A couple of quick questions about driving in a cargo van. I 've read back through the previous posts, and know about not having to log in a cargo van, unless you have a haz-mat load. First question: Say I'm driving a cargo van hauling regular loads for the first couple of weeks in a month, then up pops a good load in the third week, but it's a haz-mat. I've got my haz-mat endorsement so I accept it. So I pull out my logbook and log the load, after I finish the load do I put the logbook away and go back to not logging or do I have to keep the log going for a certain number of days after finishing the haz-mat load? Does the company just want a copy of the log while on the haz-mat load? Second question: If I understand right, a haz-mat load has to carried in a separate area divided from the driver's area. In a cargo van, I would assume a factory installed sleeper would be considered separated from the cargo compartment. What about just a home installed bulkhead between the driver and freight area? Personally, I wouldn't cherish the thought of sleeping in the vehicle with a haz-mat that close, a C or D unit would be a lot better at least your load would be in a box separate from the cab. Tom.
Cargo van logging question..................
- Thread starter tlang563
- Start date
As an under 10,001# GVWR van operator, you aren't subject to logging nor do you fall under the DOT regulations...Until that moment you accept a HAZMAT load with a gross weight 1000# or more. You need to create a single log page showing off duty for seven days then start your next log page on the day of the HAZMAT run as off duty until the run offer, then on-duty with a pre-trip insp. followed by driving to the pickup. The moment you deliver and remove your placards, you log off duty for the remainder of the day. No more logging required until the next loggable event. Send the two, or more, pages in to the carrier.
Moot:
We might have a disagreement here.
My contention is that the driver of a cargo van, not hauling HAZMAT at any time during the past seven days, is Off-Duty for the purpose of logging. The driver does not log any work related activity on the day of the load until such time as dispatched. The driver is also Off-Duty the moment, after delivery, that the placards are removed.
Agree? Disagree?
We might have a disagreement here.
My contention is that the driver of a cargo van, not hauling HAZMAT at any time during the past seven days, is Off-Duty for the purpose of logging. The driver does not log any work related activity on the day of the load until such time as dispatched. The driver is also Off-Duty the moment, after delivery, that the placards are removed.
Agree? Disagree?
Terry:
When I worked for an LTL company city drivers were not required to log. But if they took a weekend linehaul run they filled out a form(which I am trying to scan and download even as I type) that tallied hours on duty last 7 days.
I believe all hours worked for a motor carrier must be accounted for.
I am attempting to reinstall the sofware for my scanner. If successful I will send you a copy of the form. I have used it for over 20 years and always sent it in with my logs. Only once did I show it to a D.O.T. officer at a scale. I had gone from a cargo van to a straight truck for one trip.
When I worked for an LTL company city drivers were not required to log. But if they took a weekend linehaul run they filled out a form(which I am trying to scan and download even as I type) that tallied hours on duty last 7 days.
I believe all hours worked for a motor carrier must be accounted for.
I am attempting to reinstall the sofware for my scanner. If successful I will send you a copy of the form. I have used it for over 20 years and always sent it in with my logs. Only once did I show it to a D.O.T. officer at a scale. I had gone from a cargo van to a straight truck for one trip.
I posted on this same quandary last year: if we're not required to log every day, and then we accept a Hazmat load that requires logging, accounting for the last seven days cannot be done accurately - I doubt I could recreate yesterday, as a log requires, and get it right - how could I do the last seven days? Orientation by the carriers just skims the issue, saying you must account for the prior seven days, but they don't say how you do that, and orientation is so full of questions, especially during the Hazmat & logging parts, that the specifics on HOW one accounts for the prior seven days aren't asked or answered.
Terry's rationale, that as far as logging goes, you were off duty, is the only one that makes any sense, in expediting. I only wish I'd heard it before I got put OOS for a 10 hr break, when the scalemaster checked my log on a Hazmat load, and I'd logged that day, but nothing for the prior seven. I didn't want to falsify the log, and didn't know how to account for the prior seven days, otherwise. Before posting the question afterwards, the only answer I ever got was "Just make it up!" which I'd rather not do on a legal document. I even aked the scalemaster how I'm expected to account for seven days that I wasn't logging, and his response was to log all the time, just in case! Terry's reasoning is the only one that makes any sense in a situation that cargo van drivers are faced with, when taking a loggable load, IMO.
Terry's rationale, that as far as logging goes, you were off duty, is the only one that makes any sense, in expediting. I only wish I'd heard it before I got put OOS for a 10 hr break, when the scalemaster checked my log on a Hazmat load, and I'd logged that day, but nothing for the prior seven. I didn't want to falsify the log, and didn't know how to account for the prior seven days, otherwise. Before posting the question afterwards, the only answer I ever got was "Just make it up!" which I'd rather not do on a legal document. I even aked the scalemaster how I'm expected to account for seven days that I wasn't logging, and his response was to log all the time, just in case! Terry's reasoning is the only one that makes any sense in a situation that cargo van drivers are faced with, when taking a loggable load, IMO.
Terry's reasoning is correct. If you are not required to log then just put down on the previous sheet 7 days of off duty. Doesn't matter if you drove 65 hours in that time frame as you are not required to log.
I think it is just a question of time until OTR cargo vans have to log
One of these days some cargo van will ram a school bus with fatilities,an investigation will prove that the driver had been driving for 2 days straight, and there will be all kinds of ramifications brought on by PATT and Crash and CNN
I think it is just a question of time until OTR cargo vans have to log
One of these days some cargo van will ram a school bus with fatilities,an investigation will prove that the driver had been driving for 2 days straight, and there will be all kinds of ramifications brought on by PATT and Crash and CNN
arkjarhead
Veteran Expediter
if you can consider driving a cargo van off duty then i wonder why you are supposed to log washing a truck or changing the oil as on duty not driving? anyhow i would show the last 8 days as off duty put all of my recipets and paperwork from those days in the mail to the house or carrier and tell the dot i was visiting family in what ever town because we had a death in the family. pulled that one a couple of times to get my 70 back.
ARK:
I did am leaving your post here as an example, a BAD EXAMPLE, of things that are appropriate for inclusion in a serious discussion about the application of law. You repeatedly talk about your illegal vehicle operation and suggest that other people can follow your lead by failing to take a 34 hr break, falsifying log books and lying to law enforcement authorities. I'm not so naive to think that folks aren't a bit careless with the truth when it comes to log keeping, but this is not the forum to promote that activity.
I did am leaving your post here as an example, a BAD EXAMPLE, of things that are appropriate for inclusion in a serious discussion about the application of law. You repeatedly talk about your illegal vehicle operation and suggest that other people can follow your lead by failing to take a 34 hr break, falsifying log books and lying to law enforcement authorities. I'm not so naive to think that folks aren't a bit careless with the truth when it comes to log keeping, but this is not the forum to promote that activity.
MOOT:
I think the difference is because you were driving LTL in a truck that was subject to DOT regulations all the time; those regulations provided for dispensing with the log keeping when you ran local.
A cargo van is not regulated by the DOT unless carrying HAZMAT, and the driver of any size vehicle carrying a reportable amount of HAZMAT must log, even when doing local work.
Any cargo van driver may log all the time in the event they want to have 7 days of logs, each page signed on the appropriate date, but why bother with unnecessary paperwork. Also, I don't think you can legally backdate a log sheet and sign it as being accurate.
I think the difference is because you were driving LTL in a truck that was subject to DOT regulations all the time; those regulations provided for dispensing with the log keeping when you ran local.
A cargo van is not regulated by the DOT unless carrying HAZMAT, and the driver of any size vehicle carrying a reportable amount of HAZMAT must log, even when doing local work.
Any cargo van driver may log all the time in the event they want to have 7 days of logs, each page signed on the appropriate date, but why bother with unnecessary paperwork. Also, I don't think you can legally backdate a log sheet and sign it as being accurate.
Therein lies the difficulty: if you work a regular schedule, providing hours worked the last seven days is easy - but we don't have anything remotely resembling a regular schedule, leaving the choice of making it up, (which I think a very bad idea, on a legal document), or logging off duty. I know which one I prefer, but I learned it from Terry, not my carrier, & then only after getting put OOS for 10 hrs, and consequently losing a nice run.
A few years back when I drove for a company I drove a 25500 lbs straight truck and a pickup. I was required to log the straight truck the normal way and the pickup was logged just as on duty. I didnt think this was right but I did it anyway. My logs were checked one day by dot at a weigh station in eastern pa. and they told me that I was logging correctly, that once you start logs because of the straight truck you have to log the pickup time also. Now read fmcsa part 395.2, on duty time 8. If you pickup a hazmat load and log the previous 7 days as of duty you are falsifying a log. If you are involved in a accident with a hazmat load and logs showing the previous 7 days off duty but were actually hauling loads the lawyers will have a field day with this one. You may say I am wrong but I guarantee you some day someone will pay dearly for that 7 day off duty log sheet.
If drivers aren't required to log, why would they? And if they don't, until required to, how can they be expected to provide an accurate account of the prior seven days? That's just an unreasonable demand, impossible to satisfy. I prefer to be law abiding, but it has to be possible to do so, eh?
>You must also account for total hours on duty for the last 7
>days.
You're right , Moot http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu...ext.asp?rule_toc=764§ion=395.2§ion_toc=1939 . If somebody flipped burgers for 40 hours and drove truck on weekends they'd have to log the burger flipping as on duty . I've heard Canada requires logs for the past 14 days . Regulations state a vehicle of any size used to transport hazardous materials is classified as a CMV and requires logging . That could be interpeted if it ever transport hazmat it is considered a CMV whether it is carrying hazmat or not . A cargo van driver with a hazmat endorsement could be considered operating a CMV. This could be a good question for Ask The Law . http://www.olblueusa.org/AskTheLaw/QA.html
>days.
You're right , Moot http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu...ext.asp?rule_toc=764§ion=395.2§ion_toc=1939 . If somebody flipped burgers for 40 hours and drove truck on weekends they'd have to log the burger flipping as on duty . I've heard Canada requires logs for the past 14 days . Regulations state a vehicle of any size used to transport hazardous materials is classified as a CMV and requires logging . That could be interpeted if it ever transport hazmat it is considered a CMV whether it is carrying hazmat or not . A cargo van driver with a hazmat endorsement could be considered operating a CMV. This could be a good question for Ask The Law . http://www.olblueusa.org/AskTheLaw/QA.html
Fastrod. My #11 response was comparable to your situation. Your On-Duty and Driving status was determined by the larger of the two trucks you were driving, so the PU duty was just an extension of the duty in the big truck, much the same as if you were lumping or maintaining the big truck, you had to log the duty hours.
Your reference to FMCSA part 395.2 only applies to vehicles over 10,000# and any vehicle while transporting HAZMAT. The regulations do not apply to cargo vans at any other time; therefore, no logs, at any other time.
No one can predict what interpretation a DOT officer will apply to this situation. This, as with any other trucking rule can be misused and abused.
Your reference to FMCSA part 395.2 only applies to vehicles over 10,000# and any vehicle while transporting HAZMAT. The regulations do not apply to cargo vans at any other time; therefore, no logs, at any other time.
No one can predict what interpretation a DOT officer will apply to this situation. This, as with any other trucking rule can be misused and abused.
Then cargo van drivers would be required to log now, because there is no accurate way to recreate the prior seven days otherwise, in a job without any sort of scheduled hours.
I'd like an 'official' answer, too, but no one can make sense of the way the laws are written, and the answer seems to depend on how it's interpreted - always a scary thought.
I'd like an 'official' answer, too, but no one can make sense of the way the laws are written, and the answer seems to depend on how it's interpreted - always a scary thought.
Part 395.2 on duty (8) Performing any other work in the capacity, employ, or service of a motor carrier would include driving a van without hazmat. There is no difference between a straight truck and a cargo van with hazmat, they both have to log. And according to regs, once you start logging you have to log every day. Even tho the van is under 10,001 lbs it is covered by no. 8