CIA Workers Killed in Afghanistan as U.S. Steps Up Spying Role

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"As a first premise, I would submit that interference in the affairs of a foreign government, that has been popularly-elected in a fair and uncorrupt manner"

We don't even have elections like that in this country. The last one is no exception. Just about everything involved with our political system is corrupt. Kinda wishful thinking that you a playing with there. LOL free and non-corrupt elections. You could have your own late night TV comedy show with lines like that!!! :p Great sense of humor, silly, but funny!!! :D
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
As mentioned above, there is a lesson to be learned from this chapter in history; I can't help but wonder if our leaders have the will and resolve to even study the chapter, and think "Somalia" or "Yemen" as they read it.
Heheheh ... you hit the nail on the head - and not just only with respect to studying that one chapter of history, but all of history in general.

Add to that, that our leaders are predisposed to largely see the world only from our perspective ..... and it's a deadly combination.

And no, I'm not suggesting that the US should colonize either of those two places - just that serious military action yields results.
I know that you aren't - and I don't disagree - it can. However, it definitely ain't anything to be used frivolously (not that you were saying that)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
We don't even have elections like that in this country. The last one is no exception. Just about everything involved with our political system is corrupt. Kinda wishful thinking that you a playing with there.
Well Layout, I forgot that you were part of the audience (and thereby assumed that most folks reading here would "get it"), consequently I failed to draw quite as complete a picture as appears to be required - allow me to do so now:

"that has been popularly-elected in a relatively fair and uncorrupt manner"

That fix it for you ?

BTW, in case the logical conclusion of your implied refutation has escaped you, allow me to elaborate it for your (and others) inspection:

Your premise appears to rest on the following:

1. That in foreign lands, elections are inherently unfair and corrupt.

2. That No. 1 above requires US foreign intervention in the domestic affairs of other countries, to protect "our interests". This, in the past, has taken the form of political assassinations, subverting such elections, installing puppet regimes and fascist tyrannts , and other similar nasty stuff.

3. That in our country, elections are similarly inherently unfair and corrupt.

Ergo, it must therefore be a necessity for our government (whatever it might be at the time) to intervene in a similar manner in our internal domestic affairs.

Yeah, you just keep on preachin' that religion ......
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
First off, there are few other countries in the world that have a history of freedom. Most of Europe has been ruled for a thousand years or so. Even those that now elect governments are still controlled by the same incestous families that have controlled Europe for eons.

China has no freedom. Japan sorta does but still would follow royal family if told to. Few in the Middle East have any history of freedom. That is just how it is.

As to the mess we have in this country, too much garbage being taught in school, the Soviets did a very good job of infiltrating our schools and colleges. Their plan is working to a "T".

They did their best to insure that the number of "Sheeple" grow. It serves their purposes.
 

wimpy007

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army
Rlent, you say I quote Jack Nickolson, what are you talking about ???, If you read the posting between Layout and my self and what you wrote we are close in agreement, we look at thinks from a military viewpoint you on the other hand look at the situation as a citizen as you should.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am not sure that RLENT understands that the intelligence agencies work on orders from outside of the agency. They "take orders" not make them up. Look to who was in what office at the time of the 'alleged" crimes.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Also, the agencies take orders from different authorities. NSA and the military intell branches take their orders from the Department of Defense. CIA from the Executive Branch. Treasury, and DOE from the Executive Branch as well, as does the Secret Service.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rlent, you say I quote Jack Nickolson, what are you talking about ???,
Nicholson played Jessup:

Jessep: "You want answers?"

Kaffee: "I want the truth!"

Jessep: "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?"

..... from A Few Good Men, written by Aaron Sorkin

There was another quote in reply to me, earlier in the thread by someone else, from this fictional story.

The story is a juxtaposition of militarism vs. the rule of law - and which IMHO, to some extent, glorifies militarism - although Jessup, who portrayed the lawlessness of that militarism, is ultimately seen for the criminal that he was, willing to subvert the rule of law, for what he considered to be justifiable ends (security)

One should not construe from the statement immediately above, that I view all all military personnel and military activities as criminal - I don't - indeed, I recognize that sometimes such actions are necessary to ensure the survival of a people, a nation .... when threatened.

However having said that, I also think that Justice Robert H. Jackson, former Attorney General of the United States, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, and the chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials might have been onto something:

"If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

And:

"If we can cultivate in the world the idea that aggressive war-making is the way to the prisoner's dock rather than the way to honors, we will have accomplished something toward making the peace more secure."

If you read the posting between Layout and my self and what you wrote we are close in agreement,
Yup - I actually think that's a fair assessment of it - it's actually hard for me to believe that it could possibly be otherwise, given you and Layout's apparent backgrounds.

we look at thinks from a military viewpoint you on the other hand look at the situation as a citizen as you should.
Which is understandable, on both counts.

One however must keep firmly in mind which body is senior to the other, under our polity, our system of government.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I am not sure that RLENT understands that the intelligence agencies work on orders from outside of the agency.
Oh Layout, I do indeed understand it :D

They "take orders" not make them up. Look to who was in what office at the time of the 'alleged" crimes.
I'm perfectly willing to hold civilian authority, in the political realm, at least as culpable (if not more so) than anyone in a uniform.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"One however must keep firmly in mind which body is senior to the other, under our polity, our system of government"

There is no one who understands exactly who is in charge in this country more than the intell agencies. My work was hampered by totally stupid laws and rules that served no real purpose other than to press that point home. It often could have or maybe did cost innocent lives.

We did not set our priorities, congress did. We did not set our budgets, congress did. We did what we were told, period, and by the way, we did it very well and within the bounds set upon us. That is the way it was and is now.

If CIA was involved with things, look first to those who told them to do it. They are the ones who have the ultimate responsibility.

All systemic problems start from the top down. A very good example of that is the clown that King Putz appointed head of the CIA, a guy that is up to his neck in intell messes and cover ups. Want to see how things get out of control? Start there. This so called president, as some others before him, see the CIA as his servant and not the servant of the People.

I would love to know just how many of the really "good guys" have left because of him, as I did when Clinton was elected. You see, words like Duty, Honor and Integrity really mean something to me, wimpy007 and the vast majority of those I served with.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Rlent, you say I quote Jack Nickolson, what are you talking about ???, If you read the posting between Layout and my self and what you wrote we are close in agreement, we look at thinks from a military viewpoint you on the other hand look at the situation as a citizen as you should.

Just as a side note. Last time I checked most of our Military are also Citizens. It's quite possible to be both at the same time, and act like it.
 

wimpy007

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army
Rlent, real intel is NOT a movie, written by some script writter, it is real life.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
And in some cases..........death

Would they be any more dead than, a cop, a firefighter, infantryman, tanker, scout? I doubt that they have any harder job than a lrrp, seal, SF, forward air controller. hell the list goes on and on.
 

wimpy007

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army
I'm affraid I don't understanding your posting, no one said anything about danger in intel. After 13 years in the military I retired and went into Law enforcement for 22 years. I have served in uniform of one kind or another all my adult like and very proud of my service to this Nation and the City I served.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rlent, real intel is NOT a movie, written by some script writter, it is real life.
Precisely - which is why I had a real hard time understanding why someone (two individuals - yourself and another) would glibly quote from some piece of fiction, in reply to me.

It wasn't me that was singin' that tune (although I am perfectly capable of explaining what the story was about) - on the contrary, I was referencing (in my comments) real people, ones who founded a nation - ours.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm affraid I don't understanding your posting, no one said anything about danger in intel.
You're kidding right ?

Look at what you said immediately above jamin's comment:

"And in some cases..........death"

After 13 years in the military I retired and went into Law enforcement for 22 years. I have served in uniform of one kind or another all my adult life and very proud of my service to this Nation and the City I served.
Well, assuming that you served honorably (and I have no reason to assume otherwise), thank you for your service.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
This so called president, as some others before him, see the CIA as his servant and not the servant of the People.
Layout - you and I are absolutely on the same page on this one.

I would love to know just how many of the really "good guys" have left because of him, as I did when Clinton was elected.
Dunno about Obama, or Clinton really, but I from what I understand from recent reading, there was a fairly significant "purge" under Bush - as a consequence of intelligence officers standing up against the manipulation of intel to get us into Iraq, and against the mischaracterization of 9/11 as an intel failure - that it was allowed to happen was a failure of political will (on the part of multiple administrations)

Michael Scheuer was one of those individuals. After reading what he has written, there is little doubt in my mind that the Agency lost an extremely capable individual, whose advice and recommendations, if they had been followed may have prevented 9/11.

You see, words like Duty, Honor and Integrity really mean something to me, wimpy007 and the vast majority of those I served with.
Fair enough - just don't kid yourself that you - or those in the military or intel services - have some sort of monopoly on those words, and the concepts that they represent.

I consider the individuals who gave their lives in Tiananmen Square, protesting a repressive regime, clearly to have had an extremely high sense of Duty, and to have had no less Integrity, and to have been no less Honorable than a US serviceman who gave his life in defense of our nation.

One does not need to take up arms in order to be acquainted with - or live - those ideals.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"One however must keep firmly in mind which body is senior to the other, under our polity, our system of government"

There is no one who understands exactly who is in charge in this country more than the intell agencies. My work was hampered by totally stupid laws and rules that served no real purpose other than to press that point home. It often could have or maybe did cost innocent lives.

We did not set our priorities, congress did. We did not set our budgets, congress did. We did what we were told, period, and by the way, we did it very well and within the bounds set upon us. That is the way it was and is now.

If CIA was involved with things, look first to those who told them to do it. They are the ones who have the ultimate responsibility.

All systemic problems start from the top down. A very good example of that is the clown that King Putz appointed head of the CIA, a guy that is up to his neck in intell messes and cover ups. Want to see how things get out of control? Start there. This so called president, as some others before him, see the CIA as his servant and not the servant of the People.

I would love to know just how many of the really "good guys" have left because of him, as I did when Clinton was elected. You see, words like Duty, Honor and Integrity really mean something to me, wimpy007 and the vast majority of those I served with.
The problems in the Intelligence community can all be traced back directly to the culture and attitude of Allan Dulles. Everything the Intelligence community does now is a consequence of his actions and the cultural foundation he laid. That includes everything from the secret, undisclosed covert operations, to the clamps and restrictions that the Intelligence community must now operate within.

I'm one of those who believe that there are some things the American people at large do not, in fact, need to know, that some intelligence, analysis and operations should remain secret and secure, despite the fact that the government and everyone connected with it is evil and are covering up something or another. It's a double-edged sword that we have to be able to learn how to live with.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
I'm affraid I don't understanding your posting, no one said anything about danger in intel. After 13 years in the military I retired and went into Law enforcement for 22 years. I have served in uniform of one kind or another all my adult like and very proud of my service to this Nation and the City I served.

Unlike a few people here ( there is nothing wrong with the way they do it, I just do it different :D) on EOL I will often post not solely on what someone wrote once, but if I 'know' the poster I try to figure if what he said might have been out of character and respond accordingly. Being fairly new to the Soapbox I have met a new group of members (new to me, not necessarily new to EOL) and have kept on the sidelines when I think they posted something out of character. If I feel the need to respond to someone that I'm not familiar with I often times will look up some of their previous posts. (it's helped me put my response in the correct tone) Anyway I looked at some previous posts of wimpy to get a feel for his posting style and was rather perplexed when I saw this:

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/general-expediter-forum/38698-its-time-play-whos-truck.html#post331277

I'll tell you how long i've been in this crazy business. After a 10 + year stent in the Army with service in Korea and then Nam I deceided it was not the life for me. I started driving in 1963,it was much different back then, but here I am still at it, my wife of 55 years is right next to me.
Can you help me out with this? I'm sure that there is an easy explanation that I'm just to tired to see.
 
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