not driving the Escalade to the mall.

If you think they wanted to give poor people more money, then you're just plain off your rocker, is all I can say.

Why would they want to give poor people more money?

 

[Turtle]

Broke is a state of being, poverty is a state of mind.

 

[Humble2drive]

It sounds like you are describing a socialist economy as that statement does not apply to our country.

That statement didn't apply . . .

**** INTERMISSION ****

Cheri,

You made the first step properly in attempting to create a quote box. You just forgot to put a command similar to this at the end [\QUOTE]
That would have completed the process of creating a quote box. See below

Here are the steps to follow:
1) Click on the "Reply with Quote" button as you did
2) The entire post will appear on your screen and if you don't change anything then the entire post will be inside a quote box when you hit "Submit"
3) If you want to break the post down into separate quotes and address specific statements follow steps 4 and 5.
4) Notice the first command

That marks the beginning of your quote box.
You can copy that (including brackets) and paste it before any word, sentence or paragraph that you want to quote. That will be the start of your quote boxes.
5) Then notice the command at the end of the post similar to this [\QUOTE]
You can copy that and paste it at the end of your quote. That will complete the quote box.

Good luck, now back to the thread.

 

[layoutshooter]

Your answer touches on the cause, but not the effect.

Why was this man called Lazy? He was just asking for some help, A helping hand.

I don't know the guy, don't know if he is lazy. Chances are, if he has been out of work for more than a year, he is. What skills? Education level? Has he expanded his job search beyond where he lives now?

My brother's business dried up. He had a bunch of other "family" problems to deal with at the same time. He spent several hours a day, searching. He found a job, took about 4 months of hard work to find it. He moved from the Detroit area to Florida for work. Good job too, and he is 60 years old. One has to do what one has to do.

My niece, and her useless husband, have not worked ANY kind of job, for longer than 4 or 5 months for years. They do NOTHING to upgrade skills. NOTHING to upgrade their education. They rent, so they are not tied to a house so moving is easier than if they owned, but they won't move for work. They DO have money for tatoos, cigarettes, "pot" etc. They have internet, (not for job hunting), several cell phones, HDTV and cable. They do it ALL on public "assistance". ALL this "help" and their kids don't have shoes that fit. They blame the government and "mean" people for their "problems". I guess they don't have a working mirror in the apartment, paid for by you and I, cause they sure to pay for it.

Their's is not an uncommon story, and that is why people are fed up. $500 BILLION is 551,000 TONS of money, and yet the problem exists. Government programs are the cause of the problem, not the solution. IF, able bodied adults want to find out why they are unemployed, long term, they need to first look in the mirror before seeking assistance.

No one is OWED a job. No one said it's easy, it's not now and it never has been. There are challenges, but overcoming challenge improves the individual and the species.

 

[davekc]

Of course they're not tossing money into the red kettle for a tax writeoff - if they wanted it, they'd need a receipt. And it's the ones who have the receipts that make me angry, because that isn't charity, it's quid pro quo.
You mention the scams perpetrated against welfare, and no one denies that it happens, that's human nature: some people are liars and cheats. Those people don't represent the majority, though, [except on conservative sites], and to counter, how many billions of dollars are fraudulently obtained by service providers? Check out the statistics, see who is really scamming the system, and where's the outrage over that? Does the company that bills Medicare for millions of claims it invented get any "gotcha!" publicity?
The hypocrisy is stunning.
And the elephant in the room is that so many people need help, just to feed the kids [the ones they had before their decent paying job vanished], because the US continues to reward the wrong people.
Please don't blame it on the corporate tax rate, either: it was a helluva lot higher decades ago, when people could support themselves and their families, educate their kids, and save for retirement, just by being willing to work hard.
The blame is complex, and the solutions must be too - but if some way isn't found to eradicate the reality of being "working poor", we will revert to feudalism.

Since we have moved to a global economy and we have a capitalistic system, you are going to have winners and losers. If someone has kids and lost their job, I don't believe it is the responsibility of a single person to subsidize their situation over a protracted period of time. A whole lot of options but most start with personal responsibility. People are wanting a entry level job and expecting the pay of a skilled position. Just not going to happen.
Many positions whether, heating and air, welders, electricians and plumbers are all looking for people. Most will pay a apprenticeship program or they can get a student loan for a short period.
These are short programs, not four year degree deals. The jobs are out there IF they are looking and most of these programs are way short of participants.
As for corporations and tax, much of it has changed. Because the landscape has changed. Most US corporations now have foreign competitors that didn't exist in previous years. Technology and the internet has changed that. Remember Al Gore invented the latter. Keep in mind that corporate tax has declined, but has been replaced with state taxes, regulations, and new mandates. Some like to leave that out of the picture. Then you have the political side. Many corporations all the way to Hollywood benefit from these relationships. Don't hold your breath on a change anytime soon.
Probably should mention, corporate charity can be good. For example, take a place like Saint Jude's Children's Hospital. They receive all kinds of corporate donations. Better a direct money stream going to the source verses running it through the government only to have most of it wasted.

 

[layoutshooter]

Since we have moved to a global economy and we have a capitalistic system, you are going to have winners and losers. If someone has kids and lost their job, I don't believe it is the responsibility of a single person to subsidize their situation over a protracted period of time. A whole lot of options but most start with personal responsibility. People are wanting a entry level job and expecting the pay of a skilled position. Just not going to happen.
Many positions whether, heating and air, welders, electricians and plumbers are all looking for people. Most will pay a apprenticeship program or they can get a student loan for a short period.
These are short programs, not four year degree deals. The jobs are out there IF they are looking and most of these programs are way short of participants.
As for corporations and tax, much of it has changed. Because the landscape has changed. Most US corporations now have foreign competitors that didn't exist in previous years. Technology and the internet has changed that. Remember Al Gore invented the latter. Keep in mind that corporate tax has declined, but has been replaced with state taxes, regulations, and new mandates. Some like to leave that out of the picture. Then you have the political side. Many corporations all the way to Hollywood benefit from these relationships. Don't hold your breath on a change anytime soon.
Probably should mention, corporate charity can be good. For example, take a place like Saint Jude's Children's Hospital. They receive all kinds of corporate donations. Better a direct money stream going to the source verses running it through the government only to have most of it wasted.

Also keep in mind that the United States has one of the HIGHEST corporate tax rates in the world.

Much of the job losses can be blamed squarely on the backs of Obama's policies. Michigan is having to close down coal generation plants, hundreds of jobs going away, never to be replaced. There was going to be another nuke plant built. Many were given apprenticeships, spent 3 years in training, for the purpose of working at the plant. The EPA shut it down, before they even started building it, ALL of those people over 400, lost their jobs. They would have been employed there for their lifetime. That list, of people losing jobs to administration is growing by leaps and bounds. My buddy, who at one time had several different businesses and as many as 600 working for him at one time, is closing his last business because he is fed up with the government BS he is forced to deal with. From 600 jobs, to 0. Mostly lost to government regulation and intereference.

 

[davekc]

That is why many move income and assets out of the country. If you create a hostile environment, you likely will get hostile results.

 

[layoutshooter]

That is why many move income and assets out of the country. If you create a hostile environment, you likely will get hostile results.

That is EXACTLY what is happening. Those who are being hurt the most are those who work. They are being hurt by a "party" that "CLAIMS" to look out for the working man and then do everything in their power to create an environment that is going to drive investment, and jobs with it, away. It is working.

 

[Ragman]

If only is was all so simple.

This is a very complex issue, with very complex problems.

I propose the only way this can be resolved is with - - - wait for it - - - - A good old fashioned HUNKER!!!

 

[layoutshooter]

If only is was all so simple.

This is a very complex issue, with very complex problems.

I propose the only way this can be resolved is with - - - wait for it - - - - A good old fashioned HUNKER!!!

A hunker would help, BUT, none of the duds in Washington that are causing these problems would EVER show up, and if they did, they would not listen. They would likely outlaw the bonfire!

 

[layoutshooter]

A hunker would help, BUT, none of the duds in Washington that are causing these problems would EVER show up, and if they did, they would not listen. They would likely outlaw the bonfire!

The problems are not that complex. They are just being sold that way to us by the media to keep the powers that be IN power. THAT is the problem, left to our own devices the American people would fix this mess. It's government in the way that is causing ALL of our problems.

 

[Ragman]

The problems are not that complex. They are just being sold that way to us by the media to keep the powers that be IN power. THAT is the problem, left to our own devices the American people would fix this mess. It's government in the way that is causing ALL of our problems.

Sorry to disappoint you, but yes it is a very complex issue.

The first thing we need to do to get it under control is stop all the chest thumping and name calling.